Re: Memorial Day (OT)

Bill C

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

On May 25, 8:36 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Mon, 26 May 2008 00:33:12 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
>
> <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
> >On Sun, 25 May 2008 15:18:42 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
> ><tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> If Bush and company aren't guilty of treason it's only because the
> >>left fought so hard to make it almost impossible to prosecute someone
> >>for this, but they did that in self defense since there's no question
> >>in my mind Hanoi Jane, at least, was guilty of it along with many
> >>others.
>
> >What is your problem? Everything has a bugaboo leftie behind it.
>
> >The reason thet Bushco can't be prosecuted is that the evidence is
> >hidden behind executive privelege, destroyed evidence, a corrupt
> >justice department, etc.
>
> One other thing Bill -start living in the present and start blaming
> people who are responsible NOW for what what's going on.
>
> Clearly the left really upset you in the past, but you've got to let
> it go and view the world through current reality.
>
> Or, if you don't want to let it go, blame them for whatever they did
> to you in the past, but stop viewing today through that old lens.

The past informs the future JT. How do you seperate people from their
past? You can't seperate Africans from being enslaved, you can't
seperate Jews from the Holocaust, you can't seperate Progressives from
their past either.
I think I'm moving on. I can, and do recognize what's happening
today. A large part of that has been you in particular moving me on.
Bill C

Bill C

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

On May 25, 9:24 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On May 25, 8:36 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 26 May 2008 00:33:12 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
>
> > <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
> > >On Sun, 25 May 2008 15:18:42 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
> > ><tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > >> If Bush and company aren't guilty of treason it's only because the
> > >>left fought so hard to make it almost impossible to prosecute someone
> > >>for this, but they did that in self defense since there's no question
> > >>in my mind Hanoi Jane, at least, was guilty of it along with many
> > >>others.
>
> > >What is your problem? Everything has a bugaboo leftie behind it.
>
> > >The reason thet Bushco can't be prosecuted is that the evidence is
> > >hidden behind executive privelege, destroyed evidence, a corrupt
> > >justice department, etc.
>
> > One other thing Bill -start living in the present and start blaming
> > people who are responsible NOW for what what's going on.
>
> > Clearly the left really upset you in the past, but you've got to let
> > it go and view the world through current reality.
>
> > Or, if you don't want to let it go, blame them for whatever they did
> > to you in the past, but stop viewing today through that old lens.
>
> The past informs the future JT. How do you seperate people from their
> past? You can't seperate Africans from being enslaved, you can't
> seperate Jews from the Holocaust, you can't seperate Progressives from
> their past either.
> I think I'm moving on. I can, and do recognize what's happening
> today. A large part of that has been you in particular moving me on.
> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

JT I'm really happy to see the liberal folks making the suicide rate
today a big issue, because it is, but it's not smart strategy on their
part.
There's a much higher awareness today, better treatment, more support
and many less troops than were in Vietnam.
Vietnam vets came home to brutal hostility from people on the left
who actively supported the enemy.
Howard asked if I thought they were all traitors a while ago. I
didn't answer then, and I`'ll answer this way today. The VC/NVA knew
the couldn't win militarily, and that's from their own words and
writings. They needed to break America's will to support South
Vietnam. They were counting on the anti-war movement to do that for
them. Tet destroyed the VC. They knew it was suicide going in, but
also bet that it would be the straw that broke the support and won
them the war. It was a tactical disaster, and strategically it won
them the war because of what it did for the anti-war movement.
If suicide is such a big issue now, how much worse was it then, when
they were comning home to be hated and abused by the people who now
claim to support them? I'm willing to admit that many of those folks
may feel guilty and have changed their attitudes, but that doesn't
bring all those vets who made it home and were destroyed by the hatred
here back.
I can see McCain using this issue, and it's a good one for him.
Someone is eventually going to do a detailed study showing a much
higher rate from Vietnam, and there's no way for the Progressives to
deny their leading role in making a bad situation exponentially worse.
Bill C

John Forrest Tomlinson

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

On Sun, 25 May 2008 18:24:27 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

>
>The past informs the future JT. How do you seperate people from their
>past? You can't seperate Africans from being enslaved, you can't
>seperate Jews from the Holocaust, you can't seperate Progressives from
>their past either.

Yeah, that's why I'll never vote Democratic. It was the Republicans
that freed the slaves.

John Forrest Tomlinson

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

On Sun, 25 May 2008 19:25:11 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

> Vietnam vets came home to brutal hostility from people on the left
>who actively supported the enemy.

So what? If you want to rag all over those people for what they did
then, great.

But believing that because, say, progressives in the early 1970s
treated veterans badly then means you can't trust a progressives 40
years later even though you agree with them on almost every
substantive issue now is just nutty.

MagillaGorilla

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

Bill C wrote:

> On May 25, 9:24 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>On May 25, 8:36 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, 26 May 2008 00:33:12 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
>>
>>><usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 25 May 2008 15:18:42 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>>>><tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>If Bush and company aren't guilty of treason it's only because the
>>>>>left fought so hard to make it almost impossible to prosecute someone
>>>>>for this, but they did that in self defense since there's no question
>>>>>in my mind Hanoi Jane, at least, was guilty of it along with many
>>>>>others.
>>
>>>>What is your problem? Everything has a bugaboo leftie behind it.
>>
>>>>The reason thet Bushco can't be prosecuted is that the evidence is
>>>>hidden behind executive privelege, destroyed evidence, a corrupt
>>>>justice department, etc.
>>
>>>One other thing Bill -start living in the present and start blaming
>>>people who are responsible NOW for what what's going on.
>>
>>>Clearly the left really upset you in the past, but you've got to let
>>>it go and view the world through current reality.
>>
>>>Or, if you don't want to let it go, blame them for whatever they did
>>>to you in the past, but stop viewing today through that old lens.
>>
>>The past informs the future JT. How do you seperate people from their
>>past? You can't seperate Africans from being enslaved, you can't
>>seperate Jews from the Holocaust, you can't seperate Progressives from
>>their past either.
>> I think I'm moving on. I can, and do recognize what's happening
>>today. A large part of that has been you in particular moving me on.
>> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -
>
>
> JT I'm really happy to see the liberal folks making the suicide rate
> today a big issue, because it is, but it's not smart strategy on their
> part.
> There's a much higher awareness today, better treatment, more support
> and many less troops than were in Vietnam.
> Vietnam vets came home to brutal hostility from people on the left
> who actively supported the enemy.
> Howard asked if I thought they were all traitors a while ago. I
> didn't answer then, and I`'ll answer this way today. The VC/NVA knew
> the couldn't win militarily, and that's from their own words and
> writings. They needed to break America's will to support South
> Vietnam. They were counting on the anti-war movement to do that for
> them. Tet destroyed the VC. They knew it was suicide going in, but
> also bet that it would be the straw that broke the support and won
> them the war. It was a tactical disaster, and strategically it won
> them the war because of what it did for the anti-war movement.
> If suicide is such a big issue now, how much worse was it then, when
> they were comning home to be hated and abused by the people who now
> claim to support them?

Soldiers don't commit suicide because citizens oppose a war. You make
it sound like when a soldier comes home and goes to Walmart, the
customers and cashier are harassing him about the war. And that this
goes on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

In reality, once you take off the uniform, nobody even knows if you
fought in a war.

How did the public "abuse" soldiers?

I remember at Kent State when National Guard killed 4 protesters. But I
don't recall any incident of a soldier being killed when they came home
from either Vietnam or Iraq.

Stop being so melodramatic.

Magilla

Bill C

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

On May 26, 5:52 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Sun, 25 May 2008 18:24:27 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>
> <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >The past informs the future JT. How do you seperate people from their
> >past? You can't seperate Africans from being enslaved, you can't
> >seperate Jews from the Holocaust, you can't seperate Progressives from
> >their past either.
>
> Yeah, that's why I'll never vote Democratic. It was the Republicans
> that freed the slaves.

JT, I never said it's rational. Lots of those 20 something activists
in the 70s are now 50 something leaders in the progressive movement.
Vets had it massively worse than they do now in the 70s and everyone
admits it's a problem now. You're right it's time to move on, and the
reality is totally different now, but the lives that were lost after
coming home, and those shattered by drugs, and alcohol trying to deal
with the experiences of the war, and the homecoming they had to deal
with aren't going to be miraculously returned, or repaired.
If you can give the folks who made it back home, and then self
destructed their lives back, then I won't have a problem with it
anymore.
I don't trust anyone who was steeped in, and lived an ideology, when
they all of a sudden say "I'm not that person anymore."
I sure as hell try to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I'm
gonna be wary. The best I can do, is what I am now, and recognize that
things have changed significantly and say so.
The good thing is that our generation should be the last generation
this is an issue for. I'm really proud of the fact that almost
everyone has learned from the past mistakes on all sides, and aren't
repeating them.
It's a great thing that people today can seperate the civilian
politicians, and their policies from the folks who are stuck carrying
it out. I'm proud of the fact that we can have the disagreements, and
peaceful protests now without people on either side getting abused.
That's what democracy is supposed to be about, and how it's supposed
to work.
Tha saddest part is that a ton of those kids wanted no part of it,
were drafted into it, given next to nothing to prepare them for it,
treated like shit by the non-draftee/career types, and then came home
to be abused for something they never wanted any part of, and were
pretty much totally abandoned by the government that forced them to go
fight too.

http://www.suicidewall.com/SWStats.html

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE3DE1038F932A35756C0A967958260

Vietnam Vets Built Memorial Themselves; The Hostile Reaction
Published: May 1, 1991
To the Editor:

As a Vietnam veteran who teaches and writes on the war, it was with
keen interest and a growing sense of astonishment that I read "The
Unforgotten Vietnam Vet" by Eric T. Dean Jr. (Op-Ed, April 18). Mr.
Dean's thesis is that American society, contrary to conventional
wisdom, has been obsessed with welcoming home the Vietnam veterans.
Vietnam veterans, he argues, were neither unpopular nor neglected.
Since I have never met a Vietnam veteran who does not say that coming
home was one of the most difficult and wrenching aspects of the entire
experience, this thesis deserves further comment.

<<snipped>>
I doubt that Mr. Dean ever experienced as an undergraduate, as I did
at the University of Massachusetts in 1973, a professor ordering him
in a class to explain what it felt like to "murder innocent peasants
in Southeast Asia." Or being told by a fellow student that she had "a
real moral dilemma" over whether to invite him to a party at her home.
Or countless other demonstrations of animosity that do not show up in
polls.

More reading there, and welcome to Happy Valley here.

I'm tired of being told that this never happened and I'm making it up.
Segregation happened, women as second class citizens happened, bias
against just about every type of immigrant happened and still is,
etc...
The only way to deal with any of this stuff is to admit it, talk
about all aspects of it, and learn from each other Denial doesn't
help.
You don't do that, and I really appreciate and respect that. While we
may disagree I really respect you, and your arguments, and thank you,
and others here for showing me your view of things in a positive
fashion.
I know it makes me a better person. The blanket garbage that gets
spewed around today about Liberal/Progressives being un-patriotic/un-
American is ridiculous. The people are supposed to challenge and
question the folks in Washington. We're also supposed to be able to
get rid of them fairly easily if we disagree with them and their
actions What's blatantly un-American is the rigging of the system,
done by incumbents, so that incumbents are protected, and have a
massive advantage over anyone opposing them. Spouting ditto, and
blindly waving a flag, don't make you a patriot. Questioning the
government, and protesting their actions right up to violence, or
violating people's rights doesn't make you un-American. Seems to me
that's the foundation of the American tradition.
Doesn't matter what you think of her, and her arguments, until Cindy
Sheehan starts doing radio spots for Al-Qaeda she's acting in the true
American tradition and is jst as patriotic as those attacking her.
I'd be hard pressed to think of anything more patriotic, in the true
sense, than dissenting from the government, within the Constitution,
and fighting to limit the power of the federal government and protect
our freedoms from the government.
I think it'd be easier to get past if there were more , not even
apologies, but concessions that maybe they could've treated folks
coming home better, maybe seperated the people in uniform from those
making the policy, or that they made mistakes too, but I really
haven't seen much of that. I could've missed it, and Fonda's "apology"
was only for posing on the anti-aircraft gun that was killing American
pilots, not for her support for the cause.
I'm sure you can see the difference between disagreeing, and
protesting our actions, and active support for an enemy. It's the
latter that I object to. That's why I wont call the vast majority of
the anti-Vietnam war folks, or those opposing the current mess un-
American, traitors, or anything like that. They aren't, and weren't
actively working for, and supporting the enemy. Those are far, and
few, in between. Their actions may help the enemy inadvertantly, but
so does our not cutting as much petroleum out as possible because
people like the Saudis channel some of that money directly to the
terrorists, and enemy. What's worse?
Bill C

Bill C

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

On May 26, 7:41 am, MagillaGorilla <magi...@zoo.com> wrote:
> Bill C wrote:
> > On May 25, 9:24 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>On May 25, 8:36 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> >>wrote:
>
> >>>On Mon, 26 May 2008 00:33:12 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
>
> >>><usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>On Sun, 25 May 2008 15:18:42 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
> >>>><tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>>>>If Bush and company aren't guilty of treason it's only because the
> >>>>>left fought so hard to make it almost impossible to prosecute someone
> >>>>>for this, but they did that in self defense since there's no question
> >>>>>in my mind Hanoi Jane, at least, was guilty of it along with many
> >>>>>others.
>
> >>>>What is your problem? Everything has a bugaboo leftie behind it.
>
> >>>>The reason thet Bushco can't be prosecuted is that the evidence is
> >>>>hidden behind executive privelege, destroyed evidence, a corrupt
> >>>>justice department, etc.
>
> >>>One other thing Bill -start living in the present and start blaming
> >>>people who are responsible NOW for what what's going on.
>
> >>>Clearly the left really upset you in the past, but you've got to let
> >>>it go and view the world through current reality.
>
> >>>Or, if you don't want to let it go, blame them for whatever they did
> >>>to you in the past, but stop viewing today through that old lens.
>
> >>The past informs the future JT. How do you seperate people from their
> >>past? You can't seperate Africans from being enslaved, you can't
> >>seperate Jews from the Holocaust, you can't seperate Progressives from
> >>their past either.
> >> I think I'm moving on. I can, and do recognize what's happening
> >>today. A large part of that has been you in particular moving me on.
> >> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> >>- Show quoted text -
>
> > JT I'm really happy to see the liberal folks making the suicide rate
> > today a big issue, because it is, but it's not smart strategy on their
> > part.
> > There's a much higher awareness today, better treatment, more support
> > and many less troops than were in Vietnam.
> > Vietnam vets came home to brutal hostility from people on the left
> > who actively supported the enemy.
> > Howard asked if I thought they were all traitors a while ago. I
> > didn't answer then, and I`'ll answer this way today. The VC/NVA knew
> > the couldn't win militarily, and that's from their own words and
> > writings. They needed to break America's will to support South
> > Vietnam. They were counting on the anti-war movement to do that for
> > them. Tet destroyed the VC. They knew it was suicide going in, but
> > also bet that it would be the straw that broke the support and won
> > them the war. It was a tactical disaster, and strategically it won
> > them the war because of what it did for the anti-war movement.
> > If suicide is such a big issue now, how much worse was it then, when
> > they were comning home to be hated and abused by the people who now
> > claim to support them?
>
> Soldiers don't commit suicide because citizens oppose a war. You make
> it sound like when a soldier comes home and goes to Walmart, the
> customers and cashier are harassing him about the war. And that this
> goes on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
>
> In reality, once you take off the uniform, nobody even knows if you
> fought in a war.
>
> How did the public "abuse" soldiers?
>
> I remember at Kent State when National Guard killed 4 protesters. But I
> don't recall any incident of a soldier being killed when they came home
> from either Vietnam or Iraq.
>
> Stop being so melodramatic.
>
> Magilla- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Go to your local Veterans hospital, or Vietnam vets support group and
talk to people, and listen to their stories.
Just got back from doing the round of the cemetaries.

Bill C

MagillaGorilla

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

Bill C wrote:

> On May 26, 7:41 am, MagillaGorilla <magi...@zoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Bill C wrote:
>>
>>>On May 25, 9:24 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>On May 25, 8:36 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>
>>>>>On Mon, 26 May 2008 00:33:12 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
>>
>>>>><usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 25 May 2008 15:18:42 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>>>>>><tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>If Bush and company aren't guilty of treason it's only because the
>>>>>>>left fought so hard to make it almost impossible to prosecute someone
>>>>>>>for this, but they did that in self defense since there's no question
>>>>>>>in my mind Hanoi Jane, at least, was guilty of it along with many
>>>>>>>others.
>>
>>>>>>What is your problem? Everything has a bugaboo leftie behind it.
>>
>>>>>>The reason thet Bushco can't be prosecuted is that the evidence is
>>>>>>hidden behind executive privelege, destroyed evidence, a corrupt
>>>>>>justice department, etc.
>>
>>>>>One other thing Bill -start living in the present and start blaming
>>>>>people who are responsible NOW for what what's going on.
>>
>>>>>Clearly the left really upset you in the past, but you've got to let
>>>>>it go and view the world through current reality.
>>
>>>>>Or, if you don't want to let it go, blame them for whatever they did
>>>>>to you in the past, but stop viewing today through that old lens.
>>
>>>>The past informs the future JT. How do you seperate people from their
>>>>past? You can't seperate Africans from being enslaved, you can't
>>>>seperate Jews from the Holocaust, you can't seperate Progressives from
>>>>their past either.
>>>>I think I'm moving on. I can, and do recognize what's happening
>>>>today. A large part of that has been you in particular moving me on.
>>>>Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>>- Show quoted text -
>>
>>>JT I'm really happy to see the liberal folks making the suicide rate
>>>today a big issue, because it is, but it's not smart strategy on their
>>>part.
>>> There's a much higher awareness today, better treatment, more support
>>>and many less troops than were in Vietnam.
>>> Vietnam vets came home to brutal hostility from people on the left
>>>who actively supported the enemy.
>>> Howard asked if I thought they were all traitors a while ago. I
>>>didn't answer then, and I`'ll answer this way today. The VC/NVA knew
>>>the couldn't win militarily, and that's from their own words and
>>>writings. They needed to break America's will to support South
>>>Vietnam. They were counting on the anti-war movement to do that for
>>>them. Tet destroyed the VC. They knew it was suicide going in, but
>>>also bet that it would be the straw that broke the support and won
>>>them the war. It was a tactical disaster, and strategically it won
>>>them the war because of what it did for the anti-war movement.
>>> If suicide is such a big issue now, how much worse was it then, when
>>>they were comning home to be hated and abused by the people who now
>>>claim to support them?
>>
>>Soldiers don't commit suicide because citizens oppose a war. You make
>>it sound like when a soldier comes home and goes to Walmart, the
>>customers and cashier are harassing him about the war. And that this
>>goes on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
>>
>>In reality, once you take off the uniform, nobody even knows if you
>>fought in a war.
>>
>>How did the public "abuse" soldiers?
>>
>>I remember at Kent State when National Guard killed 4 protesters. But I
>>don't recall any incident of a soldier being killed when they came home
>>from either Vietnam or Iraq.
>>
>>Stop being so melodramatic.
>>
>>Magilla- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -
>
>
> Go to your local Veterans hospital, or Vietnam vets support group and
> talk to people, and listen to their stories.
> Just got back from doing the round of the cemetaries.
>
> Bill C

I'm not sure I consider a citizen's opposition to a war to be the
equivalent of "soldier abuse" regardless of whether or not soldiers
perceive it to be that way or not.

A soldier shouldn't be looking for public support when they come back
from an unjust war. You're asking too much from the public.

Magilla

Fred Fredburger

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

Bill C wrote:
> On May 26, 7:41 am, MagillaGorilla <magi...@zoo.com> wrote:
>> Bill C wrote:
>>> On May 25, 9:24 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> On May 25, 8:36 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 26 May 2008 00:33:12 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
>>>>> <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 25 May 2008 15:18:42 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>>>>>> <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> If Bush and company aren't guilty of treason it's only because the
>>>>>>> left fought so hard to make it almost impossible to prosecute someone
>>>>>>> for this, but they did that in self defense since there's no question
>>>>>>> in my mind Hanoi Jane, at least, was guilty of it along with many
>>>>>>> others.
>>>>>> What is your problem? Everything has a bugaboo leftie behind it.
>>>>>> The reason thet Bushco can't be prosecuted is that the evidence is
>>>>>> hidden behind executive privelege, destroyed evidence, a corrupt
>>>>>> justice department, etc.
>>>>> One other thing Bill -start living in the present and start blaming
>>>>> people who are responsible NOW for what what's going on.
>>>>> Clearly the left really upset you in the past, but you've got to let
>>>>> it go and view the world through current reality.
>>>>> Or, if you don't want to let it go, blame them for whatever they did
>>>>> to you in the past, but stop viewing today through that old lens.
>>>> The past informs the future JT. How do you seperate people from their
>>>> past? You can't seperate Africans from being enslaved, you can't
>>>> seperate Jews from the Holocaust, you can't seperate Progressives from
>>>> their past either.
>>>> I think I'm moving on. I can, and do recognize what's happening
>>>> today. A large part of that has been you in particular moving me on.
>>>> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> JT I'm really happy to see the liberal folks making the suicide rate
>>> today a big issue, because it is, but it's not smart strategy on their
>>> part.
>>> There's a much higher awareness today, better treatment, more support
>>> and many less troops than were in Vietnam.
>>> Vietnam vets came home to brutal hostility from people on the left
>>> who actively supported the enemy.
>>> Howard asked if I thought they were all traitors a while ago. I
>>> didn't answer then, and I`'ll answer this way today. The VC/NVA knew
>>> the couldn't win militarily, and that's from their own words and
>>> writings. They needed to break America's will to support South
>>> Vietnam. They were counting on the anti-war movement to do that for
>>> them. Tet destroyed the VC. They knew it was suicide going in, but
>>> also bet that it would be the straw that broke the support and won
>>> them the war. It was a tactical disaster, and strategically it won
>>> them the war because of what it did for the anti-war movement.
>>> If suicide is such a big issue now, how much worse was it then, when
>>> they were comning home to be hated and abused by the people who now
>>> claim to support them?
>> Soldiers don't commit suicide because citizens oppose a war. You make
>> it sound like when a soldier comes home and goes to Walmart, the
>> customers and cashier are harassing him about the war. And that this
>> goes on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
>>
>> In reality, once you take off the uniform, nobody even knows if you
>> fought in a war.
>>
>> How did the public "abuse" soldiers?
>>
>> I remember at Kent State when National Guard killed 4 protesters. But I
>> don't recall any incident of a soldier being killed when they came home
>> from either Vietnam or Iraq.
>>
>> Stop being so melodramatic.
>>
>> Magilla- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Go to your local Veterans hospital, or Vietnam vets support group and
> talk to people, and listen to their stories.

A large percentage of human beings, generally, enjoy playing the role of
"victim". It absolves them of responsibility for their actions and the
results of their own choices.

Most of the veterans I know tend to be human beings.

John Forrest Tomlinson

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

On Mon, 26 May 2008 08:34:57 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

>On May 26, 5:52 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>wrote:
>> On Sun, 25 May 2008 18:24:27 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>>
>> <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> >The past informs the future JT. How do you seperate people from their
>> >past? You can't seperate Africans from being enslaved, you can't
>> >seperate Jews from the Holocaust, you can't seperate Progressives from
>> >their past either.
>>
>> Yeah, that's why I'll never vote Democratic. It was the Republicans
>> that freed the slaves.
>
>JT, I never said it's rational. Lots of those 20 something activists
>in the 70s are now 50 something leaders in the progressive movement.
>Vets had it massively worse than they do now in the 70s and everyone
>admits it's a problem now. You're right it's time to move on,

Then move on. Don't let your emotions about something keep making you
incapable of making good political choices now. Don't let your
emotions about one thing cause you to vote in a way that might
contribute to more soldiers dying/being wounded.

> I don't trust anyone who was steeped in, and lived an ideology, when
>they all of a sudden say "I'm not that person anymore."

You've been duped by the right. To suggest that any of the curent
holders of major national office in the US from either party are
"steeped" in ideology to screw vets is just not true. You've been
played by the right wing. I'll bet you watched a handful of clips
Reverand Wright videos and think Obama has the potential to get all
radical if he becomes president. You've totally been played.

Dude - look at politicans actions and judg them by it. Look at their
actions in the last five or ten years. Judge them by that. Do you
think Obama or Clinton or Edwards or Dean are some sort of
sleeper-cell 70s radicals who are going to screw veterans any worse
than the current government if Democratics win the next presidential
election. Get a grip.

JT

PS - I'm personally embarrassed when I'm irrational and try to
overcome it, not wallow in it.

Fred Fredburger

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sun, 25 May 2008 15:18:42 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
> <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> If Bush and company aren't guilty of treason it's only because the
>> left fought so hard to make it almost impossible to prosecute someone
>> for this, but they did that in self defense since there's no question
>> in my mind Hanoi Jane, at least, was guilty of it along with many
>> others.
>
> What is your problem? Everything has a bugaboo leftie behind it.

What is YOUR problem? It's handy to have a scapegoat. My wife left me
because of Jane Fonda. Those damned Democrats took my money. Liberals
made me fat.

Michael Press

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

In article <9eCdnWxg8dI3l6bVnZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@comcast.com>,
Fred Fredburger <Fred.Fredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos.Huh> wrote:

> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 May 2008 15:18:42 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
> > <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >> If Bush and company aren't guilty of treason it's only because the
> >> left fought so hard to make it almost impossible to prosecute someone
> >> for this, but they did that in self defense since there's no question
> >> in my mind Hanoi Jane, at least, was guilty of it along with many
> >> others.
> >
> > What is your problem? Everything has a bugaboo leftie behind it.
>
> What is YOUR problem? It's handy to have a scapegoat. My wife left me
> because of Jane Fonda.

You had an affair with Jane Fonda?

> Those damned Democrats took my money. Liberals
> made me fat.

I heard the liberals have a plan to slim you down.

--
Michael Press

Donald Munro

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

Fred Fredburger wrote:
>> Those damned Democrats took my money. Liberals made me fat.

Michael Press wrote:
> I heard the liberals have a plan to slim you down.

The Fredburgers are not 3rd world; 2nd rate perhaps but not
3rd world.

MagillaGorilla

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

Bill C wrote:

> On May 26, 12:32 pm, MagillaGorilla <magi...@zoo.com> wrote:

> I'll also hook you up with some gay kids in therapy here so you can
> call them names, scream at them, tell them they are subhuman, a
> disgrace to god, etc...Because that's not abuse in your book
> aparently, or Westboro baptists.

> Bill C

"Gay kids in therapy?"...not sure what your point is with that one.
Wetboro Baptists are entitled to to do what they do. Free speech.

Magilla

MagillaGorilla

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

Bill C wrote:

> On May 26, 12:32 pm, MagillaGorilla <magi...@zoo.com> wrote:

> I am incredibly offended by the idiots screaming "Babykiller" at
> women who have made the difficult, and traumatic decision to have an
> abortion. I'm equally offended by the folks who did it to kids coming
> home from war.

> Bill C

Women who have an abortion are essentially killing a baby. I don't
have a problem with it, but to deny what they are doing it is a little
bit like the logic that creationists use to claim evolution can't be true.

Thanks,

Magilla

Bill C

Re: Memorial Day (OT)

On May 26, 2:04 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:

>
> Dude - look at politicans actions and judg them by it. Look at their
> actions in the last five or ten years. Judge them by that. Do you
> think Obama or Clinton or Edwards or Dean are some sort of
> sleeper-cell 70s radicals who are going to screw veterans any worse
> than the current government if Democratics win the next presidential
> election. Get a grip.
>
> JT
>
> PS - I'm personally embarrassed when I'm irrational and try to
> overcome it, not wallow in it.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Lets take this one point at a time. My objection to Obama, and Clinton
aren't based on what they are going to do to veterans, or the
military. I'm far from a one issue voter, and currently I don't
believe that the leadership of either party supports my positions.
My problems with Obama start with his voting record. It's left of Ted
Kennedy, he's nowhere near a uniter, or moderate based solely on his
voting record and statements he's made.
My problems with the left are their support of speech codes, see any
college campus etc...I see an effort to institute the types of speech
codes Europe has here with a Democratic President and Congress. I see
them gutting the second amendment and disarming the law abiding
citizens while allowing the criminals to run wild as they have in
Washington DC. What makes you think if they pass a law the criminals
will line up to hand in their guns? Everywhere thats been done home
invasions and other crimes have gone up.
I see a return to Jimmy Carter's foreign policy and the leaders of
Hamas, and Hezbollah being hosted at either the Whitehouse, or Camp
David. Carter cut a deal with, and buddied up to Arafat. Where did
that cut down the Islamic terrorist attacks?
On health care I see a huge government plan to give cradle to grave
coverage to just about everyone, as Europe has, and is struggling with
rather than a simple re-working, and expansion of medicaid so that
everyone has coverage, and mandating that all providers must treat
those patients the same as everyone else, or face massive fines and
jail time.
I see a return to the "law enforcement", "Get the UN to do something
about the terrorists" approach and we saw how well that worked in NYC,
and is working in Tibet, Sudan, controlling Irans Nuclear program
etc...I see a massive, mandatory, "global warming" plan that would
make manufacturing and other things much more expensive here in the US
which would cause massive offshoring of what industry we have left to
places that either didn't sign on, or did and have never bothered to
actually do any of what they said they would.
I have a huge problem with abortion on demand for children without
parental notification. There are cases where a kid would be in danger
from the parent, and there should be a simple mechanism to deal with
that, but I see parental rights getting steamrollered. Here in Mass.
you are responsible for your kid, but they can block you from access
to their medical records and doctor just because they say so. That's
wrong, and would be expanded IMO by the left. I'm fundamentally
opposed to more and bigger government and higher taxes, that's a given
from the left, and almost as much from the right these days.
While I'm incredibly pro environmentalism, I do object, unless it can
be conclusively shown to be necessary to massive "Wilderness"
designations that would ban all people, other than scientists etc from
the areas. That's being driven for right now. All the people should
have access, on foot, horseback, or bicycle, nothing motorised in
those areas, including for hunting and fishing as controlled by
wildlife biologists/management folks. That's not the case currently.
Hunters and fishermen have repeatedly voted to tax themselves,
primarily through sales tax on the equipment to support these
programs, both at the Federal and State levels. The hiking/backpacking/
camping etc...segment have fought, and shot down any suggestion to
expand that type of thing to their equipment, but are fighting hard to
ban hunting primarily, and fishing in many cases.
I don't support the position that religion needs to be sanitised out
of public life. The law says the government is supposed to be totally
neutral, and that's how it should be, not attacking it at every turn.
There's nothing that says what you have to do with a moment of silence
but folks on the left are trying to have even that removed. If a
school allows gatherings, and clubs to use facilities then they need
to be available to all groups that don't present a direct threat.
That's not the current position of large portions of the left.
I think the quotes I posted on education are pretty clear, and I have
serious problems with that philosophy, and it's driven by the left.
I wasn't crazy about Bill Clinton, but could live with him, now
you've got Howard, if I understood him correctly, and others saying
that Clinton might as well have been a Republican and we need
something much more to the left. Sorry doesn't work for me.
I have issues with Wright's statements and attitude, but I have
bogger problems with Obama, either, lieing about having no clue that
he was like that, or since he was touting his spirituality and how
important it was to him, his close relationship with Wright, and NOT
knowing what he was about after a 20 year relationship.
Those are some of the high points of my disagreements with the folks
on the left, and freedom of speech, parental rights and protections,
and the 2nd amendment are not negotiable.
I'll have to tell my ex-hippie friends that they have to stop hating,
and mistrusting cops, because the harrassment they went through is
water under the bridge, no?
If you want the list of bitches with the morons on the right just say
so, basically you could mirror image my complaints about the left and
get them though.
Neither party, and especially not their leadership, or candidates
represent what I want. As I said before Olympia Snowe comes pretty
close, and my guess would be that I could find a moderate, probably
southern congresscritter for a Democrat, but most of the ones that
would seem to fit the bill are anti-Roe v Wade and that's a deal
breaker for me.
Like I said Vermont works well, and Howard Dean is still fighting the
State up there as far as I know about access to his "privileged" stuff
same as Bush is. Dean's an idiot at best.
I don't see any "live and let live" type Democrats anywhere near the
leadership. They're in the same boat as folks like Bill Weld and most
of the moderate Republicans.
Bill C