Waiting in traffic lines.

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On Apr 19, 7:38 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
>
> As I see it, there are two types of VC'ers: those who were
> actually trained/taught that way by a qualified VC instructor,
> and those who've sorta read the book, and created their own
> interpretations of its contents.
>
> The former group does pretty good. The latter group just
> cherry-picks the parts that suit 'em, while disregarding
> the rest of the story.

Here's a related proposition: there are two types of anti-VC'ers:
those who are totally clueless as to what Vehicular Cycling is about,
and those who have sort of read the book and created their own
interpretation of its contents, cherry picking the parts they want to
argue against.

Some of the latter group argues vociferously that vehicular cycling is
worthless, on the basis that it requires mindless behavior according
to an absolutely rigid set of rules, and forbids consideration of
anything that's not within that set of rules.

As Tom says, if those anti-VC'ers were actually taught by a competent
instructor (and had a mind open enough for learning) they might learn
that their interpretation is far from correct.

- Frank Krygowski

On Apr 19, 5:09 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article <aca55e21-c101-45dc-a9cf-63e86d07a...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
> frkry...@gmail.com writes:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 19, 5:55 am, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> >> In article <0d94641c-e85f-457f-9746-7fdc7974c...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> >> frkry...@gmail.com writes:
>
> >> > When you're at the same speed as the motor vehicles, you should almost
> >> > always be right in line with the motor vehicles. And "same speed"
> >> > includes zero speed.
>
> >> Then that precludes filtering. Might as well just
> >> drive a fat-assed, greenhouse-gas-farting machine
> >> and get in line & wait with the other lusers.
>
> > I tend to evaluate options by comparing benefits vs. detriments.
>
> > Now, as I explained, it's very rare that filtering forward would save
> > me catching a red light. So what's my benefit to filtering forward?
>
> Not having to miss a traffic light cycle because some
> bone-headed driver up ahead is yacking on his cell...

Yes, but as I explained, it's very rare that filtering forward would
save _me_ catching a red light. IOW, that benefit generally doesn't
exist for me.

This is partly because, when I moved to this town over 25 years ago, I
shopped for houses with location in mind, and chose one with a
location allowing reasonably pleasant bike access to places I
frequently go.

If I lived where I'd frequently miss a traffic light cycle because of
motorist gridlock, my balance of benefits vs. detriments would be
different. But for me, filtering forward would save me perhaps ten
seconds on a typical trip. Not worth it.

And I think my situation is more common. That is, I think most
cyclists - even most utility cyclists - wouldn't save all that much
time by filtering forward.

> I find myself sizing-up (literally) the vehicles in
> all directions of an intersection, and considering
> (among other factors) where I'm most visible at a
> given situation when I decide where I place myself.
> Sometimes that means getting ahead of a cube van or
> garbage truck or whatever, sometimes that means hanging
> back behind 'em, and sometimes that means getting in
> line. It's a dynamic, on-the-spot, on-the-fly judgment
> call. The point is: there is absolutely no Standard
> Operational Procedure (other than local, jurisdictional
> traffic [by]laws) as to where a rider should place her/himself
> in a lineup at a controlled intersection. Just take the
> best of what you've got at the time while, as you say,
> considering the risks involved.

Hmm. I guess I can see a slight visibility disadvantage if a cyclist
is behind a large truck, but I don't see a significantly increased
risk of getting hit by other vehicles. OTOH, I sometimes get a
drafting advantage by being there. (Garbage trucks excepted, of
course!)

In any case, I don't think I've ever gone around such a truck with the
intent of making myself more visible. I've never needed to.


>
> > For me, there's a lot of joy in bicycling that has nothing at all to
> > do with the ability to filter forward. So no, I wouldn't say I might
> > as well be driving a car.
>
> Canoeists & kayakers can adamantly stick to the shipping
> lanes too, if they wanna.
>
> The joy in bicycling is that the world becomes
> your oyster, not your inescapable rail line.

My joy in bicycling comes from dozens of different aspects. Filtering
forward, when I do it, is certainly less than 1% of the total.

- Frank Krygowski

In article <b06b0a44-99d9-4f2a-9cb6-c5643e586f6f@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
frkrygow@gmail.com writes:

>> I find myself sizing-up (literally) the vehicles in
>> all directions of an intersection, and considering
>> (among other factors) where I'm most visible at a
>> given situation when I decide where I place myself.
>> Sometimes that means getting ahead of a cube van or
>> garbage truck or whatever, sometimes that means hanging
>> back behind 'em, and sometimes that means getting in
>> line. It's a dynamic, on-the-spot, on-the-fly judgment
>> call. The point is: there is absolutely no Standard
>> Operational Procedure (other than local, jurisdictional
>> traffic [by]laws) as to where a rider should place her/himself
>> in a lineup at a controlled intersection. Just take the
>> best of what you've got at the time while, as you say,
>> considering the risks involved.
>
> Hmm. I guess I can see a slight visibility disadvantage if a cyclist
> is behind a large truck, but I don't see a significantly increased
> risk of getting hit by other vehicles.

Consider this scenario: you're the last vehicle in your lineup,
and there's a large truck directly in front of you. Meanwhile,
there are left-turning drivers on the opposite side of the street,
eagerly awaiting their chance to go, and chompfing at the bit to
do so. They see the truck that's ahead of you, but do they see
/you/, behind it?

[...]

> My joy in bicycling comes from dozens of different aspects. Filtering
> forward, when I do it, is certainly less than 1% of the total.

I suppose my original post comes across as contentious
and argumentative, which was not my intent. At least,
I wish to not charge with emotion my point that filtering
is sometimes a viable and useful tactic when applied
judiciously and carefully. I also bear in mind that
discussing filtering might induce some people to associate
it with lane-splitting, which is an horse of a somewhat
different colour.


peace & goodwill, and much joy in cycling,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

"Tom Keats" <tkeats2005@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qfvguf.eq4.ln@vcn.bc.ca...
> In article
> <b06b0a44-99d9-4f2a-9cb6-c5643e586f6f@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> frkrygow@gmail.com writes:

> [...]
>
>> My joy in bicycling comes from dozens of different aspects. Filtering
>> forward, when I do it, is certainly less than 1% of the total.
>
> I suppose my original post comes across as contentious
> and argumentative, which was not my intent. At least,
> I wish to not charge with emotion my point that filtering
> is sometimes a viable and useful tactic when applied
> judiciously and carefully. I also bear in mind that
> discussing filtering might induce some people to associate
> it with lane-splitting, which is an horse of a somewhat
> different colour.

Here's something I find beneficial: I think one of the more dangerous
situations vis a vis automobiles crowding a cyclist is just after an
intersection. In the curb lane that is stopped for an automobile that is
likely going straight there will likely be several waiting to turn right on
red. So by getting ahead of those right turners you not only avoid them
right hooking you but gain a 'breathing space' after the intersection where
there is often a gap in traffic from the right turners behind you.


Just IME.

On Apr 20, 10:51 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article <b06b0a44-99d9-4f2a-9cb6-c5643e586...@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> frkry...@gmail.com writes:
>
> > Hmm. I guess I can see a slight visibility disadvantage if a cyclist
> > is behind a large truck, but I don't see a significantly increased
> > risk of getting hit by other vehicles.
>
> Consider this scenario: you're the last vehicle in your lineup,
> and there's a large truck directly in front of you. Meanwhile,
> there are left-turning drivers on the opposite side of the street,
> eagerly awaiting their chance to go, and chompfing at the bit to
> do so. They see the truck that's ahead of you, but do they see
> /you/, behind it?

I've been aware of what you're describing, both while riding and while
typing my previous response. I just don't think the hazard is
significant.

When I am behind a big vehicle at a traffic light, I frequently enjoy
the drafting help when traffic starts. They accelerate slowly, so I
can often get pulled up to 25 mph (and in my younger days, 30 mph).
In that situation, I'm close enough behind the truck that nobody could
cut that left turn sharply enough to hit me, or even come close.

In the instances where things are different (say, because the truck's
creeeping forward) I simply position myself toward the left side of
the lane. I can then see around the truck, and I can be seen by any
potential left-turners.

- Frank Krygowski

On Apr 20, 1:33 am, NO_SPAM_TO_dphar...@gci.net (Dennis P. Harris)
wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:49:27 -0700 (PDT) in rec.bicycles.misc,
>
> Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > And option 3 a nice quiet ride through the smaller roads in the
> > neighbourhood, it zigzags a bit, adds about 2 miles to a 9 mile route
> > and not so much traffic, BUT I can't ride it. Bunker Hill have banned
> > cyclists from the road and I'm left to share the sidewalk/pavement/
> > foot path with joggers, dog walkers and of course have to check almost
> > every road and drive crossing before moving on, not fun at all.
>
> How can they ban bikes?  AFAIK in most states cities can't ban
> bikes from streets or roads.  I'd just do it and fight the
> ticket.

Dunno how it came about, but here's the local ordinance...

Sec. 9-131. Bicycle paths--When use required.
Wherever a useable public path for bicycles has been provided adjacent
to a public street, bicycle riders shall use such path and shall not
use the public street.
(Ord. No. 317, § 1, 9-8-87)


... I think the local bike clubs having been trying to change it for
some time.

In rec.bicycles.misc Martin Dann <martin.dann@virgin.net> wrote:
>
> GoogleUser Marz wrote:
>> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
>> really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a
>> very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line
>> with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to
>> work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is, do
>> other folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?
>
> If I approach most junctions, and there is just on car waiting before I
> get there, I will wait behind. (The exception is red lights on hills).
> If there is a lorry/bus in front, I probably won't bother passing that.
> If there is a long queue, and I know I won't get through the next green
> phase if I wait, then I filter.

This is pretty much how I operate. On most stretches of my commute, I'd
rather be in the traffic queue rather than off to the side. As long as
I don't miss the light, I don't care if I'm in the very front. In fact,
if I can get behind someone in a van or DHL or UPS truck, I can get an
excellent draft and zip along with everyone else at traffic speed on
most of the stretches.

--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
If you can read this, you're in range of the demat gun

Dane Buson wrote:

>>> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is
>>> not really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter
>>> (a very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait
>>> in line with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I
>>> did ride to work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my
>>> question is, do other folks wait in line or do you ride through
>>> stationary traffic?

>> If I approach most junctions, and there is just on car waiting
>> before I get there, I will wait behind. (The exception is red
>> lights on hills). If there is a lorry/bus in front, I probably
>> won't bother passing that. If there is a long queue, and I know I
>> won't get through the next green phase if I wait, then I filter.

> This is pretty much how I operate. On most stretches of my commute,
> I'd rather be in the traffic queue rather than off to the side. As
> long as I don't miss the light, I don't care if I'm in the very
> front. In fact, if I can get behind someone in a van or DHL or UPS
> truck, I can get an excellent draft and zip along with everyone else
> at traffic speed on most of the stretches.

I think it depends on the road configuration and traffic light phases.
On my commute, several expressways with bicycle lanes cross and have
double left turn lanes with many left turning cars. For these
intersections, I wait in the bicycle lane and when the left turn phase
occurs, ride diagonally between opposing left turn flow, ending the
crossing in the other expressway bike lane.

I find that this does not impede cars (that can accelerate faster than
I) and don't ride in the midst of those cars. These are 4-lane or
wider divided roads, some with median separators. The more lanes the
better but don't ride in the debris pile dead zone in the center of
the intersection, but watch for tools and money that seem to prefer
that location. Stopping there for a pickup is not hazardous.

As for traffic jams, I ride in the bicycle lane and it isn't jammed.
On our main street, I ride down the center stripe to avoid getting
doored or right-turned by slow or stalled traffic.

Jobst Brandt

On 12 May 2008 21:06:00 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>Dane Buson wrote:
>
>>>> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is
>>>> not really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter
>>>> (a very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait
>>>> in line with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I
>>>> did ride to work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my
>>>> question is, do other folks wait in line or do you ride through
>>>> stationary traffic?
>
>>> If I approach most junctions, and there is just on car waiting
>>> before I get there, I will wait behind. (The exception is red
>>> lights on hills). If there is a lorry/bus in front, I probably
>>> won't bother passing that. If there is a long queue, and I know I
>>> won't get through the next green phase if I wait, then I filter.
>
>> This is pretty much how I operate. On most stretches of my commute,
>> I'd rather be in the traffic queue rather than off to the side. As
>> long as I don't miss the light, I don't care if I'm in the very
>> front. In fact, if I can get behind someone in a van or DHL or UPS
>> truck, I can get an excellent draft and zip along with everyone else
>> at traffic speed on most of the stretches.
>
>I think it depends on the road configuration and traffic light phases.
>On my commute, several expressways with bicycle lanes cross and have
>double left turn lanes with many left turning cars. For these
>intersections, I wait in the bicycle lane and when the left turn phase
>occurs, ride diagonally between opposing left turn flow, ending the
>crossing in the other expressway bike lane.
>
>I find that this does not impede cars (that can accelerate faster than
>I) and don't ride in the midst of those cars. These are 4-lane or
>wider divided roads, some with median separators. The more lanes the
>better but don't ride in the debris pile dead zone in the center of
>the intersection, but watch for tools and money that seem to prefer
>that location. Stopping there for a pickup is not hazardous.
>
>As for traffic jams, I ride in the bicycle lane and it isn't jammed.
>On our main street, I ride down the center stripe to avoid getting
>doored or right-turned by slow or stalled traffic.
>
>Jobst Brandt

We who have survived for years largely unscathed develop a sense of
flow that fits the infrastructure and social norms of our particular
area. "Vehicular Cycling" and the scofflaw zen gonzo riding styles
meld in that flow.

To expect anything but a rolling-stop without a stern application of
"the eye" is the norm around here. Stoping for a right-turn-on-red
will too often get you tail ended, leaving serious injury claims and
flattened bicycle tires in the wake.

I won't hang my butt out in a left turn lane for more than one light
sequence except in situations requiring hazardous moves to avoid it.
Mostly it's a matter of timing, sight lines and grade. Knowing the
route helps. Sometimes a "square-turn" is going to be quicker.

My line is preferably on the right front quarter panel, signalling
left across the windshield, of the first car in the line-up. Second
choice is in that driver's blind spot. Hitting a green arrow on the
fly across four lanes of slowing and stopped through-traffic to merge
with the turning traffic is beautiful but takes confidence and luck.

People blathering about the optics of how you get there are wasting
their time.
--
zk

Zoot Katz wrote:

> We who have survived for years largely unscathed develop a sense of
> flow that fits the infrastructure and social norms of our particular
> area. "Vehicular Cycling" and the scofflaw zen gonzo riding styles
> meld in that flow.

That about sums it up for me. Even in the same area, I'll naturally
adopt different styles to match the conditions. In urban areas, when
things are congested, I tend to go gonzo, just to get through/stay ahead
of it. When things spread out/speed up, I tend to be more vehicular.
Just as we self-optimize our cadence and posture, I think we optimize
our behavior (or should) to suit the circumstances.