Swollen lumps on both shins

Hello,

I'm a 26-year-old male and recently started running and have developed a pretty bad case of what I
believe are shin splints. I just bought a new quality pair of New Balance running sneakers after
thinking this was being caused by another pair of Nikes that I used to run in.

Now, not only do my shins just hurt and feel bruised, but I'm beginning to get a large swollen lump
on the fronts of each shin, which are painful to the touch. As if I was kicked there several times.
The lumps are right in the center of my shins and are similar to a large bump you'd get on your head
if you were hit with a bottle or bat.. I can feel the lumps sticking out if I run my hand on them
and you can literally see them sticking out of my leg.

Does this sound like a fracture or anything serious enough to visit a doctor for? My girlfriend, who
I run with, tells me that I should take a full week off from running to let the swelling go down and
give it a shot again in another week. I run for 30 minutes about 5 days/week, however today I could
only last 18 minutes. The pain was too much and is getting worse each week it seems.

I'm 6'4" 220 lbs. I run about 15 minutes on pavement and another 15 minutes on a dirt trail and
always stretch before and after each run.

As a teenager that ran all the time and into college, I never experienced this until I started
running again recently and I'm assuming it's because of a combination of two or more of the
following things:

1-My height and weight (I'm currently 6'4" 220 lbs whereas when I used to run at 19 and 20 years old
I was 6'4" 160-170 lbs) 2-the concrete/pavement 3-my sneakers 4-I fractured something in both my
shins or a health condition

I'd appreciate any advice. Should I completely stop running for a week, let the swelling go down
completely and give it another shot in a week? See a doctor? Should I change my style of running?
(ie. more on the fronts of my feet or more on the heels of my feet).

The aching and bruising feeling was one thing for the last several weeks since I started, but now
that I'm getting these lumps and feeling more pain than ever, I'm much more concerned and have never
heard of lumps in the shins like this.

Thanks a lot!

-JR

tackleme

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 05:39:11 GMT, "JR" <none@nospam.com> wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I'm a 26-year-old male and recently started running and have developed a pretty bad case of what I
>believe are shin splints. I just bought a new quality pair of New Balance running sneakers after
>thinking this was being caused by another pair of Nikes that I used to run in.
>
>Now, not only do my shins just hurt and feel bruised, but I'm beginning to get a large swollen lump
>on the fronts of each shin, which are painful to the touch. As if I was kicked there several times.
>The lumps are right in the center of my shins and are similar to a large bump you'd get on your
>head if you were hit with a bottle or bat.. I can feel the lumps sticking out if I run my hand on
>them and you can literally see them sticking out of my leg.
>
>Does this sound like a fracture or anything serious enough to visit a doctor for? My girlfriend,
>who I run with, tells me that I should take a full week off from running to let the swelling go
>down and give it a shot again in another week. I run for 30 minutes about 5 days/week, however
>today I could only last 18 minutes. The pain was too much and is getting worse each week it seems.

I started running in the military, and almost all the recruits invariably suffer shin and knee pain.
Unfortunately, I have not seen anybody with shin splint symptoms like yours.

After the first few weeks of running, I noticed that the shin muscles started to become larger and
there was a convex bulge from below the knee to above the ankles. But yours sounds like a bump
rather than a bulge, which may or may not be muscle growth.

According to the drill sergeants, shin splints are the tightening of the front tendons/ligaments
because your calve muscles are working more and becoming taught, thus pulling against the
muscles/tendons in the front. Stretching the calves is suppose to be the best home remedy.

We all have to live with shin splints for a while, and it took me about 2 years to really not notice
any pain there. It will take time and continual training, but overtraining could easily injure you
(even permanently).

Da Man

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 05:39:11 GMT, "JR" <none@nospam.com> wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I'm a 26-year-old male and recently started running and have developed a pretty bad case of what I
>believe are shin splints.

And what prey tell makes you think this?

> I just bought a new quality pair of New Balance running sneakers after thinking this was being
> caused by another pair of Nikes that I used to run in.

You were correct in that thinking.

>
>Now, not only do my shins just hurt and feel bruised, but I'm beginning to get a large swollen lump
>on the fronts of each shin, which are painful to the touch. As if I was kicked there several times.
>The lumps are right in the center of my shins and are similar to a large bump you'd get on your
>head if you were hit with a bottle or bat.. I can feel the lumps sticking out if I run my hand on
>them and you can literally see them sticking out of my leg.
>
>Does this sound like a fracture or anything serious enough to visit a doctor for? My girlfriend,
>who I run with, tells me that I should take a full week off from running to let the swelling go
>down and give it a shot again in another week. I run for 30 minutes about 5 days/week, however
>today I could only last 18 minutes. The pain was too much and is getting worse each week it seems.

Listen to your GF.

>
>I'm 6'4" 220 lbs. I run about 15 minutes on pavement and another 15 minutes on a dirt trail and
>always stretch before and after each run.

Change that to all off-road running, your legs will thank you.

>
>As a teenager that ran all the time and into college, I never experienced this until I started
>running again recently and I'm assuming it's because of a combination of two or more of the
>following things:
>
>1-My height and weight (I'm currently 6'4" 220 lbs whereas when I used to run at 19 and 20 years
>old I was 6'4" 160-170 lbs) 2-the concrete/pavement 3-my sneakers 4-I fractured something in both
>my shins or a health condition
>

3 is correct.

>I'd appreciate any advice. Should I completely stop running for a week,

Yes.

let
>the swelling go down completely and give it another shot in a week? See a doctor?

If a week off doesn't help, then see one.

>hould I change my style of running? (ie. more on the fronts of my feet or more on the heels of
>my feet).
>

No, but you'd say if a professional running shop chose those shoes for you, or if you just picked
them out. The wrong shoes for your running style can absolutely cripple you.

Mike R.

> Now, not only do my shins just hurt and feel bruised, but I'm beginning to get a large swollen
> lump on the fronts of each shin, which are painful to the touch. As if I was kicked there
> several times.

Here's my theory: You ARE being kicked in the shins. You snore louder than a chainsaw and your
girlfriend, in an effort to shut you up, kicks you in her sleep.

> I'd appreciate any advice. Should I completely stop running for a week,
let
> the swelling go down completely and give it another shot in a week?

Make her sleep on the couch for a week and I'll bet your "shin splints" go away. Alternatively,
sleep with your back to her and you'll likely develop mysterious bruises on your calves.

Mike

Arne Todnem Vik

JR ! Some of the other answers on this thread might be helpful to you, some are just not...

I'd be surprised if your shinswelling are due to typical fractures, but of at least there is a risk
of some bone involvement. A more likely answer would be a big inflammation of ligaments and other
tissue in the area.

No matter what the reason is: Take some time off !! A week might not be enough, you might need
several weeks of little or no running for the swelling and pain to be better. If you are to avoid
even more serious injury, rest is essential. Facing that is the most important thing.

If things are not a lot better in approx 2 weeks of rest, I'd go and see a doctor.

When you do start running again, start out very carefully , perhaps do only a 1-2 mile testrun in
the first week. If that's ok, go up to 30min 3 times a week. Keep that level for a month or so
(painfree!) before you think of adding more days or milage.

Patience is the key, it's a cliche, but it is very true. If you go slow in the beginning, you'll get
where you want to be a lot faster.

Good luck ! Arne

jobin

JR <none@nospam.com> wrote: ...
> Now, not only do my shins just hurt and feel bruised, but I'm beginning to get a large swollen
> lump on the fronts of each shin, which are painful to the touch. As if I was kicked there several
> times. The lumps are right in the center of my shins and are similar to a large bump you'd get on
> your head if you were hit with a bottle or bat.. I can feel the lumps sticking out if I run my
> hand on them and you can literally see them sticking out of my leg.
...

does the pain go away or subside significantly when you stop running?

jobs

Da Man

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:12:44 -0700, tackleme@nospam.com wrote:

>According to the drill sergeants, shin splints are the tightening of the front tendons/ligaments
>because your calve muscles are working more and becoming taught, thus pulling against the
>muscles/tendons in the front. Stretching the calves is suppose to be the best home remedy.
>
First off, drill sargents are notorious idiots, that aside, be sure to stretch AFTER running or
warmups, never stretch cold muscles/

>We all have to live with shin splints for a while,

Nonsense, half the runners I know have never had a shin splint.

>and it took me about 2 years to really not notice any pain there.

Not the most perceptive person out there, are you?

>It will take time and continual training, but overtraining could easily injure you (even
>permanently).

"Mike R." <mrioux@e-architect.siht-evomer.com> wrote in message
news:vmjfqrfbom5ue1@corp.supernews.com...
> > Now, not only do my shins just hurt and feel bruised, but I'm beginning
to
> > get a large swollen lump on the fronts of each shin, which are painful
to
> > the touch. As if I was kicked there several times.
>
> Here's my theory: You ARE being kicked in the shins. You snore louder
than
> a chainsaw and your girlfriend, in an effort to shut you up, kicks you in her sleep.
>
> > I'd appreciate any advice. Should I completely stop running for a week,
> let
> > the swelling go down completely and give it another shot in a week?
>
> Make her sleep on the couch for a week and I'll bet your "shin splints" go away. Alternatively,
> sleep with your back to her and you'll likely
develop
> mysterious bruises on your calves.
>
> Mike
>
>
Schmuck. If I wanted a comedian responding, I wouldn't have posted here. Do yourself a favor and
keep your day job.

<tackleme@nospam.com> wrote in message news:7v7imv0vih56vhi7iaaqdbp5ihapp549ie@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 05:39:11 GMT, "JR" <none@nospam.com> wrote:
> >Hello,
> >
> >I'm a 26-year-old male and recently started running and have developed a pretty bad case of what
> >I believe are shin splints. I just bought a new quality pair of New Balance running sneakers
> >after thinking this was
being
> >caused by another pair of Nikes that I used to run in.
> >
> >Now, not only do my shins just hurt and feel bruised, but I'm beginning
to
> >get a large swollen lump on the fronts of each shin, which are painful to the touch. As if I was
> >kicked there several times. The lumps are right
in
> >the center of my shins and are similar to a large bump you'd get on your head if you were hit
> >with a bottle or bat.. I can feel the lumps
sticking
> >out if I run my hand on them and you can literally see them sticking out
of
> >my leg.
> >
> >Does this sound like a fracture or anything serious enough to visit a
doctor
> >for? My girlfriend, who I run with, tells me that I should take a full
week
> >off from running to let the swelling go down and give it a shot again in another week. I run for
> >30 minutes about 5 days/week, however today I
could
> >only last 18 minutes. The pain was too much and is getting worse each
week
> >it seems.
>
> I started running in the military, and almost all the recruits invariably suffer shin and knee
> pain. Unfortunately, I have not seen anybody with shin splint symptoms like yours.
>
> After the first few weeks of running, I noticed that the shin muscles started to become larger and
> there was a convex bulge from below the knee to above the ankles. But yours sounds like a bump
> rather than a bulge, which may or may not be muscle growth.
>
> According to the drill sergeants, shin splints are the tightening of the front tendons/ligaments
> because your calve muscles are working more and becoming taught, thus pulling against the
> muscles/tendons in the front. Stretching the calves is suppose to be the best home remedy.
>
> We all have to live with shin splints for a while, and it took me about 2 years to really not
> notice any pain there. It will take time and continual training, but overtraining could easily
> injure you (even permanently).
>
>

Thanks for the comments and info. I appreciate your feedback! The lumps have me nervous though =(

"Arne Todnem Vik-Mo" <nospam-a.vikmo@c2i.net> wrote in message
news:Clkab.20123$BD3.3420807@juliett.dax.net...
> JR ! Some of the other answers on this thread might be helpful to you, some are just not...
>
> I'd be surprised if your shinswelling are due to typical fractures, but of at least there is a
> risk of some bone involvement. A more likely answer would be a big inflammation of ligaments and
> other tissue in the area.
>
> No matter what the reason is: Take some time off !! A week might not be enough, you might need
> several weeks of little or no running for the swelling and pain to be better. If you are to avoid
> even more serious injury, rest is essential. Facing that is the most important thing.
>
> If things are not a lot better in approx 2 weeks of rest, I'd go and see a doctor.
>
> When you do start running again, start out very carefully , perhaps do
only
> a 1-2 mile testrun in the first week. If that's ok, go up to 30min 3 times
a
> week. Keep that level for a month or so (painfree!) before you think of adding more days
> or milage.
>
> Patience is the key, it's a cliche, but it is very true. If you go slow in the beginning, you'll
> get where you want to be a lot faster.
>
> Good luck ! Arne
>
>
>

Thanks very much Arne. I'm going to take at least a full week off, possibly until next weekend or
the following week. I'll then do 15 minute runs per day for a week before I start upping my runs. I
appreciate the feedback!

<jobin@REMOVE-DEEZ-WORDS.cs.ucr.edu> wrote in message news:bkcl8j$rgv$1@glue.ucr.edu...
> JR <none@nospam.com> wrote: ...
> > Now, not only do my shins just hurt and feel bruised, but I'm beginning
to
> > get a large swollen lump on the fronts of each shin, which are painful
to
> > the touch. As if I was kicked there several times. The lumps are right
in
> > the center of my shins and are similar to a large bump you'd get on
your
> > head if you were hit with a bottle or bat.. I can feel the lumps
sticking
> > out if I run my hand on them and you can literally see them sticking out
of
> > my leg.
> ...
>
> does the pain go away or subside significantly when you stop running?
>
> jobs
>

It lessens. I mean the swelling has gone down since I ran last night, but the lumps are still there
-- not as protruding and not the throbbing pain I was feeling from last night but they still have
the lumps and they feel very bruised to the touch.

Bill

> >I'm a 26-year-old male and recently started running and have developed a pretty bad case of what
> >I believe are shin splints. I just bought a new quality pair of New Balance running sneakers
> >after thinking this was
being
> >caused by another pair of Nikes that I used to run in.
> >
> >Now, not only do my shins just hurt and feel bruised, but I'm beginning
to
> >get a large swollen lump on the fronts of each shin, which are painful to the touch. As if I was
> >kicked there several times. The lumps are right
in
> >the center of my shins and are similar to a large bump you'd get on your head if you were hit
> >with a bottle or bat.. I can feel the lumps
sticking
> >out if I run my hand on them and you can literally see them sticking out
of
> >my leg.
> >
> >Does this sound like a fracture or anything serious enough to visit a
doctor
> >for? My girlfriend, who I run with, tells me that I should take a full
week
> >off from running to let the swelling go down and give it a shot again in another week. I run for
> >30 minutes about 5 days/week, however today I
could
> >only last 18 minutes. The pain was too much and is getting worse each
week
> >it seems.
>
> I started running in the military, and almost all the recruits invariably suffer shin and knee
> pain. Unfortunately, I have not seen anybody with shin splint symptoms like yours.
>
> After the first few weeks of running, I noticed that the shin muscles started to become larger and
> there was a convex bulge from below the knee to above the ankles. But yours sounds like a bump
> rather than a bulge, which may or may not be muscle growth.
>
> According to the drill sergeants, shin splints are the tightening of the front tendons/ligaments
> because your calve muscles are working more and becoming taught, thus pulling against the
> muscles/tendons in the front. Stretching the calves is suppose to be the best home remedy.

Do not run through pain! IMHO, you only delay your healing and risk more damage.

I have had no experience with shin bulges.

You can stretch your shins if not in pain. They work hard in eccentric contraction during foot
plant. In particular, they control the ankle dorsiflexion in opposition to the gastrocnemius and
soleus. Rehab involves rest, strengthening the shin (medial tibialis, anterior tibialis ..),
stretching the entire lower leg, and probably massage. Any change in conditions can trigger
soreness, esp. shoe type, terrain, faster running, etc. One simple exercise: walk backwards on
your heels, est. 2 mph for 10-30 steps depending, works well if you catch it early before it
limits your running.

>
> We all have to live with shin splints for a while, and it took me about 2 years to really not
> notice any pain there. It will take time and continual training, but overtraining could easily
> injure you (even permanently).

tackleme

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:17:47 GMT, Da man <DaMan@here.com> wrote:

>First off, drill sargents are notorious idiots, that aside, be sure to stretch AFTER running or
>warmups, never stretch cold muscles/

>Nonsense, half the runners I know have never had a shin splint.

I usually avoid trolls such as yours. But because I pity your own level of ignorance I am going to
respond just this one time.

First of all, the military knows a thing or two about physical fitness, and at least much more than
you do. They literally spend millions researching this stuff, and the results speak for themselves.
Within 3 months, boot camp can transform a video-game generation slob of a kid, who can barely run a
mile, to a 7 minute miler on a 2 or 3 mile event.

Secondly, the reason "half" the runners you know never had a shin splint is because lazy civilians
hardly run as hard as a warrior, which was a topic of my original post. Try running carrying an M-16
over your head for 3 miles, and I'm sure you too will feel enough pain to shut your fat-cake hole
for a while.

jobin

JR <none@nospam.com> wrote:
> It lessens. I mean the swelling has gone down since I ran last night, but the lumps are still
> there -- not as protruding and not the throbbing pain I was feeling from last night but they still
> have the lumps and they feel very bruised to the touch.

not trying to jump to conclusions, but i was thinking if your symptoms are similar to those of
"compartment syndrome." a few i remember:
- pain increases as you keep running until it becomes so bad that you have to stop
- pain goes away soon after you stop running
- touching is very painful

you could do a google search on "compartment syndrome." hopefully, yours is not the case.

in any case, as advised by others, stop running for a week and avoid hard surfaces when your resume.

good luck. jobs

Da Man

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:39:59 GMT, "JR" <none@nospam.com> wrote:

>
>"Mike R." <mrioux@e-architect.siht-evomer.com> wrote in message
>news:vmjfqrfbom5ue1@corp.supernews.com...
>> > Now, not only do my shins just hurt and feel bruised, but I'm beginning
>to
>> > get a large swollen lump on the fronts of each shin, which are painful
>to
>> > the touch. As if I was kicked there several times.
>>
>> Here's my theory: You ARE being kicked in the shins. You snore louder
>than
>> a chainsaw and your girlfriend, in an effort to shut you up, kicks you in her sleep.
>>
>> > I'd appreciate any advice. Should I completely stop running for a week,
>> let
>> > the swelling go down completely and give it another shot in a week?
>>
>> Make her sleep on the couch for a week and I'll bet your "shin splints" go away. Alternatively,
>> sleep with your back to her and you'll likely
>develop
>> mysterious bruises on your calves.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>Schmuck. If I wanted a comedian responding, I wouldn't have posted here. Do yourself a favor and
>keep your day job.
>

It was pathetically lame.

Da Man

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:48:50 -0400, "Bill" <utthitaxpam@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> >I'm a 26-year-old male and recently started running and have developed a pretty bad case of what
>> >I believe are shin splints. I just bought a new quality pair of New Balance running sneakers
>> >after thinking this was
>being
>> >caused by another pair of Nikes that I used to run in.
>> >
>> >Now, not only do my shins just hurt and feel bruised, but I'm beginning
>to
>> >get a large swollen lump on the fronts of each shin, which are painful to the touch. As if I was
>> >kicked there several times. The lumps are right
>in
>> >the center of my shins and are similar to a large bump you'd get on your head if you were hit
>> >with a bottle or bat.. I can feel the lumps
>sticking
>> >out if I run my hand on them and you can literally see them sticking out
>of
>> >my leg.
>> >
>> >Does this sound like a fracture or anything serious enough to visit a
>doctor
>> >for? My girlfriend, who I run with, tells me that I should take a full
>week
>> >off from running to let the swelling go down and give it a shot again in another week. I run for
>> >30 minutes about 5 days/week, however today I
>could
>> >only last 18 minutes. The pain was too much and is getting worse each
>week
>> >it seems.
>>
>> I started running in the military, and almost all the recruits invariably suffer shin and knee
>> pain. Unfortunately, I have not seen anybody with shin splint symptoms like yours.
>>
>> After the first few weeks of running, I noticed that the shin muscles started to become larger
>> and there was a convex bulge from below the knee to above the ankles. But yours sounds like a
>> bump rather than a bulge, which may or may not be muscle growth.
>>
>> According to the drill sergeants, shin splints are the tightening of the front tendons/ligaments
>> because your calve muscles are working more and becoming taught, thus pulling against the
>> muscles/tendons in the front. Stretching the calves is suppose to be the best home remedy.
>
>Do not run through pain! IMHO, you only delay your healing and risk more damage.
>
>I have had no experience with shin bulges.
>
>You can stretch your shins if not in pain. They work hard in eccentric contraction during foot
>plant. In particular, they control the ankle dorsiflexion in opposition to the gastrocnemius and
>soleus. Rehab involves rest, strengthening the shin (medial tibialis, anterior tibialis ..),
>stretching the entire lower leg, and probably massage. Any change in conditions can trigger
>soreness, esp. shoe type, terrain, faster running, etc. One simple exercise: walk backwards on
>your heels, est. 2 mph for 10-30 steps depending, works well if you catch it early before it
>limits your running.
>
>
>>
>> We all have to live with shin splints for a while, and it took me about 2 years to really not
>> notice any pain there. It will take time and continual training, but overtraining could easily
>> injure you (even permanently).
>>
>>
>

Nice quote trim...

Da Man

MJuric

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 05:39:49 -0700, tackleme@nospam.com wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:17:47 GMT, Da man <DaMan@here.com> wrote:
>
>>First off, drill sargents are notorious idiots, that aside, be sure to stretch AFTER running or
>>warmups, never stretch cold muscles/
>
>>Nonsense, half the runners I know have never had a shin splint.
>
>I usually avoid trolls such as yours. But because I pity your own level of ignorance I am going to
>respond just this one time.
>
>First of all, the military knows a thing or two about physical fitness, and at least much more than
>you do. They literally spend millions researching this stuff, and the results speak for themselves.
>Within 3 months, boot camp can transform a video-game generation slob of a kid, who can barely run
>a mile, to a 7 minute miler on a 2 or 3 mile event.
>
>Secondly, the reason "half" the runners you know never had a shin splint is because lazy civilians
>hardly run as hard as a warrior, which was a topic of my original post. Try running carrying an
>M-16 over your head for 3 miles, and I'm sure you too will feel enough pain to shut your fat-cake
>hole for a while.
>

I have a tendancy of disagreeing with you here. The military, as far as what I've heard, not
experianced, knows pitifully little about training for fitness. However I do not fault the
military for this as there goal is not to train for fitness but to train to endure and in
many cases train to endure pain. Proper fitness training does not on a normal basis include
pain. If you are enduring pain, other than that associated with a tough workout not physical
injury such as shin splints, you are doing something wrong, period. Shin splints should not
be considered normal or acceptable and as the repondant to your post mentioned is a fairly
uncommomn injury compared to others. ITB, Runners knee, PF etc.

~Matt

MJuric

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:31:06 +0000 (UTC), jobin@REMOVE-DEEZ-WORDS.cs.ucr.edu wrote:

>JR <none@nospam.com> wrote:
>> It lessens. I mean the swelling has gone down since I ran last night, but the lumps are still
>> there -- not as protruding and not the throbbing pain I was feeling from last night but they
>> still have the lumps and they feel very bruised to the touch.
>
>not trying to jump to conclusions, but i was thinking if your symptoms are similar to those of
>"compartment syndrome." a few i remember:
>- pain increases as you keep running until it becomes so bad that you have to stop
>- pain goes away soon after you stop running
>- touching is very painful
>
>you could do a google search on "compartment syndrome." hopefully, yours is not the case.
>
>in any case, as advised by others, stop running for a week and avoid hard surfaces when
>your resume.
>
>good luck. jobs
>

I believe "compartment Syndrome" is fairly rare. Also I could be wrong but I've never heard
of it creating a "bulge" either.

~Matt

Da Man

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:31:11 GMT, MJuric wrote:

>
> I have a tendancy of disagreeing with you here. The military, as far as what I've heard, not
> experianced, knows pitifully little about training for fitness. However I do not fault the
> military for this as there goal is not to train for fitness but to train to endure and in
> many cases train to endure pain. Proper fitness training does not on a normal basis include
> pain. If you are enduring pain, other than that associated with a tough workout not physical
> injury such as shin splints, you are doing something wrong, period. Shin splints should not
> be considered normal or acceptable and as the repondant to your post mentioned is a fairly
> uncommomn injury compared to others. ITB, Runners knee, PF etc.
>
>~Matt

Oh but Matt, he's a REAL he-man tough guy for enduring all that. Anybody who would even HINT the
government knows jak about fitness is obviously not playing with a full deck, the elevator doesn't
stop at all the floors, the... well you got my point.