Which Half is Better

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:cool: Sweet.

I think that's an indication that the interval is both hard enough and long enough to elicit the proper response. I'm not sure starting HR has much to do with it, although it should serve to reduce the necessary ramp-up time slightly.
I think he meant as a finishing HR

I wouldn't say that's the best way to train VO2max, but that wasn't your question was it? ;) If you're only going to do a single interval, then do it on the longer end of the L5 spectrum (ie, ~6-8 minutes) rather than the shorter. That'll help ensure that your anaerobic resources are tapped out and your aerobic processes have to fully ramp up to carry the load.
6 to 8 minutes at L5 will make me want to puke and that just takes the joy out of it. I do like 3x4s but when I train 4 days a week I get the take it or leave it attitude. I guess my goal is to find a workout that will yeild FTP improvement (even +1 watt a month is a motivator) and still have me hungry to ride.

6 to 8 minutes at L5 will make me want to puke and that just takes the joy out of it. I do like 3x4s but when I train 4 days a week I get the take it or leave it attitude. I guess my goal is to find a workout that will yeild FTP improvement (even +1 watt a month is a motivator) and still have me hungry to ride.
I hear ya. If you figure out an easy way to train VO2max, write a book about it. ;)

How can you have enough left at the end of a 20 minute interval (of which it seems like he's doing 3) just mess around like this? If you're not going hard enough throughout the 20 minutes such that a revisit of the ol' lunch is in order then you might as well just go for a single 1 hour ride and not bother with the farting around during the rest periods. :p

It is possible it is similar to a three minute kick at the end of a 1 hour time trial. I decided not to do a jump start on the second interval now because I can get plenty of L6 on the commute to work it is a short ride. I did a 3x4 after a 2x20 on Tuesdays for about 5 or 6 weeks about a month back and saw FTP improve from 267 to 280w. A 3x4 is a bigger pill to swallow but I will probably go back to that if this doesn't work.

How can you have enough left at the end of a 20 minute interval (of which it seems like he's doing 3) just mess around like this? If you're not going hard enough throughout the 20 minutes such that a revisit of the ol' lunch is in order then you might as well just go for a single 1 hour ride and not bother with the farting around during the rest periods. :p

How can you have enough left at the end of a 20 minute interval (of which it seems like he's doing 3) just mess around like this? If you're not going hard enough throughout the 20 minutes such that a revisit of the ol' lunch is in order then you might as well just go for a single 1 hour ride and not bother with the farting around during the rest periods. :p
Physiologically, 3x20 is similar to 1x60. Mentally, though, it feels much easier and leaves a little spunk left for harder periods at the end of each interval. The energy expended during those little pushes doesn't make a significant difference to the overall power level of the set.

You are starting to sound like the old days when I was a gym rat and you only had a good workout if you puked.

I do agree though that if you are not feeling something from the 20 minute intervals you should either extend them or raise the wattage. I usually prefer to first extend them, than make a judgement call if next time I should go a bit higher.

I would not call what Tyson does farting around and I notice many times he will do two hours at 220 watts so 3x20 SST to me is not farting around. I finally was able to get that number on last Saturday of 220 for 2 hours.

-js


How can you have enough left at the end of a 20 minute interval (of which it seems like he's doing 3) just mess around like this? If you're not going hard enough throughout the 20 minutes such that a revisit of the ol' lunch is in order then you might as well just go for a single 1 hour ride and not bother with the farting around during the rest periods. :p

It is possible it is similar to a three minute kick at the end of a 1 hour time trial. I decided not to do a jump start on the second interval now because I can get plenty of L6 on the commute to work it is a short ride. I did a 3x4 after a 2x20 on Tuesdays for about 5 or 6 weeks about a month back and saw FTP improve from 267 to 280w. A 3x4 is a bigger pill to swallow but I will probably go back to that if this doesn't work.
If you've ridden 60 minutes "on the rivet" how do you have anything left? At 50 minutes you should be about ready to sell your soul to the Devil and yack whatever you ate a couple of hours ago all over the pavement. Getting out of the saddle at the end of a 25 mile time trial is almost as much a case of keeping things going as it is getting the damned ride done and dusted...

If you still have enough beans in the bag to purposely think about "sprinting" then you've left too much meat simmering on the grill....

I'm not sure what your definition of a sprint is but my power rarely gets higher than 450 watts max for a few seconds at the end of my workout. When I'm fresh my max sprint power is about 1,233 watts which I would agree is not possible at the end of a 3x20.

If you've ridden 60 minutes "on the rivet" how do you have anything left? At 50 minutes you should be about ready to sell your soul to the Devil and yack whatever you ate a couple of hours ago all over the pavement. Getting out of the saddle at the end of a 25 mile time trial is almost as much a case of keeping things going as it is getting the damned ride done and dusted...

If you still have enough beans in the bag to purposely think about "sprinting" then you've left too much meat simmering on the grill....

I think it may be an issue here of just not using the correct terms. But if "on the rivet" means what it sounds like as I have never used that expression than yes you should be feeling like you left everything on the road with your 3 X 20s but I do not know how long of a break he is taking between intervals as I write this. If he is taking anywhere from 5-10 min breaks at tempo than I can see how he could do a high L4 at the end not really a sprint.

-js

I'm not sure what your definition of a sprint is but my power never gets higher than 450 watts max for a few seconds at the end of my workout. When I'm fresh my max sprint power is about 1,233 watts which I would agree is not possible at the end of a 3x20.

Breaks are 5 minutes long 2 to 3 of them off the bike... At the end of my 3x20 when there is three minutes to go I kick it for an average of about 116% of FTP a good L5 effort. The average for the 3x20 is about 96%FTP including the kick so it is a little less than a 100% TT pace... Maybe I am more conservative during my HOP test because I usually go faster at the end probably a high L4 or low L5 in the last few minutes.

I think it may be an issue here of just not using the correct terms. But if "on the rivet" means what it sounds like as I have never used that expression than yes you should be feeling like you left everything on the road with your 3 X 20s but I do not know how long of a break he is taking between intervals as I write this. If he is taking anywhere from 5-10 min breaks at tempo than I can see how he could do a high L4 at the end not really a sprint.

-js

How can you have enough left at the end of a 20 minute interval (of which it seems like he's doing 3) just mess around like this? If you're not going hard enough throughout the 20 minutes such that a revisit of the ol' lunch is in order then you might as well just go for a single 1 hour ride and not bother with the farting around during the rest periods. :p

you don't seem to have a very good understanding of the utility of interval training... this is kinda surprising since this is not a new concept. it's used so that the work periods can have a higher ave. power than they can from doing a single long effort... or so that the intervals can be done more comfortably at the same power that they could be done in one long effort. the trade off is time.. 5-10 mins for 2x20 or 10-20mins for 3x20.. the benefit is a higher quality, more repeatable, less mentally taxing workout... again if you do 60 mins at power x.. you've still done 60mins at power x (or even better power x + 5W).. if you can do it without chucking up your lunch (i.e. using intervals) that's even better and that is what interval training gives.

Based upon what you have experienced IMHO, I would either extend the 20 minute interval by 5 minutes or more depending on how you feel or move up the wattage of the 20 minute interval as you may have a higher FTP. Also from your description you are doing this outdoors and not on a CT or trainer, correct?

Also based upon your writing I would not get off the bike...this is just my preference as I feel you are better served to see if you can fall back into a tempo pace. I sometimes find for myself that if I give my all on a 20 minute interval, like cresting a hill I sometimes can not readjust quick enough back into a tempo pace when coming over the hill.

-js
Breaks are 5 minutes long 2 to 3 of them off the bike... At the end of my 3x20 when there is three minutes to go I kick it for an average of about 116% of FTP a good L5 effort. The average for the 3x20 is about 96%FTP including the kick so it is a little less than a 100% TT pace... Maybe I am more conservative during my HOP test because I usually go faster at the end probably a high L4 or low L5 in the last few minutes.

When I push with more L4 FTP doesn't budge:( when I pull it with L5 FTP improves:cool: so I'm sticking with the maximal oxygen thingy Dave is talking about.

Based upon what you have experienced IMHO, I would either extend the 20 minute interval by 5 minutes or more depending on how you feel or move up the wattage of the 20 minute interval as you may have a higher FTP. Also from your description you are doing this outdoors and not on a CT or trainer, correct?

Also based upon your writing I would not get off the bike...this is just my preference as I feel you are better served to see if you can fall back into a tempo pace. I sometimes find for myself that if I give my all on a 20 minute interval, like cresting a hill I sometimes can not readjust quick enough back into a tempo pace when coming over the hill.

-js

I have not looked at it that way in push/pull terms. If Dave suggests it I am sure that it would work.

Might be worth a try for me...there may be a mental component involved also.

-js

When I push with more L4 FTP doesn't budge:( when I pull it with L5 FTP improves:cool: so I'm sticking with the maximal oxygen thingy Dave is talking about.

you don't seem to have a very good understanding of the utility of interval training... this is kinda surprising since this is not a new concept. it's used so that the work periods can have a higher ave. power than they can from doing a single long effort... or so that the intervals can be done more comfortably at the same power that they could be done in one long effort. the trade off is time.. 5-10 mins for 2x20 or 10-20mins for 3x20.. the benefit is a higher quality, more repeatable, less mentally taxing workout... again if you do 60 mins at power x.. you've still done 60mins at power x (or even better power x + 5W).. if you can do it without chucking up your lunch (i.e. using intervals) that's even better and that is what interval training gives.I have no clue about intervals - I only started doing them back in.. oh, 1986. My coach only wrote papers and gathered data on them back in the early 1970's - heck maybe even back in the 60s.... So, yeah I'm a complete novice.

http://www.abcc.co.uk/Articles/int_train1.html

There's the little ditty he wrote. Data from 1972... Progressive overload - sometimes rather painful but this is the first time ever in 20 years of cycling that I've heard of intervals for comfort. That session outlined in there was an early summer mid week session - early spring you get a few less, late summer even more.. Those dozen almost 1km efforts will have you wishing that dinner was four and not two hours earlier... LOL

Seeing that he coached riders that would finish top 20 in The Tour, win medals at the Commonwealth games and many national medals, I think the guy knew his stuff. Never stuck in his ways - a nice mix of following what he knew that worked whilst also looking forward to the research that was 'cutting edge' at any given time.

Comfort in training. That almost goes against what preparing for races is all about. I guess if you're not a racing cycling then fair enough, why should you have to deal with the stress of riding on the rivet for 50-or-so minutes in a 25? If you start foo-fooing around doing 3x20 at your one hour pace, how do you get used to that feeling of fatigue that you get after about 40minutes, where your pedalling action is no longer as smooth as it might be? How do you deal with the crouched position for 50minutes at that work load? I can see it being good cardiovascular wise but for everything else....???

If I had asked Malc, "hey, I think I'm going to do 6x20 minutes instead of my 2 hour ride at almost 50mile tt pace cause I want to be comfy" I would have received a look so cold that it would have sent chills through even penguins and I would have had my after race "tea and biscuits" suspended for a month!!! LOL

+1 Well said doc

you don't seem to have a very good understanding of the utility of interval training... this is kinda surprising since this is not a new concept. it's used so that the work periods can have a higher ave. power than they can from doing a single long effort... or so that the intervals can be done more comfortably at the same power that they could be done in one long effort. the trade off is time.. 5-10 mins for 2x20 or 10-20mins for 3x20.. the benefit is a higher quality, more repeatable, less mentally taxing workout... again if you do 60 mins at power x.. you've still done 60mins at power x (or even better power x + 5W).. if you can do it without chucking up your lunch (i.e. using intervals) that's even better and that is what interval training gives.

I think we are dealing here with an issue of emblishment. Meaning I do not think that when a person is doing a 3x20 at SST/L4 he is "farting" around nor do I think that you need to or feel like you need to "heave your dinner" (have you noticed you have a strange fascination with that btw, I believe third post) to feel that you are getting a good training from your session.

But hey you want to puke...be my guest just make sure you atleast have the courtesy to be at the back of the pace line. I deal with enough guys cleaning out their noses already...lol

-js

I have no clue about intervals - I only started doing them back in.. oh, 1986. My coach only wrote papers and gathered data on them back in the early 1970's - heck maybe even back in the 60s.... So, yeah I'm a complete novice.

http://www.abcc.co.uk/Articles/int_train1.html

There's the little ditty he wrote. Data from 1972... Progressive overload - sometimes rather painful but this is the first time ever in 20 years of cycling that I've heard of intervals for comfort. That session outlined in there was an early summer mid week session - early spring you get a few less, late summer even more.. Those dozen almost 1km efforts will have you wishing that dinner was four and not two hours earlier... LOL

Seeing that he coached riders that would finish top 20 in The Tour, win medals at the Commonwealth games and many national medals, I think the guy knew his stuff. Never stuck in his ways - a nice mix of following what he knew that worked whilst also looking forward to the research that was 'cutting edge' at any given time.

Comfort in training. That almost goes against what preparing for races is all about. I guess if you're not a racing cycling then fair enough, why should you have to deal with the stress of riding on the rivet for 50-or-so minutes in a 25? If you start foo-fooing around doing 3x20 at your one hour pace, how do you get used to that feeling of fatigue that you get after about 40minutes, where your pedalling action is no longer as smooth as it might be? How do you deal with the crouched position for 50minutes at that work load? I can see it being good cardiovascular wise but for everything else....???

If I had asked Malc, "hey, I think I'm going to do 6x20 minutes instead of my 2 hour ride at almost 50mile tt pace cause I want to be comfy" I would have received a look so cold that it would have sent chills through even penguins and I would have had my after race "tea and biscuits" suspended for a month!!! LOL

I think we are dealing here with an issue of emblishment.
I would agree. As with so many internet discussions I've seen, the strategy of "winning" seems to involve pushing the opponent's statements as far to the extreme as possible while simultaneously calling them ludicrous for being so extreme.

Wiredued has stated exactly what intensity he's using for his 3x20 workout, and anyone who's ridden at that intensity for that duration knows that it is not comfy nor messing around, nor is it so difficult to elicit vomiting or prevent a short kick in the closing minutes. It's a solid, hard workout, but not extreme in either sense.

One hour pace (close to a true 25mile TT effort) over 20 minutes isn't a walk in the park but it's not going to be overly taxing either, especially not mentally.

Following many months of 'getting the quality miles in' I used to find that the 'mental' issue was probably the biggest limiter when it came to early season racing performances, especially in time trials. Physically, 40 minutes at the same pace is going to feel more uncomfortable that just 20. 60 minutes and it's going to let you know that you've be riding hard.

You can split it down all you like and turn a 4 hour ride into 16x20 minutes I guess and stop for lunch and a potty break whilst you're at it, and while it probably does do a good job of helping aerobic development it's not going to get you used to riding for that period of time. Where's your comfy chair, towel and cool water half way through a race?

I mostly train alone - I just get too many questions about the PowerCranks that it gets distracting... besides, this year is just being spent rolling around in 50x16 and 15 getting the miles in and the weight down. That and suffering like a pig in 30x27 and 24. LOL It's another way to ensure that I don't have to presoak the jersey to remove someone elses baked-on nasal expulsions.

If someone could point me in the direction of a couple of studies (all done by different folk) that proves that something like 16x20mins is as good as 4 hours straight at the same power, then I'll be the first to eat humble pie.

I think we are dealing here with an issue of emblishment. Meaning I do not think that when a person is doing a 3x20 at SST/L4 he is "farting" around nor do I think that you need to or feel like you need to "heave your dinner" (have you noticed you have a strange fascination with that btw, I believe third post) to feel that you are getting a good training from your session.

But hey you want to puke...be my guest just make sure you atleast have the courtesy to be at the back of the pace line. I deal with enough guys cleaning out their noses already...lol

-js

3x20 is good for me indoors where relief from the saddle is needed but outdoors I don't take breaks unless the people I'm riding with have April legs and I can't see them when I look back. Please don't mention Power Cranks there is no end to that rabbit trail.:)

One hour pace (close to a true 25mile TT effort) over 20 minutes isn't a walk in the park but it's not going to be overly taxing either, especially not mentally.

Following many months of 'getting the quality miles in' I used to find that the 'mental' issue was probably the biggest limiter when it came to early season racing performances, especially in time trials. Physically, 40 minutes at the same pace is going to feel more uncomfortable that just 20. 60 minutes and it's going to let you know that you've be riding hard.

You can split it down all you like and turn a 4 hour ride into 16x20 minutes I guess and stop for lunch and a potty break whilst you're at it, and while it probably does do a good job of helping aerobic development it's not going to get you used to riding for that period of time. Where's your comfy chair, towel and cool water half way through a race?

I mostly train alone - I just get too many questions about the PowerCranks that it gets distracting... besides, this year is just being spent rolling around in 50x16 and 15 getting the miles in and the weight down. That and suffering like a pig in 30x27 and 24. LOL It's another way to ensure that I don't have to presoak the jersey to remove someone elses baked-on nasal expulsions.

If someone could point me in the direction of a couple of studies (all done by different folk) that proves that something like 16x20mins is as good as 4 hours straight at the same power, then I'll be the first to eat humble pie.