Mental marathoning

[ahass]

You probably thought this had to do with the common reaction we marathoners get from people when we
tell them we voluntarily run 26.2 mile races and call 22 miles a training run... "What are you,
MENTAL???" No, actually this is just about how the way you think can affect you going into a
marathon. I believe a huge part of the marathon is mental. If you don't think you can do it, guess
what...you won't. In a race that long, there are no big surprised. I've never heard of someone
showing up thinking they could only run 3:30 and popping a 2:45. To a certain point, your belief in
your conditioning and ability will set a speed limit on you on race day. A year ago, I started
Chicago eyeing a 2:32. That's what I told everyone, but really I thought I just might get 2:30 under
perfect race conditions. While I didn't get my perfect conditions, I did get 33 seconds under that
2:30. But I knew the possibility was there, and that's all that made it possible. For the past year
I have been busting myself week in and week out trying to take another 7.5 minutes off to
make the Olympic Trials qualifier, 2:22:00. There were ups and downs for the first few
months, but by mid-July I really thought I was on course to make my goal. Then, for a variety
of reason, problems arose. Work, personal life, and 9 straight weeks over 97 (high of 122)
seem to have led to a moderate case of over-training. Now I can't do the workouts I could a
month ago, and even easy runs make my legs dead. So now it's a mental game. How do I convince
myself that I can go out and run near that 2:22 like I should be able to after a taper, even
if my whole last month of workouts are far from that quality? Should I even try it or bag it
and adjust my goal to a slower time? The worst part of marathoning is that if you blow one
race, you can't go back and run another next week or even next month. While the training may
help you for years down the road, a lot of that effort is simply blown. Makes me with I was a
miler! So basically I'm just saying pay attention to your attitude and mental confidence
going into a marathon. #1 you must believe in yourself and your abilities. Somehow I have to
get back there in the next few weeks, since I can't say I believe in it right now. Good luck
to all you fall marathoners. Andy Hass

[Doug Freese]

ahass@dontspamumich.edu wrote:
>
> I believe a huge part of the marathon is mental.

It's a piece of the puzzle but in my opinion not huge especially when distance AND speed
is involved.

> If you don't think you can do it, guess what...you won't.

True but you can't just will it either. The right training, a great taper AND feeling stromg will
give you that mental edge.

> For the past year I have been busting myself week in and week out trying to take another 7.5
> minutes off to make the Olympic Trials qualifier, 2:22:00. There were ups and downs for the
> first few months, but by mid-July I really thought I was on course to make my goal.

First off, 7.5 is a HUGE jump even with a year of training. I think a two or three year goal would
be more reasonable.

> Then, for a variety of reason, problems arose. Work, personal life, and 9 straight weeks over
> 97 (high of 122) seem to have led to a moderate case of over-training. Now I can't do the
> workouts I could a month ago, and even easy runs make my legs dead.

I would take a very close look at your logs and see when you noticed your legs turning to mush. Did
you increase both your total miles and intensity in this span. Do you think 9 weeks of 97 to 122 is
reasonable? The fact that you're melting and not breaking suggests your just over the line but who
knows how far.

> So now it's a mental game. How do I convince myself that I can go out and run near that 2:22
> like I should be able to after a taper, even if my whole last month of workouts are far from
> that quality? Should I even try it or bag it and adjust my goal to a slower time?

I will assume you coach yourself or I don't think you would be in this predicament. If you don't
throw in some serious rest like hide your running shoes for a week you ain't got a chance in hell.
You can't will a 2:22. You should be nearing taper mode and slicing your mileage big time so rest is
least likely to hurt at this stage.

> The worst part of marathoning is that if you blow one race, you can't go back and run another
> next week or even next month. While the training may help you for years down the road, a lot of
> that effort is simply blown.

A sad truth.

> Somehow I have to get back there in the next few weeks, since I can't say I believe in it
> right now.

The race is Oct. 12 and you have about 4 weeks. Depending on how far over the line you are, you may
have time to react.

The question for you, what do YOU plan to do physically to get back on track?

--
Doug Freese dfreeseNOBS@hvc.rr.com

[Josep Duran]

<ahass@dontspamumich.edu> escribió en el mensaje news:4yu9b.2674$H91.59081@news.itd.umich.edu...
>
> So now it's a mental game. How do I convince myself that I can go out and run near that 2:22
> like I should be able to after a taper, even if my whole last month of workouts are far from
> that quality? Should I even try it or bag it and adjust my goal to a slower time?

I (and many others) am convinced you have the 2.22 in your legs even with a longer than
planned taper.

I hope you get the perfect conditions on race day.

Josep Duran

[Sats]

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 02:27:12 GMT, ahass@dontspamumich.edu wrote:

>
> You probably thought this had to do with the common reaction we marathoners get from people when
> we tell them we voluntarily run 26.2 mile races and call 22 miles a training run... "What are
> you, MENTAL???" No, actually this is just about how the way you think can affect you going into
> a marathon. I believe a huge part of the marathon is mental. If you don't think you can do it,
> guess what...you won't.

Copying me? I've said this a dozen times, if you have doubts you will probably not finish. Show up
prepared physically and mentally. I have medical issues that could make me DO on any given day (1 in
30) but I still never had any doubts I'd finish.

[Miss Anne Throp]

Of all the words in the English language, "mental" is the last one you should use when referring
to joggers.

[Sats]

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:35:09 -0400 (EDT), High_Colonic@webtv.net (Miss Anne Thrope) wrote:

>Of all the words in the English language, "mental" is the last one you should use when referring
>to joggers.

Surely appropriate when reffering to a hemoroid like you though...

[ahass]

Doug Freese <dfreese@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
> ahass@dontspamumich.edu wrote:
>>
>> I believe a huge part of the marathon is mental.

> It's a piece of the puzzle but in my opinion not huge especially when distance AND speed is
> involved.

>> If you don't think you can do it, guess what...you won't.

> True but you can't just will it either. The right training, a great taper AND feeling stromg will
> give you that mental edge.

>> For the past year I have been busting myself week in and week out trying to take another 7.5
>> minutes off to make the Olympic Trials qualifier, 2:22:00. There were ups and downs for the
>> first few months, but by mid-July I really thought I was on course to make my goal.

> First off, 7.5 is a HUGE jump even with a year of training. I think a two or three year goal would
> be more reasonable.

---Yes, that's very true. However the Trials are next year, so I am on a tight deadline that made me
do things in a way that I knew going in was less than ideal.

>> Then, for a variety of reason, problems arose. Work, personal life, and 9 straight weeks over
>> 97 (high of 122) seem to have led to a moderate case of over-training. Now I can't do the
>> workouts I could a month ago, and even easy runs make my legs dead.

> I would take a very close look at your logs and see when you noticed your legs turning to mush.
> Did you increase both your total miles and intensity in this span. Do you think 9 weeks of 97 to
> 122 is reasonable? The fact that you're melting and not breaking suggests your just over the line
> but who knows how far.

---I was careful not to increase things together, the problem was it was more subtle than that. All
I came up with was I did my first 22-miler and felt great, finishing fast and strong. Then a couple
days later I had the first of my problems and bombed my next long run a week later. My thought is
that while I felt good during that 22-miler, it pushed me over the line and by the time I tried to
recover mid-week it was already too late to do anything about it. In retrospect, I did too many
20-22 milers too close together and should have taken a week off in there. However like I said, it
felt good at the time so how to know?

>> So now it's a mental game. How do I convince myself that I can go out and run near that 2:22
>> like I should be able to after a taper, even if my whole last month of workouts are far from
>> that quality? Should I even try it or bag it and adjust my goal to a slower time?

> I will assume you coach yourself or I don't think you would be in this predicament. If you don't
> throw in some serious rest like hide your running shoes for a week you ain't got a chance in hell.
> You can't will a 2:22. You should be nearing taper mode and slicing your mileage big time so rest
> is least likely to hurt at this stage.

--Actually I have a former Olympian as a coach. The catch here is if I did a month-long taper I'd
almost certainly recover enough, but I'd also lose a lot and stand no chance of 2:22. The
alternative is try to hit some good workouts yet do everything else very easy to try and recover,
and still stand a chance at 2:22. Higher risk, yet higher chance of qualifying.

>> The worst part of marathoning is that if you blow one race, you can't go back and run another
>> next week or even next month. While the training may help you for years down the road, a lot
>> of that effort is simply blown.

> A sad truth.

>> Somehow I have to get back there in the next few weeks, since I can't say I believe in it
>> right now.

> The race is Oct. 12 and you have about 4 weeks. Depending on how far over the line you are, you
> may have time to react.

> The question for you, what do YOU plan to do physically to get back on track?

---Right now the game plan is VERY easy days combined with a few key workouts that remain. We'll see
how it goes... Andy Hass

[Jonathan Sydenh]

<ahass@dontspamumich.edu> wrote in message news:hEE9b.2684$H91.59174@news.itd.umich.edu...
> Doug Freese <dfreese@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
> > ahass@dontspamumich.edu wrote:
> >>
> >> I believe a huge part of the marathon is mental.
>
> > It's a piece of the puzzle but in my opinion not huge especially when distance AND speed is
> > involved.
>
> >> If you don't think you can do it, guess what...you won't.
>
> > True but you can't just will it either. The right training, a great taper AND feeling stromg
> > will give you that mental edge.
>
>
> >> For the past year I have been busting myself week in and week out
trying
> >> to take another 7.5 minutes off to make the Olympic Trials qualifier,
2:22:00.
> >> There were ups and downs for the first few months, but by mid-July I really thought I was on
> >> course to make my goal.
>
> > First off, 7.5 is a HUGE jump even with a year of training. I think a two or three year goal
> > would be more reasonable.
>
> ---Yes, that's very true. However the Trials are next year, so I am on a tight deadline that made
> me do things in a way that I knew going in was less than ideal.
>
> >> Then, for a variety of reason, problems arose. Work, personal life,
and
> >> 9 straight weeks over 97 (high of 122) seem to have led to a moderate case of over-training.
> >> Now I can't do the workouts I could a month
ago,
> >> and even easy runs make my legs dead.
>
> > I would take a very close look at your logs and see when you noticed your legs turning to mush.
> > Did you increase both your total miles and intensity in this span. Do you think 9 weeks of 97 to
> > 122 is reasonable? The fact that you're melting and not breaking suggests your just over the
> > line but who knows how far.
>
> ---I was careful not to increase things together, the problem was it was more subtle than that.
> All I came up with was I did my first 22-miler and felt great, finishing fast and strong. Then a
> couple days later I had the first of my problems and bombed my next long run a week later. My
> thought is that while I felt good during that 22-miler, it pushed me over the line and by the time
> I tried to recover mid-week it was already too late to do anything about it. In retrospect, I did
> too many 20-22 milers too close together and should have taken a week off in there. However like I
> said, it felt good at the time so how to know?
>
> >> So now it's a mental game. How do I convince myself that I can go
out
> >> and run near that 2:22 like I should be able to after a taper, even if my whole last month of
> >> workouts are far from that quality? Should I
even
> >> try it or bag it and adjust my goal to a slower time?
>
>
> > I will assume you coach yourself or I don't think you would be in this predicament. If you don't
> > throw in some serious rest like hide your running shoes for a week you ain't got a chance in
> > hell. You can't will a 2:22. You should be nearing taper mode and slicing your mileage big time
> > so rest is least likely to hurt at this stage.
>
> --Actually I have a former Olympian as a coach. The catch here is if I did a month-long taper I'd
> almost certainly recover enough, but I'd also lose a lot and stand no chance of 2:22. The
> alternative is try to hit some good workouts yet do everything else very easy to try and recover,
and
> still stand a chance at 2:22. Higher risk, yet higher chance of
qualifying.
>
> >> The worst part of marathoning is that if you blow one race, you
can't go
> >> back and run another next week or even next month. While the training
may
> >> help you for years down the road, a lot of that effort is simply blown.
>
> > A sad truth.
>
>
>
> >> Somehow I have to get back there in the next few weeks, since I can't say I believe in it
> >> right now.
>
> > The race is Oct. 12 and you have about 4 weeks. Depending on how far over the line you are, you
> > may have time to react.
>
> > The question for you, what do YOU plan to do physically to get back on track?
>
> ---Right now the game plan is VERY easy days combined with a few key
workouts
> that remain. We'll see how it goes... Andy Hass

Hmm ... you have my sympathy. What if you tapered drstically in terns of distance but kept up the
speed work? Or simply took a week off, just doing three or four very short runs to keep the system
ticking over, before resuming your scheduled taper? J

[Globaldisc]

True but you can't just will it either. The right training, a great taper AND feeling stromg will
give you that mental edge.
__________

No way Doug. The sum total of what you've pointed out is no guarantee peaking mentally as well,
hardly....in fact great training/taper/feeling strong does not mean you'll avoid "The Wall".
Avoiding The Wall is more often mental...(for us non-Kenyan folk)...I think you're depreciating the
mental side of Marathoning far too much. You phrase it like an equation that's realized if you do A,
B and C and that will all equal = Mental edge.

From an Article..that's a good read... . http://www.marathonandbeyond.com/choices/latta.htm

Scant scientific research examines the relationship between mental strategies and hitting The Wall
per se, although a body of research dating back to the 1970s documents the relationship between a
runner’s thought processes and performance. Faster race times are generally associated with what
have come to be known as associative strategies—thinking about physical sensations, such as
breathing, muscle soreness, or blisters, and other race-related issues such as pacing and
competitive strategy. During competition, elite runners tend to use associative thinking strategies
almost exclusively.

Athletes who achieve their peak performance usually experience something that has come to be known
as “flow,� a concept introduced to the world in the 1970s by psychologist Mihaly
Csikszentmihalyi. Flow is “a state of consciousness where one becomes totally absorbed in what one
is doing, to the exclusion of all other thoughts and emotions,� according to Susan A. Jackson and
Csikszentmihalyi, authors of Flow in Sports (Human Kinetics, 1999). “So flow is about focus.� In
other words, when you experience that running nirvana during which everything seems effortless, you
are probably thinking associatively.

[Sats]

Good job trimming those quotes buttmunch.

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:00:24 +0200, "Jonathan Sydenham" <sydenham@mail.dk> wrote:

>
><ahass@dontspamumich.edu> wrote in message news:hEE9b.2684$H91.59174@news.itd.umich.edu...
>> Doug Freese <dfreese@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
>> > ahass@dontspamumich.edu wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I believe a huge part of the marathon is mental.
>>
>> > It's a piece of the puzzle but in my opinion not huge especially when distance AND speed is
>> > involved.
>>
>> >> If you don't think you can do it, guess what...you won't.
>>
>> > True but you can't just will it either. The right training, a great taper AND feeling stromg
>> > will give you that mental edge.
>>
>>
>> >> For the past year I have been busting myself week in and week out
>trying
>> >> to take another 7.5 minutes off to make the Olympic Trials qualifier,
>2:22:00.
>> >> There were ups and downs for the first few months, but by mid-July I really thought I was on
>> >> course to make my goal.
>>
>> > First off, 7.5 is a HUGE jump even with a year of training. I think a two or three year goal
>> > would be more reasonable.
>>
>> ---Yes, that's very true. However the Trials are next year, so I am on a tight deadline that made
>> me do things in a way that I knew going in was less than ideal.
>>
>> >> Then, for a variety of reason, problems arose. Work, personal life,
>and
>> >> 9 straight weeks over 97 (high of 122) seem to have led to a moderate case of over-training.
>> >> Now I can't do the workouts I could a month
>ago,
>> >> and even easy runs make my legs dead.
>>
>> > I would take a very close look at your logs and see when you noticed your legs turning to mush.
>> > Did you increase both your total miles and intensity in this span. Do you think 9 weeks of 97
>> > to 122 is reasonable? The fact that you're melting and not breaking suggests your just over the
>> > line but who knows how far.
>>
>> ---I was careful not to increase things together, the problem was it was more subtle than that.
>> All I came up with was I did my first 22-miler and felt great, finishing fast and strong. Then a
>> couple days later I had the first of my problems and bombed my next long run a week later. My
>> thought is that while I felt good during that 22-miler, it pushed me over the line and by the
>> time I tried to recover mid-week it was already too late to do anything about it. In retrospect,
>> I did too many 20-22 milers too close together and should have taken a week off in there. However
>> like I said, it felt good at the time so how to know?
>>
>> >> So now it's a mental game. How do I convince myself that I can go
>out
>> >> and run near that 2:22 like I should be able to after a taper, even if my whole last month of
>> >> workouts are far from that quality? Should I
>even
>> >> try it or bag it and adjust my goal to a slower time?
>>
>>
>> > I will assume you coach yourself or I don't think you would be in this predicament. If you
>> > don't throw in some serious rest like hide your running shoes for a week you ain't got a chance
>> > in hell. You can't will a 2:22. You should be nearing taper mode and slicing your mileage big
>> > time so rest is least likely to hurt at this stage.
>>
>> --Actually I have a former Olympian as a coach. The catch here is if I did a month-long taper I'd
>> almost certainly recover enough, but I'd also lose a lot and stand no chance of 2:22. The
>> alternative is try to hit some good workouts yet do everything else very easy to try and recover,
>and
>> still stand a chance at 2:22. Higher risk, yet higher chance of
>qualifying.
>>
>> >> The worst part of marathoning is that if you blow one race, you
>can't go
>> >> back and run another next week or even next month. While the training
>may
>> >> help you for years down the road, a lot of that effort is simply blown.
>>
>> > A sad truth.
>>
>>
>>
>> >> Somehow I have to get back there in the next few weeks, since I can't say I believe in it
>> >> right now.
>>
>> > The race is Oct. 12 and you have about 4 weeks. Depending on how far over the line you are, you
>> > may have time to react.
>>
>> > The question for you, what do YOU plan to do physically to get back on track?
>>
>> ---Right now the game plan is VERY easy days combined with a few key
>workouts
>> that remain. We'll see how it goes... Andy Hass
>
>Hmm ... you have my sympathy. What if you tapered drstically in terns of distance but kept up the
>speed work? Or simply took a week off, just doing three or four very short runs to keep the system
>ticking over, before resuming your scheduled taper? J

[ahass]

Jonathan Sydenham <sydenham@mail.dk> wrote:
> Hmm ... you have my sympathy. What if you tapered drstically in terns of distance but kept up the
> speed work? Or simply took a week off, just doing three or four very short runs to keep the system
> ticking over, before resuming your scheduled taper? J

That's exactly what I'm doing. Well, not DRASTICALLY cutting miles, but I have been running far
less than planned for 3 weeks already and have cut back the mileage for the remainder as well.
However I'm still trying to hit the key hard workouts to keep the edge. I'm leery of the week
off, as I think it wouldn't mesh well with the remaining taper. If I had caught this right away
the week off would have been the way to go though. I usually taper by keeping intensity up until
the last week, this time I'll probably cut it back a little more. Today's 2X3mile intervals
actually went decently though, so I might keep it in there. I'm taking it workout by workout
now. Andy Hass

[Jonathan Sydenh]

good luck - it was good to hear about the 2x3 session. j <ahass@dontspamumich.edu> wrote in message
news:xJP9b.2701$H91.59758@news.itd.umich.edu...
> Jonathan Sydenham <sydenham@mail.dk> wrote:
> > Hmm ... you have my sympathy. What if you tapered drstically in terns of distance but kept
> > up the
speed
> > work? Or simply took a week off, just doing three or four very short
runs to
> > keep the system ticking over, before resuming your scheduled taper? J
>
> That's exactly what I'm doing. Well, not DRASTICALLY cutting miles,
but
> I have been running far less than planned for 3 weeks already and have cut back the mileage for
> the remainder as well. However I'm still trying to
hit
> the key hard workouts to keep the edge. I'm leery of the week off, as I
think
> it wouldn't mesh well with the remaining taper. If I had caught this
right
> away the week off would have been the way to go though. I usually taper by keeping intensity up
> until the last week, this time I'll probably cut it back a little more. Today's 2X3mile intervals
actually
> went decently though, so I might keep it in there. I'm taking it workout
by
> workout now. Andy Hass

[Steve Common]

ahass@dontspamumich.edu wrote:

> I believe a huge part of the marathon is mental. If you don't think you can do it, guess
> what...you won't.

I've a running partner who's my age and is as fast, or slightly faster than me on all distances from
track to XC, to 10k and 21.1k, but he regularly failed in his sub-3s over a period of several years.
He finally managed 2h59 in Venice (which isn't the easiest) last year.

He thinks it's essential to go out at 4'15/km, no more, no less, otherwise crash and burn will
ensue. He was horrified that I insisted on going out at the pace I'd calculated from training as
being my optimal pace.

Of course he manages 4'15/km, more or less all the way => 3h if there's no pee stop or hills or
whatever anywhere. But there always is at least one of those things. It's purely the mental approach
he's using which is causing this, but he won't have it.

[Steve Common]

Oops! I replied a little too quickly.

If you can't do the workouts, no amount of mental effort is going to have long-term payoffs. You may
make the qualifying times but it sounds like that would burn you out and you'd have nothing left for
the Games themselves...

I've not been following the group over the past few weeks, so don't know where you are in your
training cycle, what your recent reference times are at 10k and 21k or what your vVO2max is.

For a 2h22 I expect you want to be doing around 1h08 for 21k and less than 31' for 10k, even with
normal training fatigue factored in?

Supposing this is just a passing phase, how has your body weight evolved over the year, if at all?
If you weigh 66 kilos, 660 grams more or less is 1% => 1'30" on or off your 2h30.

I expect you're pretty near racing weight most of the time and that there's nothing much to be
gained, but at your level, and when you're looking for a 7 minute (neigh-on 3%) improvement in one
year, every little bit counts.

[Steve Common]

ahass@dontspamumich.edu wrote:

>---Yes, that's very true. However the Trials are next year, so I am on a tight deadline that made
>me do things in a way that I knew going in was less than ideal.

When next year?

>--Actually I have a former Olympian as a coach. The catch here is if I did a month-long taper I'd
>almost certainly recover enough, but I'd also lose a lot and stand no chance of 2:22.

I know we're nowhere near the same league and maybe things don't work the same at your level, but
couldn't you just keep the vVO2max topped up to peak (or even improve it slightly) by a couple of
sessions with 15x30"/30"s = 200m/100m (am I way off on your pacing?) whilst cutting all the long,
hard stuff out, just doing recovery-pace runs and no long reps, threshold work or race pace?

[Rm]

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:45:31 +0200, steve common <steven.common@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

>If you can't do the workouts, no amount of mental effort is going to have long-term payoffs.

This is true. No amount of just mental prep will do without the physical training, and if you've
done it right you should already be mentally prepared.

[ahass]

steve common <steven.common@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> ahass@dontspamumich.edu wrote:

>>---Yes, that's very true. However the Trials are next year, so I am on a tight deadline that made
>>me do things in a way that I knew going in was less than ideal.

> When next year?

---Mid-February.

Andy Hass

[ahass]

steve common <steven.common@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> Oops! I replied a little too quickly.

> If you can't do the workouts, no amount of mental effort is going to have long-term payoffs. You
> may make the qualifying times but it sounds like that would burn you out and you'd have nothing
> left for the Games themselves...

> I've not been following the group over the past few weeks, so don't know where you are in your
> training cycle, what your recent reference times are at 10k and 21k or what your vVO2max is. For a
> 2h22 I expect you want to be doing around 1h08 for 21k and less than 31' for 10k, even with normal
> training fatigue factored in?

---No idea of vVO2max. I have a half marathon PR of 1:10:12 from this spring, but could still run
1:10:58 a few weeks ago in the middle of my over-training bout and bonking in 3 miles. I was capable
of a 31:40 10k just before that half marathon PR. THe caveat is I am a deviation from the formulas
which you use to arrive at those times. I hold my speed better than most people as distance
increases. I was capable of no faster than 1:12+ (had 1:13:20 PR) when I ran 2:29:27, and ran a
33:15 10k 3 weeks before that marathon. I figured if I could run 1:09 at the race I bonked and ran
1:10:58 I was ready. So since I overtrained I lost my chance at a good reference race.

> Supposing this is just a passing phase, how has your body weight evolved over the year, if at all?
> If you weigh 66 kilos, 660 grams more or less is 1% => 1'30" on or off your 2h30.

---The problem with body weight is that it is dangerous to adjust it this close to a race, as I
might end up getting too tired or too light and ruining myself. I currently weight 146-148 at about
5% BF, I hoped to race at 145 and still do. I don't have a lot of fat to spare as I've burned out
every time I dip below 145 (I'm 5'10").

> I expect you're pretty near racing weight most of the time and that there's nothing much to be
> gained, but at your level, and when you're looking for a 7 minute (neigh-on 3%) improvement in one
> year, every little bit counts.

---Just hammering my few remaining workouts, shortening my taper a bit, and hoping for the best
;) Andy Hass

[ahass]

steve common <steven.common@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> ahass@dontspamumich.edu wrote:

>>---Yes, that's very true. However the Trials are next year, so I am on a tight deadline that made
>>me do things in a way that I knew going in was less than ideal.

> When next year?

>>--Actually I have a former Olympian as a coach. The catch here is if I did a month-long taper I'd
>>almost certainly recover enough, but I'd also lose a lot and stand no chance of 2:22.

> I know we're nowhere near the same league and maybe things don't work the same at your level, but
> couldn't you just keep the vVO2max topped up to peak (or even improve it slightly) by a couple of
> sessions with 15x30"/30"s = 200m/100m (am I way off on your pacing?) whilst cutting all the long,
> hard stuff out, just doing recovery-pace runs and no long reps, threshold work or race pace?

----Problem is that vVO2max isn't all that important in the marathon. The only time I would approach
that level of intensity is the last half mile. Aerobic threshhold is best developed/kept (IMHO) by
tempo runs at/just below this level of intensity...ie marathon pace to half marathon pace. Other
things important for the marathon, such as stamina at race speed and fat metabolism, require longer
intense efforts. If I were to have cut all the fat off my weeks and kept the shortest hard efforts
only, I would, in effect, have put myself into a very extended taper and been very flat by race day.
WHat you describe somewhat mirrors what I do for a taper. Since this post, things have turned around
somewhat. My legs are back together again, and I've had a few really decent workouts. I did a 10.3
mile tempo 6 sec/mile faster than I did last year before my 2:29 even though I felt really dead the
first half of it. Only problem is that I no longer have the time to get much real work in as my
taper is starting. I'm stuck at 73-80 mpw for my last 3 "hard" weeks going into the taper. I can
feel that I have declined somewhat from my peak, the only question is how much. I also have no idea
what kind of marathon I will come out of the taper with. I'll probably have to just go by feel at
the start of the marathon, and decide my goal time on the fly. Andy Hass

[Scott Williams]

ahass@dontspamumich.edu wrote:

>
> ---Just hammering my few remaining workouts, shortening my taper a bit, and hoping for the best ;)
> Andy Hass

Go get 'em, Andy.

Could that have been you I saw heading up Main, 8 am-ish in the morning a couple weeks ago? I was
driving my son to school and noticed someone looking a bit like you heading out HRD-way.

Scott