Waiting in traffic lines.

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On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:00:53 -0700 (PDT), DennisTheBald
<DennisTheBald@gmail.com> wrote:

>Well, some times even when I'm taking the lane I will move all the way
>over to the left edge of that lane to let right turning motorists
>squeeze by at the light, but I'm a freaking prince among men whereas

If you mean move out to let the indicating motorist turn curbside,
yes, I like to do that too. One of lifes little pleasures.

>people in spandex are mostly terrible knuckleheads like Kim Jong Il.

Almost all the braindead, unaware, road rule ignorant cyclists I see
are wearing "regular" clothes.

>(How many commuters do you see wearing spandex, if you gotta buy five
>$50 jerseys and hand wash 'em where's the cost savings?)

About 1/3, more during winter. Less if I go past a University.

Only need 2 sets, machine wash and spin, the jerseys can even go in
the dryer.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:09:10 -0700 (PDT), Marz
<marzjennings@gmail.com> wrote:

>When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
>really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a
>very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line
>with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to
>work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is, do
>other folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?
>
>laters,
>
>Marz

Depends on conditions of course, but I would never wait in line unless
hell froze over.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:51:33 -0700 (PDT), "james.annan@gmail.com"
<james.annan@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Apr 17, 2:09 am, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
>> really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a
>> very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line
>> with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to
>> work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is, do
>> other folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?
>
>Well if all you are doing is moving up ~5 cars to the head of the
>queue, when all of you are going to get through the lights at the next
>green phase, then there is little time gained by doing this (in some
>cases it may be safer).
>
>Of course I jump the lights routinely so of course I almost always go
>past the queues of traffic.
>
>The lights are only there to manage the gridlocked cars, so long as I
>can see it's safe I'll continue on my way. In Japan they don't even
>default to priority for the through route at quiet times, but cycle
>regularly day and night irrespective of traffic flow. I'm not going to
>stop every 100 yards just because of some brain-dead traffic planning
>- it's annoying enough having to slow down and check just in case
>something is going across.
>
>James

I run lights whenver it's safe. They're timed for cars, not for me.

On 16 Apr, 18:09, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
> really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a
> very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line
> with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to
> work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is, do
> other folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?

[I'm new on urc... hello]

Almost all roads in central Edinburgh have advance stoplines, so if I
come to a queue of traffic at one of those junctions I'll filter,
usually on the left, if there is space to do so. If there turns out to
be a white van in the ASL I'll jolly well pull up right in front of
it, which I think is safer than hanging around somewhere to the left
where the driver isn't looking.

If, while filtering, I come to a car that's so far to the left there
isn't enough space to get past, I stop somewhere behind it, ready to
take a place in the lane when the cars start moving (looking backwards
and making eye contact with the driver behind me helps here, I think.)
Chelsea tractors and vans get a much more careful value of "enough
space" here; I never pass lorries unless I'm certain the lights aren't
changing any time soon.

Generally I only filter if I don't expect the cars to start moving
before I get to the front - if they do, I find it always starts slowly
enough for me to get back into the lane.

If I decide not to filter at all I wait in the centre of the lane
behind the last car, and reconsider filtering if I'm not past the
junction in one light cycle.

On most roads I'm uneasy about the idea of passing stopped cars on the
right, unless I'm going to be turning right myself, as I don't fancy
trying to get back in to moving traffic from that side.

Robin Johnson

On Apr 17, 4:38 am, "Adam Lea" <asr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> "Simon Mason" <simonma...@simonmason.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:NpidnRUervPoq5vVnZ2dnUVZ8saonZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Marz" <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:cb3e1daa-75a2-4fe4-a622-8d8645c9918f@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> >> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
> >> really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a
> >> very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line
> >> with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to
> >> work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is, do
> >> other folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?
>
> >> laters,
>
> >> Marz
>
> > 9/10 I will ride to the head of the queue/line or past slow moving
> > vehicles. Sometimes if there is a bus or lorry in front and there is a
> > chance the lights will change before I can get past then it's not worth
> > the risk. Keeping in the queue just negates the advantage of being on a
> > bike.
>
> I often wonder what to do in Central London where I can't pass on the left
> because it is too dangerous, can't pass on the right because I would be in
> the path of oncoming traffic, can't filter between lanes because the gap is
> too small, yet I often hear of people managing 12+mph averages in this area.
> I wonder how.
>
> Adam

Maybe with a 29er straight over the top? That would be classy.

Depends: less likely on my recumbent trike (track width, slower to
bail out of) than on one of my bikes....

On Apr 16, 9:23 pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
...
>
> The one I deal with most commonly is one where I (and most other
> vehicles) are trying to turn left on the green turn arrow.  The lanes
> are narrow, and the left turn lane is quite long.  I keep my place in
> line for that one (i.e. dead-center behind the car in front of me),
> even if it means I'll miss the green.  I see no way to safely filter
> forward.
I also generally don't have issues with backed up traffic for most my
route, but do have a couple of similar situations. On my ride home,
during rush hour, I have to turn left from a very busy 2 lane road,
speed of 50 mph and long lines of cars to turn left, onto a quieter
wide laned road. There I totally skip the left turn and go straight
through, inserting myself between the straight through and right turn
lanes for the direction I am turning on to, as the speeds are just too
high for me to cross the 2 lanes easily - just getting out into a
break in the traffic can take a couple of minutes due to the heavy
high speed traffic. I have made the left turn easily when riding
earlier in the day, though.

Another left turn I make is on a road with a single lane going to a
dedicated left turn lane and right turn/straight lane. There I always
filter forward to the right side of the left turn, as the two lanes
are very wide and I don't have to worry about either lane of traffic
from there.
>
> At the other one, I'm going straight, in the right curb lane of a busy
> arterial.  Lanes are about 12 feet wide, which I consider wide enough
> to share if speeds are reasonably low.  On that one, I'll almost
> always keep my place in the center of the lane.  But if the line is so
> long that I'll miss the green light, I _very_ carefully filter
> forward.  Generally, I'll stop sort of between the first and second
> car (if there's room), taking care to make eye contact with the driver
> of the second car, with a sort of nod of thanks.  The great danger is
> right hooks, - for example, from a right turn on red.  That's why I
> don't want to be next to the first car (or much worse, bus or truck).
I have a similar intersection, but 95% of the cars turn right in my
case, and I will either hold in the center if there is a long line, or
filter up on the left if there are only a few cars in front and all
are obviously turning right, always easy to tell for the first couple
anyway, since they are edging over to the right anyway. That helps
avoid the right hooks there, which is practically every car anyway.

Rick

On Apr 16, 7:00 pm, DennisTheBald <DennisTheB...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 16, 12:09 pm, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
> > really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a
> > very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line
> > with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to
> > work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is, do
> > other folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?
>
> > laters,
>
> > Marz
>
> You're on the same roads, you've got the same rules, at least
> stateside - all y'all 'cross the pond actually have consideration for
> bikes written into the laws rather than slapped on at the end like
> some kind of afterthought, dontcha.
>
> If the lane is wide enough to share it with a car in the middle of the
> block then it must be at the light too, but if I'm taking the lane...
> Well, some times even when I'm taking the lane I will move all the way
> over to the left edge of that lane to let right turning motorists
> squeeze by at the light, but I'm a freaking prince among men whereas
> people in spandex are mostly terrible knuckleheads like Kim Jong Il.
> (How many commuters do you see wearing spandex, if you gotta buy five
> $50 jerseys and hand wash 'em where's the cost savings?)
> Plot a course that minimizes being in the situation where you're
> waiting for traffic lights, not getting caught up in the motorists'
> daily version of critical mass is one of the best parts of being a
> Biking (yes, horned head gear).  And if you're commuting you're
> probably going to the same place every day, you ought to be able to
> find better spaces to be in that thems that are completely filled up
> with car farts.

I did look into my route options to work and I have 3.
One to follow the feeder road along I10 and then turn down a short
street to the office, a very fast route as there's fewer lights and
the speeding traffic creates a nice tail wind/draft, but it's not the
safest route.
Option 2 it the straightest route along a 4 lane road through the
neighbourhoods, it's a nice wide road, speed limits of 30, 35 and 40 a
lot of traffic and a lot of lights and hence the need to queue jump,
but it is quick.
And option 3 a nice quiet ride through the smaller roads in the
neighbourhood, it zigzags a bit, adds about 2 miles to a 9 mile route
and not so much traffic, BUT I can't ride it. Bunker Hill have banned
cyclists from the road and I'm left to share the sidewalk/pavement/
foot path with joggers, dog walkers and of course have to check almost
every road and drive crossing before moving on, not fun at all.


Laters,

Marz

On Apr 17, 4:05 am, "J. Chisholm" <jc...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> Simon Mason wrote:
>
> > "Marz" <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:cb3e1daa-75a2-4fe4-a622-8d8645c9918f@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> >> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
> >> really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a
> >> very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line
> >> with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to
> >> work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is, do
> >> other folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?
>
> >> laters,
>
> >> Marz
>
> > 9/10 I will ride to the head of the queue/line or past slow moving
> > vehicles. Sometimes if there is a bus or lorry in front and there is a
> > chance the lights will change before I can get past then it's not worth
> > the risk. Keeping in the queue just negates the advantage of being on a
> > bike.
>
> My advice is NEVER go in front of the first vehicle unless there is a
> good ASL.
> Take primary position behind first vehicle. The driver of the first
> vehicle will be looking at the lights to see when they change, and even
> if you think he should see you he may not. In addition an increasing
> proportion of drivers don't realise that 'indicators' should be used in
> advance of a manoeuvre to indicate intentions rather that show "I'm now
> turning left", as if it isn't bloddy obvious by that stage. At a
> junction I use almost daily I recon only half vehicles that are first in
> Q indicate in advance that they're turn left, with the other half either
> not indicating at all or only indicating as they move off to make the turn..
>
> Similar applies to R'abouts, don't undertake first vehicle in Q but move
> off behind him. In Cambridge a cyclist was killed when an HGV moved off
> at a R'about when cyclist in front didn't.
>
> Jim Chisholm- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Never seen an ASL in Houston and I doubt I ever will, but I agree with
not getting ahead of the first car. He's just watching for the light
to go green and has assumed that nothing is going to pull in front of
him after he's stopped for the red light.

"Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fu6fhl$50u$2@registered.motzarella.org...
> Adam Lea wrote:
>> [...]
>> I often wonder what to do in Central London where I can't pass on the
>> left because it is too dangerous, can't pass on the right because I would
>> be in the path of oncoming traffic, can't filter between lanes because
>> the gap is too small, yet I often hear of people managing 12+mph averages
>> in this area. I wonder how.
>>
> See <http://digave.com/videos/london06-digave_com.mpg> for advice on
> riding in London.
>

Ah so that's the answer - use the "full width" of the road.

In article <66pk9pF2l6kugU1@mid.individual.net>, Adam Lea
asrl07@yahoo.co.uk says...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:fu6fhl$50u$2@registered.motzarella.org...
> > Adam Lea wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> I often wonder what to do in Central London where I can't pass on the
> >> left because it is too dangerous, can't pass on the right because I would
> >> be in the path of oncoming traffic, can't filter between lanes because
> >> the gap is too small, yet I often hear of people managing 12+mph averages
> >> in this area. I wonder how.
> >>
> > See <http://digave.com/videos/london06-digave_com.mpg> for advice on
> > riding in London.
> >
>
> Ah so that's the answer - use the "full width" of the road.
>
No, just any bit you can squeeze through by tucking in your knees and
elbows. :-)
Seriously though, what a bunch of twats.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:09:10 -0700, Marz wrote:

> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
> really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a very
> rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line with
> traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to work is
> to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is, do other
> folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?

I filter forward but only if there's plenty of room, and no danger of
being right-hooked. Actually this winds up being most of the time.

Keep in mind there will be drivers wanting to turn right who will inch
rightward well in advance of the intersection, without signaling or
checking their blind spot for bikes passing them on the right. If you
come up too fast from behind they won't see you even if they do look. So
be careful, don't go too fast, watch for signs of drivers encroaching on
your path, and be prepared to hit your brakes.

To take this one step further, I believe all right-hook situations are
entirely avoidable by keeping the above in mind.

Matt O.

J. Chisholm wrote:
> My advice is NEVER go in front of the first vehicle unless there is a
> good ASL.

This is unduly restrictive, though I see your point. In front of the
first vehicle is much safer than beside it, so you MUST be sure you
can get into the driver's eyeline before he can move. If it's a lorry,
I'll look up at the driver and make eye contact. I also won't go in
front if that means I can't see the lights - I improve my safety a bit
more by reacting faster than the driver behind me when the lights change.

> Similar applies to R'abouts, don't undertake first vehicle in Q but move
> off behind him. In Cambridge a cyclist was killed when an HGV moved off
> at a R'about when cyclist in front didn't.

Roundabouts (and unsignalled junctions) are different. You never know
when the first vehicle will move off, so don't try to pass it unless
there's gridlock.

Colin McKenzie

--
No-one has ever proved that cycle helmets make cycling any safer at
the population level, and anyway cycling is about as safe per mile as
walking.
Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org.

"Rob Morley" <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.2271ad4b1c75fbd798b77b@news.individual.net...
> No, just any bit you can squeeze through by tucking in your knees and
> elbows. :-)

I have been toying with the idea of getting one of those cameras that
attaches to the bike so I can videotape my rides. I could then post the odd
one on here and ask for some advice..

Marz <marzjennings@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Apr 17, 4:05 am, "J. Chisholm" <jc...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> > Simon Mason wrote:
> >
> > > "Marz" <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > >news:cb3e1daa-75a2-4fe4-a622-8d8645c9918f@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> > >> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
> > >> really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a
> > >> very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line
> > >> with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to
> > >> work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is, do
> > >> other folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?
> >
> > >> laters,
> >
> > >> Marz
> >
> > > 9/10 I will ride to the head of the queue/line or past slow moving
> > > vehicles. Sometimes if there is a bus or lorry in front and there is a
> > > chance the lights will change before I can get past then it's not worth
> > > the risk. Keeping in the queue just negates the advantage of being on a
> > > bike.
> >
> > My advice is NEVER go in front of the first vehicle unless there is a
> > good ASL.
> > Take primary position behind first vehicle. The driver of the first
> > vehicle will be looking at the lights to see when they change, and even
> > if you think he should see you he may not. In addition an increasing
> > proportion of drivers don't realise that 'indicators' should be used in
> > advance of a manoeuvre to indicate intentions rather that show "I'm now
> > turning left", as if it isn't bloddy obvious by that stage. At a
> > junction I use almost daily I recon only half vehicles that are first in
> > Q indicate in advance that they're turn left, with the other half either
> > not indicating at all or only indicating as they move off to make the turn.
> >
> > Similar applies to R'abouts, don't undertake first vehicle in Q but move
> > off behind him. In Cambridge a cyclist was killed when an HGV moved off
> > at a R'about when cyclist in front didn't.
> >
> > Jim Chisholm- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Never seen an ASL in Houston and I doubt I ever will, but I agree with
> not getting ahead of the first car. He's just watching for the light
> to go green and has assumed that nothing is going to pull in front of
> him after he's stopped for the red light.

not sure i really see the problem, as such very few cars etc move off
from the lights with any great speed, i certinaly don't have much
problems leaving the traffic behind at least across the junction.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:01:47 +0100, "Adam Lea" <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>
>"Rob Morley" <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>news:MPG.2271ad4b1c75fbd798b77b@news.individual.net...
>> No, just any bit you can squeeze through by tucking in your knees and
>> elbows. :-)
>
>I have been toying with the idea of getting one of those cameras that
>attaches to the bike so I can videotape my rides. I could then post the odd
>one on here and ask for some advice..
>
Except these aren't binary groups. You'd have to do in on Youtube or
something and link it here.
--
zk

Adam Lea wrote:
> "Rob Morley" <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.2271ad4b1c75fbd798b77b@news.individual.net...
>> No, just any bit you can squeeze through by tucking in your knees and
>> elbows. :-)
>
> I have been toying with the idea of getting one of those cameras that
> attaches to the bike so I can videotape my rides. I could then post the odd
> one on here and ask for some advice..


I think my cycling improved dramatically in the weeks after I got mine,
and started reviewing my cycling. Watching your cycling in your own home
allows me to think about what happened, without having to watch the road
whilst cycling.
Now if I am cut up, I think "I got that on camera, I will have a look
when I get home", rather than trying to work out what happened then and
there.

"Zoot Katz" <zootkatz@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:fhff04dfl4p87inma98436ni4b4tgm9ncg@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:01:47 +0100, "Adam Lea" <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Rob Morley" <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>>news:MPG.2271ad4b1c75fbd798b77b@news.individual.net...
>>> No, just any bit you can squeeze through by tucking in your knees and
>>> elbows. :-)
>>
>>I have been toying with the idea of getting one of those cameras that
>>attaches to the bike so I can videotape my rides. I could then post the
>>odd
>>one on here and ask for some advice..
>>
> Except these aren't binary groups. You'd have to do in on Youtube or
> something and link it here.
> --

Yes that is what I meant.

Adam Lea wrote:
> "Zoot Katz" <zootkatz@operamail.com> wrote in message

>> Except these aren't binary groups. You'd have to do in on Youtube or
>> something and link it here.
>> --
>
> Yes that is what I meant.

Got this one on the way home from work this evening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42KbrxAFnY8

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:58:28 GMT, Martin Dann
<martin.dann@virgin.net> wrote:

>
>Adam Lea wrote:
>> "Rob Morley" <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> news:MPG.2271ad4b1c75fbd798b77b@news.individual.net...
>>> No, just any bit you can squeeze through by tucking in your knees and
>>> elbows. :-)
>>
>> I have been toying with the idea of getting one of those cameras that
>> attaches to the bike so I can videotape my rides. I could then post the odd
>> one on here and ask for some advice..
>
>
>I think my cycling improved dramatically in the weeks after I got mine,
>and started reviewing my cycling. Watching your cycling in your own home
>allows me to think about what happened, without having to watch the road
>whilst cycling.
>Now if I am cut up, I think "I got that on camera, I will have a look
>when I get home", rather than trying to work out what happened then and
>there.

That sounds like a good learning tool.
I've carried a voice actuated recorder a few times just for laughs.
Most of it had to be beeped out and the singing parts were worse.
--
zk