Landis is racing the Cohutta 100 on Saturday

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I have always thought the secret to winning the tour was real estate.

You wait til the ASO releases the Tour route, and then go an rent 3 undercover apartments in the vicinity of stage 2, stage 7 and stage 13. You get a fridge, a haematologist, and a backup electric generator, 3x fridges and 3x generators, for each apartment.

You then tap the blood in the offseason, spin it, put it witht he preservatives. Yoy might need the dry ice freezers.

Done. Got the perfect doping model, no need for couriers, less facilitators.
I don't think so. You don't want to refrigerate blood for much more than forty days. If you take it in the off season then you need to freeze it. I don't know about your fridge, but mine doesn't have a setting for -80C.

Having multiple locations that need be taken care of is a lot riskier than using a courier to take the blood from one central storage location. The chance of a courier who looks like one of hundreds of thousands of other TdF fans getting caught is about nil.

It is also far safer to store the blood in a country with lax doping regulations.

I don't think so. You don't want to refrigerate blood for much more than forty days. If you take it in the off season then you need to freeze it. I don't know about your fridge, but mine doesn't have a setting for -80C.

Having multiple locations that need be taken care of is a lot riskier than using a courier to take the blood from one central storage location. The chance of a courier who looks like one of hundreds of thousands of other TdF fans getting caught is about nil.

It is also far safer to store the blood in a country with lax doping regulations.
I qualified the dry ice or whatever is needed to get it to the temp.

You put it in an apartment where the entrance is private, simple.

The difference here is I am not a Floyd supporter who thinks he was clean. I am just trying to piece together a scenario that fits the behavior of the various players. If I was H-V (with H-V's personality)... 1. I would hate Floyd's guts after the Mercury fiasco... 2. I would hate Floyd to win the TdF.... and 3. I would have the mechanism to take down any cyclist who didn't play as I liked, knowing that it was not unfair in some respects b/c they are cheaters in any case.


I don't know if you're being serious or not (I was wondering the same thing), but that's an interesting theory you have there Cranky.
The only problem is that a lot of "Floyd Supporters" had and voiced similar thoughts along the way but were accused of being obsessive Floyd fans and/or doping apologists so the points you raise often fall on deaf ears.

I don't know if you're being serious or not (I was wondering the same thing), but that's an interesting theory you have there Cranky.
The only problem is that a lot of "Floyd Supporters" had and voiced similar thoughts along the way but were accused of being obsessive Floyd fans and/or doping apologists so the points you raise often fall on deaf ears.
how can you rig it?

I think it is well enough anon.

gone on the heroin chic diet with extra poppy seeds
And he's seen the light, said no to the devil and and been able to kick the heroin habit that so many other's can't so he's againcompensating with food?

When I saw the pics I just assumed he and his wife recenty split and he was an emotional wreck who couldn't eat. If he's "fat" now, guess he's gotten over it pretty quickly, lol! But, what DIDN'T make sense to me was that he appeared to be somewhat of a stress eater because he put some lbs on during the hearing and the months leading up to it. So, you'd think he'd gain weight with the split. So, then I decided that perhaps he wasn't eating to save money or something. Maybe he's come into money since then (j/k).

how can you rig it?

I think it is well enough anon.
Huh?

Who knows what happen to his physiology after he bonked like that.I like the rest of your post, but this part is bullshit. Floyd was a human being before the stage and after the stage, and this is the PR shit that he and his paid friends spread as FUD.

I like the rest of your post, but this part is bullshit. Floyd was a human being before the stage and after the stage, and this is the PR shit that he and his paid friends spread as FUD.
nope, I thought the application of topical creams is not an exact science. That was my point. A bonk, hydration IV, perhaps a blood transfusion, all add another layer or intangibles.

Most times Floyd was tested, many times he may have jumped off the bike, been a few kgs underweight in fluid loss, and added the topical testo, and the epi in proportion.

Each extra layer adds another intangible. I don't suggest it would miraculise in his system, and make a previous 1:1 ratio register as 12:1.

I was saying, it may have slowed minutely, and not passed thru his system quite as quickly. Most of the testo doping assumes that is will spike levels and be out of the system instantaneously.

More complications.

Not buying the defenders searching for any reasons. I am saying there are many reasons why it could genuinely have spiked a little from actual testo application, and Landis assumed he was fine like always.

Jezus christ do you know how hard it is to rent an apartment in france ! even for just a week !?? I'd guess you'd just pose as a fan...... the fridges of course are for the beer.....

I liked the Lance method... as he had the financial resources to do anything he transfused in the helicopter leaving stages back to his hotel...... just need a chopper pilot with a steady hand.... you don't want a forward dive as the needle is going in.....

are you being sarcastic?

do you know the variables. Could have been a simple misapplication on the testo-epi. done double testo, no epi. Usually they add epi, so to maintain the ratio. What happened if they put a lotion on, and accidentally put on testo twice.

Who knows what happen to his physiology after he bonked like that.

You wanna ask, why then, does it not happen more often, mistakes, misapplications?

Well, look at the sheer numbers, there are only 4 tested per stage, plus some random health checks for teams, with urine too.

The most common positive is actually testo, so they do screw up their application, more often than they have their exogenous EPO registering.

I have no questions and no concern re: conspiracy. They fucked up their doping. It was not the reason he won the stage. The reason he won was either his dynepo/epo, or his blood transfusions. And it may not have come on s16 night. His body may have had a poor reaction to being retransfused, and that is why he suffered on s16. Be strange to schedule a blood packet the night after s16, you miss out on one mtn stage without the blood advantage.

However, with transfusions, you have to take into account logistics and delivery. It might not have been possible, or too risky, and too far away from his helatologist.

I have always thought the secret to winning the tour was real estate.

You wait til the ASO releases the Tour route, and then go an rent 3 undercover apartments in the vicinity of stage 2, stage 7 and stage 13. You get a fridge, a haematologist, and a backup electric generator, 3x fridges and 3x generators, for each apartment.

You then tap the blood in the offseason, spin it, put it witht he preservatives. Yoy might need the dry ice freezers.

Done. Got the perfect doping model, no need for couriers, less facilitators.

I like the rest of your post, but this part is bullshit. Floyd was a human being before the stage and after the stage, and this is the PR shit that he and his paid friends spread as FUD.
You know what's funny about that? I merely skimmed that post and I thought it said who knows what happened to his psychology after the bonk. Like, people will sometimes do ANYTHING in an act of desparation and start to think irrationally (we could do THIS and still not get caught) type of stuff . . . thereby pushing the limits further than normal and further than they should.

You know what's funny about that? I merely skimmed that post and I thought it said who knows what happened to his psychology after the bonk. Like, people will sometimes do ANYTHING in an act of desparation and start to think irrationally (we could do THIS and still not get caught) type of stuff . . . thereby pushing the limits further than normal and further than they should.
I read it and thought it said "what happened to his pet gerbal after the bonk".....and I'm thinking that this thing is a whole lot deeper than I imagined.

I like the rest of your post, but this part is bullshit. Floyd was a human being before the stage and after the stage, and this is the PR shit that he and his paid friends spread as FUD.Can someone explain to me though how the short term testosterone infusion explains him being superhuman for one day?

BTW jimmypop... I'm as much a believer as anyone that Floyd is a doper. I just also think that Hein Verbruggen has even less integrity than a cheating cyclist and IMO could quite easily be capable of using underhand methods to cut down a pro cyclist he doesn't like.

BTW - I don't take it personally if anyone (inc. friends) attacks these ideas/views. I would quite quickly change my mind if someone showed how it was not possible or highly implausible. And I appreciate this is like stepping 18 months back in history and rehashing 10,000 posts on the subject.

Can someone explain to me though how the short term testosterone infusion explains him being superhuman for one day?

BTW jimmypop... I'm as much a believer as anyone that Floyd is a doper. I just also think that Hein Verbruggen has even less integrity than a cheating cyclist and IMO could quite easily be capable of using underhand methods to cut down a pro cyclist he doesn't like.

BTW - I don't take it personally if anyone (inc. friends) attacks these ideas/views. I would quite quickly change my mind if someone showed how it was not possible or highly implausible. And I appreciate this is like stepping 18 months back in history and rehashing 10,000 posts on the subject.
it cant. never said it was the reason.

That was the flawed defense from FL's camp.

it cant. never said it was the reason.

That was the flawed defense from FL's camp.Defence as in FL's camp said "it doesn't help, so therefore he couldn't have done it" ? (trying to remember, but not willing to delve too far into the memories of opposing viewpoints attacking each other viciously at DPF for months on end over such issues...;))

Can someone explain to me though how the short term testosterone infusion explains him being superhuman for one day?I think everyone is in agreement that testosterone cannot make you superhuman. It is a recovery drug. His superhuman performance was due to other dope, not testosterone.

BTW jimmypop... I'm as much a believer as anyone that Floyd is a doper. I just also think that Hein Verbruggen has even less integrity than a cheating cyclist and IMO could quite easily be capable of using underhand methods to cut down a pro cyclist he doesn't like.I don't think HV did anything to create the inflated result though. Obviously, I don't have any proof that this is not the case, but manipulating someone's sample to out him creates a very dangerous precedent, and is also risky. To do something like that would involve the use of an insider in the lab - what if that someone blows the whistle sometime later? I think it more likely that FL somehow screwed up with his testosterone doping...

it cant. never said it was the reason.

That was the flawed defense from FL's camp.Yeah... I realise you said something different. I was answering jimmypop.

It also explains to me why he would ring up LeMond. I couldn't fathom that one out before. Why would he call LeMond? And admit that he has doped? I think its because he knew LeMond was paranoid about the UCI screwing/framing himself and that LeMond was publicly stating the view that the weak link he always felt (before Landis) was the UCI's custody of the sample from cyclist to lab. But once he admitted that he had doped... LeMond turned on him and said he wouldn't support him in court.

I think he knows they screwed him (even though he knows he is a doper). I think that is why he felt he had a chance going for the chain of custody and manipulation defense. Because he knows there was manipulation somewhere.

I just don't buy the "he farked it up" explanation that easily. I was always a believer in the bad transfusion theory (and I would even go so far as to claim to be the first to post it on CF), but there is just too much to lose by making those mistakes. I think their control of the program was better than that. Unless those mistakes are happening all the time and the UCI/labs are just ignoring it... which I doubt.

I don't think the labs are involved. It would be nearly impossible to get them on board en masse in any conspiracy.

I think everyone is in agreement that testosterone cannot make you superhuman. It is a recovery drug. His superhuman performance was due to other dope, not testosterone.

I don't think HV did anything to create the inflated result though. Obviously, I don't have any proof that this is not the case, but manipulating someone's sample to out him creates a very dangerous precedent, and is also risky. To do something like that would involve the use of an insider in the lab - what if that someone blows the whistle sometime later? I think it more likely that FL somehow screwed up with his testosterone doping...Not in the lab - they tamper with or replace the sample before the lab. Is this possible? They could have urine of the top cyclists going back years kept in cold storage. It would only involve one UCI insider who had custody of the sample, or was able to get access to it, to tamper with or effect the switch of the sample.

Not in the lab - they tamper with or replace the sample before the lab. Is this possible? They could have urine of the top cyclists going back years kept in cold storage.Once again, a bit improbable IMO. They need to know which sample tested with the anomaly that they wanted; also I don't know the procedure used in sealing and labeling the samples; I would be a bit surprised if they can simply swap samples like that.

Once again, a bit improbable IMO. They need to know which sample tested with the anomaly that they wanted; also I don't know the procedure used in sealing and labeling the samples; I would be a bit surprised if they can simply swap samples like that.Yes... but if you were a power crazy guy who wanted to have the ultimate stick to punish errant pros with... correctly categorizing or labelling samples with the characteristics you desire would be not that difficult... if it was a dedicated project. This also explains to me how they can keep dopers looking clean (like Lance). It's not the labs. The UCI give the labs a clean sample. Not the one Lance just pissed. Lance was paying the payola... Floyd wasn't.

5 Floyd samples had testosterone. Floyd not ask for DNA match. Floyd used testosterone. Used extra patch after bonk. Floyd know samples his.

Also used blood, EPO, HGH, insulin, cortisone. Doping tests to catch dopers not to find dope used.