How to touch wheels and not fall off?

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On May 28, 9:41 pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:

> Also if some novice is swerving around in
> the peloton, tell him to knock it off.

Or send him to the school of hard knocks and let him find out first
hand why swerving around isn't wise ;-)

Somebody swerving in from the side, I call gettting taken out, not
touching wheels. To me, touching wheels means when I through some
inattentiveness let my wheel contact the wheel already in front of me.
That need not result in a crash.


Joseph

On Wed, 28 May 2008 12:41:49 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."
<carbide@egine.com> wrote:

>I'm just saying that their rear wheel can easily push your front
>wheel aside, but no matter how good you are, you can't simply push
>someone's rear wheel aside with your front wheel.

You're slightly shifting the discussion. The core issue is staying
up, not pushing the other rider's rear wheel away.

A number of people in this group have fought to prevent their wheel
being turned and stayed up. And/or seen it happen. It's very doable,
esp. with a little practice, willpower and perhaps a touch of luck.


>* there's very little time to do the right thing. As soon as his rear
>wheel pushes your front wheel aside you are falling.

Not necessarily. Usually, but not necessarily. Practive and willpower
can help reduce the likelihood.

On Wed, 28 May 2008 13:04:01 -0700 (PDT),
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:

>On May 28, 9:41 pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
>
>> Also if some novice is swerving around in
>> the peloton, tell him to knock it off.
>
>Or send him to the school of hard knocks and let him find out first
>hand why swerving around isn't wise ;-)

Or don't ride close behind him.

On May 28, 1:04 pm, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 28, 9:41 pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
>
> > Also if some novice is swerving around in
> > the peloton, tell him to knock it off.
>
> Or send him to the school of hard knocks and let him find out first
> hand why swerving around isn't wise ;-)
>
> Somebody swerving in from the side, I call gettting taken out, not
> touching wheels. To me, touching wheels means when I through some
> inattentiveness let my wheel contact the wheel already in front of me.
> That need not result in a crash.
>
> Joseph

OK. I can agree with that, and whoever said don't panic.
-Paul

On May 28, 10:10 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, 28 May 2008 13:04:01 -0700 (PDT),
>
> "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com" <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 28, 9:41 pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
>
> >>  Also if some novice is swerving around in
> >> the peloton, tell him to knock it off.
>
> >Or send him to the school of hard knocks and let him find out first
> >hand why swerving around isn't wise ;-)
>
> Or don't ride close behind him.  

I was of course just kidding. Novices are usually open to constructive
criticism. It's much worse with more experienced riders who should
know better but for some reason are still wild swervers. Novices who
are unpredictable, I will let know in a friendly way that they should
clean up their style. Old hands who are unpredictable, I just avoid.
Easier said than done.

Joseph

On May 28, 2:50 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:

> My undertutored theory is that most crashes result from over-controlling
> rather than under-controlling, and maybe not being quite as focused
> about keeping it upright (target fixation is fun!) as not-crashy riders
> are.

Dumbass,

I crashed once from "undercontrolling," or just being "too relaxed."
Not as contact with anyone, but by hitting an "invisible asphalt knot"
coming out of a corner.

I was almost out of the corner and started to stand to respond to a
gap that had been allowed to form (not by me). Right at that moment
"something" knocked the handlbars out of my hands, for which I had a
relaxed hold on. Of course, at that point I could not steer and went
into the opposite curb. It sort of hurt.

I had to go back over and look closely at the road to see the knotted
up section, as there was no crack and not much discoloration. I could
not explain the loss of control any other way. It was sort of like an
inverted crack would be if your front wheel hit it. I was not looking
down, but forward to the riders and the gap at the time of control
loss.

My dumbass lessons were:
1. wait till being all the way out of the corner before standing/
accelerating
2. if not waiting, keep a strong hold on the handlebars unless the
pavement is known to be very good. Or just keep a strong hold for
that sort of move in any case.

It sucked.

On May 28, 1:07 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, 28 May 2008 12:41:49 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."
>
> <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
> >I'm just saying that their rear wheel can easily push your front
> >wheel aside, but no matter how good you are, you can't simply push
> >someone's rear wheel aside with your front wheel.
>
> You're slightly shifting the discussion. The core issue is staying
> up, not pushing the other rider's rear wheel away.
>

Read your first post, way up there at the top:

"Don't let the wheel in front of you turn your front wheel. Usually
that means pushing back with your wheel, but being ready to stop doing
that the instant there is separation. "

Stop trying to bullshit me. There is a science to this. If you can
keep your front wheel under your center of gravity you can stay
upright. If someone's wheel barely touches yours, sure, you have a
chance to do that, but if they nudge your front wheel even an inch to
the side your bike will turn sharply and gravity will take over.

I'll be happy to demonstrate this at $100 per lesson. Or if you're so
confident that "it's very doable" I'll give you odds. How about 4 to
1? If you can stay upright 50% of the time, you can make some real
money.

-Paul

On May 28, 3:52 pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:

> "Don't let the wheel in front of you turn your front wheel.  Usually
> that means pushing back with your wheel, but being ready to stop doing
> that the instant there is separation. "
>
> Stop trying to bullshit me. There is a science to this. If you can
> keep your front wheel under your center of gravity you can stay
> upright. If someone's wheel barely touches yours, sure, you have a
> chance to do that, but if they nudge your front wheel even an inch to
> the side your bike will turn sharply and gravity will take over.

You prevent your front wheel from turning, to keep your COG under you
and going the same way (approx.) the bike is going.

('nother story): I had a 100lb. female following me, traveling down a
road where there was traffic, and suddenly the shoulder ended, with a
dropoff-- some kind of deal where they were going to add a lane on the
RH side. Whoops, there we were. There was some traffic, with a turnoff
coming up. Nowhere else to go, so we hustled along to get off that
road. I thought I was over to the left plenty far, when we got hit
with a blasting sidewind which moved me over right, and right into
her. She knew what to do, and good thing, because I promise I moved
her over a lot more than an inch while I fought for control and moved
back over to the left. I was 180lbs plus bike, and she moved *me* over
back left after I moved her over to the right <g>, fighting to not get
crashed off the edge of the slab. I would have felt really bad and
really stupid if she'd gotten hurt, as I had some experience at least
by that point and she was a beginner.

We're back to the "fight for it" thing here, is the object. Hammer
hammer hammer. Beginners often don't have that concept. --D-y

On May 28, 1:10 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, 28 May 2008 13:04:01 -0700 (PDT),
>
> "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com" <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 28, 9:41 pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
>
> >> Also if some novice is swerving around in
> >> the peloton, tell him to knock it off.
>
> >Or send him to the school of hard knocks and let him find out first
> >hand why swerving around isn't wise ;-)
>
> Or don't ride close behind him.

I was thinking about a specific incident at the beginning of a
criterium. The guy hadn't affected me...yet. But he was ahead and to
my left. I was thinking if he took down someone ahead of me, there
could easily be a pileup that might include me. That's the only time I
can remember actually yelling at someone in a race. And he did knock
it off.
-Paul

On May 28, 2:48 pm, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
> On May 28, 3:52 pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
>
> > "Don't let the wheel in front of you turn your front wheel. Usually
> > that means pushing back with your wheel, but being ready to stop doing
> > that the instant there is separation. "
>
> > Stop trying to bullshit me. There is a science to this. If you can
> > keep your front wheel under your center of gravity you can stay
> > upright. If someone's wheel barely touches yours, sure, you have a
> > chance to do that, but if they nudge your front wheel even an inch to
> > the side your bike will turn sharply and gravity will take over.
>
> You prevent your front wheel from turning, to keep your COG under you
> and going the same way (approx.) the bike is going.
>
> ('nother story): I had a 100lb. female following me, traveling down a
> road where there was traffic, and suddenly the shoulder ended, with a
> dropoff-- some kind of deal where they were going to add a lane on the
> RH side. Whoops, there we were. There was some traffic, with a turnoff
> coming up. Nowhere else to go, so we hustled along to get off that
> road. I thought I was over to the left plenty far, when we got hit
> with a blasting sidewind which moved me over right, and right into
> her. She knew what to do, and good thing, because I promise I moved
> her over a lot more than an inch while I fought for control and moved
> back over to the left. I was 180lbs plus bike, and she moved *me* over
> back left after I moved her over to the right <g>, fighting to not get
> crashed off the edge of the slab. I would have felt really bad and
> really stupid if she'd gotten hurt, as I had some experience at least
> by that point and she was a beginner.
>
> We're back to the "fight for it" thing here, is the object. Hammer
> hammer hammer. Beginners often don't have that concept. --D-y

Was this your rear wheel clipping her front wheel or something
different? Sure, riders can survive a bump, we see guys leaning on
each other in sprints all the time. It's a whole other thing when
someone clips your front wheel. If you think otherwise, I've got a
lucrative bet for you up there. I guarantee my rear wheel will easily
turn your front wheel and you will fall. My bike is effectively a
lever, with the long end being the distance between my axles and the
short end being the rear half of my rear wheel. That's a hell of a
lever. It can easily deflect your front wheel. You can "fight for it"
as hard as you want, I'll hardly notice. That's why, as the original
poster says, "everyone who does it on the club rides that I go on
always does crash."

Besides, are you gay or something? Real men always ride behind the
woman, to enjoy the view. I like the ones with long braids down their
backs, tight lycra shorts... Yeah baby! ;-)
-Paul

In article
<e3eea9a7-b23a-4c6f-90c0-4d6aade85718@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Bret <bret.wade@gmail.com> wrote:

> On May 28, 1:50 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As someone who has spent a relatively large amount of time with my
> > wheels in weird places and a relatively small amount of time lying on
> > the ground, bleeding, I'd suggest that the best advice is not to panic.
>
> Long ago on the Tuesday evening training race (Bustop ride) from
> Boulder, I was in a train moving forward just before the final sprint.
> Someone tried to switch abruptly to the wheel I was on and we bounced
> off each other for a while. Neither of us crashed but we both got
> knocked out of the sprint. I later found out that his front wheel had
> ripped an adjustment screw out of my rear derailleur. It was Scott
> Berryman who was one of the top match sprinters in the country. I'm
> guessing that he weighed about 220 lbs at the time. We're rolling
> along together and I'm griping at him about switching over to the
> wheel like that without looking to see if it's occupied. His answer
> was that I should ride track and then I wouldn't get so excited when
> things like that happened. Then he tried to sell me a track bike. I
> remember thinking that I didn't need to get used to that. Over twenty
> years later I ran into him on a training ride. He's the same
> gregarious fellow and we had an interesting conversation. I mentioned
> the Bustop incident and found he has no recollection at all.
>
> Anyway, I think Potter should build a velodrome in his backyard. If
> you build it they will come.

I once explained to a fellow ice hockey fan why I never
played competitive sports of any kind. He said "You were
right to stay out of them." These kinds of incidents with
me involved would end with blood spilled or the other
party punked out. I do not back off of interactions with
potential for violence, and therefore conduct my affairs
in such a way that they do not arise. He would have remembered me.

--
Michael Press

In article
<36366002-d858-4971-aca2-ae9068ffb5dd@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>,
SLAVE of THE STATE <gwhite@ti.com> wrote:

> On May 28, 2:50 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > My undertutored theory is that most crashes result from over-controlling
> > rather than under-controlling, and maybe not being quite as focused
> > about keeping it upright (target fixation is fun!) as not-crashy riders
> > are.
>
> Dumbass,
>
> I crashed once from "undercontrolling," or just being "too relaxed."
> Not as contact with anyone, but by hitting an "invisible asphalt knot"
> coming out of a corner.
>
> I was almost out of the corner and started to stand to respond to a
> gap that had been allowed to form (not by me). Right at that moment
> "something" knocked the handlbars out of my hands, for which I had a
> relaxed hold on. Of course, at that point I could not steer and went
> into the opposite curb. It sort of hurt.
>
> I had to go back over and look closely at the road to see the knotted
> up section, as there was no crack and not much discoloration. I could
> not explain the loss of control any other way. It was sort of like an
> inverted crack would be if your front wheel hit it. I was not looking
> down, but forward to the riders and the gap at the time of control
> loss.
>
> My dumbass lessons were:
> 1. wait till being all the way out of the corner before standing/
> accelerating
> 2. if not waiting, keep a strong hold on the handlebars unless the
> pavement is known to be very good. Or just keep a strong hold for
> that sort of move in any case.
>
> It sucked.

You redefined under-controlling to mean not having control
of the bicycle. They are two different things. One must be
able to make the bicycle do what one wants (and it is capable of doing)
at any time.

--
Michael Press

On May 28, 6:18 pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:

> Was this your rear wheel clipping her front wheel

Yes.

> It's a whole other thing when
> someone clips your front wheel.

We were talking about "clipping wheels" when discussing unintentional
comings-together.

> If you think otherwise,

I know otherwise. One example I offered, yes I was kind of fastened to
the guy who hooked me, but if I had just let the bars turn, there
would have been a crash. Maybe both of us. I guess I could have done
my best to land on him whose fault it was 2x, but I like my solution
better <g>.

> I've got a
> lucrative bet for you up there. I guarantee my rear wheel will easily
> turn your front wheel and you will fall.  My bike is effectively a
> lever, with the long end being the distance between my axles and the
> short end being the rear half of my rear wheel.  That's a hell of a
> lever. It can easily deflect your front wheel. You can "fight for it"
> as hard as you want, I'll hardly notice.

Unless (speaking hypothetically) I take you down, instead. Like I
said, I've seen it done. Rare, difficult maybe but very possible.

> That's why, as the original
> poster says, "everyone who does it on the club rides that I go on
> always does crash."

Too many people riding in that group who don't know what they're
doing. Clippers and clipees both. Meaning, too much moving sideways
without looking first, too much careless, foolish overlapping of
wheels, and finally, not knowing what to do if there is a cross-up.
The crashes (which the OP made seem common) are proof. Period.

Funny thing, I had good teachers. "Don't overlap" (until you know what
you're doing), and "don't move over without checking FIRST" were as
fundamental as "here's what to do if you get caught on a rear wheel".

It's been 28, 29 years in groups now (not in races), depending on
counting, some years much more riding than others, for sure. I've
never touched a wheel, not even once a little bit, on a group ride. I
do a lot of glued-on sitting, had lots of close calls from the wheel
ahead switching or coming back on standups, but never once an incident
of contact. It's not an accident, and that with not being (really)
afraid to touch, or grind the hell out of a wheel, by any means. I
just don't want to, a point of pride I guess. Not to take all the
credit by any means, I ride with some pretty good hands. Not all, and
there are a few who have resisted learning for years and years. But
then, I look for a good wheel and stick on it, like I was taught all
those years ago. Improves the odds a bunch, you know? The bad wheels,
if I'm temporarily stuck behind, I give them xtra xtra room. Simple. A
lot of people don't think when they ride, like they want to get away
from thinking or something, have you ever noticed?

> Besides, are you gay or something? Real men always ride behind the
> woman, to enjoy the view.  I like the ones with long braids down their
> backs, tight lycra shorts...  Yeah baby!  ;-)

Well that was gratuitous. "Real men" and other good riders use their
strength to make things go well for others, especially newcomers, of
any gender. In a "ride" situation, of course. I moved that girl over
via her front wheel, with my rear wheel. Nearly twice her body weight,
plus wind pushing. She fought it off, moved me doing it, stayed up. I
like the possibilities of crash prevention in my universe a lot better
than in yours, thankyouverymuch. That's why I posted the front wheel
slide anecdote, another example of overcoming "there's nothing you can
do". Well, sometimes there is nothing you can do. Or, you should have
done something else <g>! But a passive attitude, accepting crashes,
"bad luck" and so forth is nowhere. --D-y

In article <e58r34dmee0v5mn05h98fvkvkovrujg2uq@4ax.com>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 May 2008 10:17:36 -0700 (PDT), "dustoyevsky@mac.com"
> <dustoyevsky@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >Certainly worth a fight to stay up.
>
> Yeah, besides the great details you gave, this is sooo important. And
> important in other situations. In trouble situations on the bike too
> many people either panic and jerk something like the bars or their
> brakes and take themselves out (I think this is why people crash when
> a squirrel runs into their wheel) or accept that they are going down
> w/o fighting it.
>
> The only time to accept going down is when staying up or delaying the
> fall would be worse -- say you have a choice being going down right
> away in a slide or going down later by flipping over a wall or into a
> car or something.

Had an oncoming a pizza delivery car left turn in front
of 20 mph me. I put the bicycle sideways, got my line
of travel parallel to him, collapsed my rear wheel,
and stayed up.

To make his day I filed a police report and kept him on
the scene for an hour until it was sorted out with no
further action.

--
Michael Press

On Wed, 28 May 2008 17:12:30 -0700 (PDT), "dustoyevsky@mac.com"
<dustoyevsky@mac.com> wrote:

>Funny thing, I had good teachers. "Don't overlap" (until you know what
>you're doing), and "don't move over without checking FIRST" were as
>fundamental as "here's what to do if you get caught on a rear wheel".

Don't overlap is important most of the time.

But it took me awhile to realize it's possible to overlap if the guy
in front of you is overlapped in such a way that if he moves over in
the direction that would hit my front wheel, he'd hit the guy in front
of him. Whereas if that guy moved, it'd move the guy directly in front
of me away from my front wheel.

That's how overlapping in a tight bunch that's several riders wide can
be not quite as dangerous as it looks.

On May 28, 7:10 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <36366002-d858-4971-aca2-ae9068ffb...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>,
>  SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 28, 2:50 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > My undertutored theory is that most crashes result from over-controlling
> > > rather than under-controlling, and maybe not being quite as focused
> > > about keeping it upright (target fixation is fun!) as not-crashy riders
> > > are.
>
> > Dumbass,
>
> > I crashed once from "undercontrolling," or just being "too relaxed."
> > Not as contact with anyone, but by hitting an "invisible asphalt knot"
> > coming out of a corner.
>
> > I was almost out of the corner and started to stand to respond to a
> > gap that had been allowed to form (not by me).  Right at that moment
> > "something" knocked the handlbars out of my hands, for which I had a
> > relaxed hold on.  Of course, at that point I could not steer and went
> > into the opposite curb.  It sort of hurt.
>
> > I had to go back over and look closely at the road to see the knotted
> > up section, as there was no crack and not much discoloration.  I could
> > not explain the loss of control any other way.  It was sort of like an
> > inverted crack would be if your front wheel hit it.  I was not looking
> > down, but forward to the riders and the gap at the time of control
> > loss.
>
> > My dumbass lessons were:
> > 1. wait till being all the way out of the corner before standing/
> > accelerating
> > 2. if not waiting, keep a strong hold on the handlebars unless the
> > pavement is known to be very good.  Or just keep a strong hold for
> > that sort of move in any case.
>
> > It sucked.
>
> You redefined under-controlling to mean not having control
> of the bicycle. They are two different things. One must be
> able to make the bicycle do what one wants (and it is capable of doing)
> at any time.

Dumbass,

I put it in quotes just for nitpickers and also qualified by "or just
being 'too relaxed.'"

I did have control up to the moment I lost control. Crashing and
"falling off" are by definition a matter of having lost control. That
is, unless one crashes on purpose. But "on purpose" isn't really a
crash but a "had appearances very similar to a crash."

"I meant to fall down the stairs." -- BF

I used an earlier version in college, and I'm thinking of forwarding
it to Schwartzsoft for code enhancement:
http://www.amazon.com/Automatic-Control-Systems-Benjamin-Kuo/dp/0471134767/

Allow me too infringe on some Schwartzsoft IP:
kkoreStrArray(53) = 'control';
wdykaStr = sprintf('What do you know about %s?',kkoreStrArray(53));

On May 28, 6:04 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <e3eea9a7-b23a-4c6f-90c0-4d6aade85...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>  Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On May 28, 1:50 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > As someone who has spent a relatively large amount of time with my
> > > wheels in weird places and a relatively small amount of time lying on
> > > the ground, bleeding, I'd suggest that the best advice is not to panic..
>
> > Long ago on the Tuesday evening training race (Bustop ride) from
> > Boulder, I was in a train moving forward just before the final sprint.
> > Someone tried to switch abruptly to the wheel I was on and we bounced
> > off each other for a while. Neither of us crashed but we both got
> > knocked out of the sprint. I later found out that his front wheel had
> > ripped an adjustment screw out of my rear derailleur. It was Scott
> > Berryman who was one of the top match sprinters in the country. I'm
> > guessing that he weighed about 220 lbs at the time. We're rolling
> > along together and I'm griping at him about switching over to the
> > wheel like that without looking to see if it's occupied. His answer
> > was that I should ride track and then I wouldn't get so excited when
> > things like that happened. Then he tried to sell me a track bike. I
> > remember thinking that I didn't need to get used to that. Over twenty
> > years later I ran into him on a training ride. He's the same
> > gregarious fellow and we had an interesting conversation. I mentioned
> > the Bustop incident and found he has no recollection at all.
>
> > Anyway, I think Potter should build a velodrome in his backyard. If
> > you build it they will come.
>
> I once explained to a fellow ice hockey fan why I never
> played competitive sports of any kind. He said "You were
> right to stay out of them." These kinds of incidents with
> me involved would end with blood spilled or the other
> party punked out. I do not back off of interactions with
> potential for violence, and therefore conduct my affairs
> in such a way that they do not arise. He would have remembered me.

It wasn't as hostile a situation as you seem to think. I griped a
little, he got a bit snippy. I saved my anger for the folks that tried
to knock me down intentionally, or were pretending to.

One guy body-slammed me just before our break group started to sprint.
I was the best sprinter in the break and he was trying to help a
teammate win. He pretended it was an accident. He also locked up his
brakes in front of me once in another race.

I had a whole team mad at me about something I posted here on rbr. I
had made what I thought was a humorous comparison between their team
race and Milan San Remo and they didn't take it well. A few of them
just gave me a piece of their mind, but one of them started chopping
me in races. He once went out of his way to keep me from getting
shelter in a crosswind and ended up pushing himself off the road while
trying to ward me off.

The only guy I ever really held a grudge against tried to use me to
knock somebody else down. I was riding in between them and he put his
hand on my bars and shoved them into the other guy's bars. Neither of
us went down but the target broke a spoke on my pedal. The flake was a
guy named Walter that used to wrench for the 7-Eleven women's team. He
didn't have a good reason to be mad at the other guy, much less me.

Bret

"Bret" <bret.wade@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e3eea9a7-b23a-4c6f-90c0-4d6aade85718@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On May 28, 1:50 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:

> As someone who has spent a relatively large amount of time with my
> wheels in weird places and a relatively small amount of time lying on
> the ground, bleeding, I'd suggest that the best advice is not to panic.

Long ago on the Tuesday evening training race (Bustop ride) from
Boulder, I was in a train moving forward just before the final sprint.
Someone tried to switch abruptly to the wheel I was on and we bounced
off each other for a while. Neither of us crashed but we both got
knocked out of the sprint. I later found out that his front wheel had
ripped an adjustment screw out of my rear derailleur. It was Scott
Berryman who was one of the top match sprinters in the country. I'm
guessing that he weighed about 220 lbs at the time. We're rolling
along together and I'm griping at him about switching over to the
wheel like that without looking to see if it's occupied. His answer
was that I should ride track and then I wouldn't get so excited when
things like that happened. Then he tried to sell me a track bike. I
remember thinking that I didn't need to get used to that. Over twenty
years later I ran into him on a training ride. He's the same
gregarious fellow and we had an interesting conversation. I mentioned
the Bustop incident and found he has no recollection at all.

Anyway, I think Potter should build a velodrome in his backyard. If
you build it they will come.

Bret
-------------------------

Berryman's comments were partially typical track sprinter posturing and
partially his acceptance of crashing as a part of what he did. I don't
recall him ever suffering a broken bone, but his skin took beating many a
time.

On May 28, 11:21 am, Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Long ago on the Tuesday evening training race (Bustop ride) from
> Boulder, I was in a train moving forward just before the final sprint.
> Someone tried to switch abruptly to the wheel I was on and we bounced
> off each other for a while. Neither of us crashed but we both got
> knocked out of the sprint. I later found out that his front wheel had
> ripped an adjustment screw out of my rear derailleur. It was Scott
> Berryman who was one of the top match sprinters in the country. I'm
> guessing that he weighed about 220 lbs at the time. We're rolling
> along together and I'm griping at him about switching over to the
> wheel like that without looking to see if it's occupied. His answer
> was that I should ride track and then I wouldn't get so excited when
> things like that happened. Then he tried to sell me a track bike. I
> remember thinking that I didn't need to get used to that. Over twenty
> years later I ran into him on a training ride. He's the same
> gregarious fellow and we had an interesting conversation. I mentioned
> the Bustop incident and found he has no recollection at all.
>
> Anyway, I think Potter should build a velodrome in his backyard. If
> you build it they will come.

I think he was running a successful business
and this was all part of his standard pitch to
sell track bikes. That's why he didn't remember
the incident. Any salesman has to make more
pitches than sales, and you can't remember
all the prospects who didn't bite. You have to
remember the good customers.

If Potter builds a velodrome in his backyard,
we should go. RBR Road Trip!

Ben

On May 28, 10:24 pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
wrote:
> On May 28, 11:21 am, Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Long ago on the Tuesday evening training race (Bustop ride) from
> > Boulder, I was in a train moving forward just before the final sprint.
> > Someone tried to switch abruptly to the wheel I was on and we bounced
> > off each other for a while. Neither of us crashed but we both got
> > knocked out of the sprint. I later found out that his front wheel had
> > ripped an adjustment screw out of my rear derailleur. It was Scott
> > Berryman who was one of the top match sprinters in the country. I'm
> > guessing that he weighed about 220 lbs at the time. We're rolling
> > along together and I'm griping at him about switching over to the
> > wheel like that without looking to see if it's occupied. His answer
> > was that I should ride track and then I wouldn't get so excited when
> > things like that happened. Then he tried to sell me a track bike. I
> > remember thinking that I didn't need to get used to that. Over twenty
> > years later I ran into him on a training ride. He's the same
> > gregarious fellow and we had an interesting conversation. I mentioned
> > the Bustop incident and found he has no recollection at all.
>
> > Anyway, I think Potter should build a velodrome in his backyard. If
> > you build it they will come.
>
> I think he was running a successful business
> and this was all part of his standard pitch to
> sell track bikes.  That's why he didn't remember
> the incident.  Any salesman has to make more
> pitches than sales, and you can't remember
> all the prospects who didn't bite.  You have to
> remember the good customers.
>
> If Potter builds a velodrome in his backyard,
> we should go.  RBR Road Trip!
>
> Ben

He wasn't that great a salesman. When he offered to sell me a track
bike, I asked him if it was the bike I'd seen him crash on TV
recently. Nothing I'd said up to that point had bothered him, but he
muttered something about me questioning his honesty and rode off. He
was riding beautiful black Serottas at the time. I would have liked to
own one.

Bret