Bettini tried to bribe Astarloa to lay down?

[Trg]

Enquiring minds want to know-

Mama mia!

http://www.procycling.com/news_main.asp?newsId=4727

[Ewoud Dronkert]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:02:15 +0200, trg wrote:
> Enquiring minds want to know- Mama mia! http://www.procycling.com/news_main.asp?newsId=4727

Yes! http://www.gazzetta.it/primi_piani/ciclismo/2003/pp_1.0.187430887.shtml

I mean, no! http://www.gazzetta.it/primi_piani/ciclismo/2003/pp_1.0.187774687.shtml

[Nick Burns]

trg wrote:
> Enquiring minds want to know-
>
> Mama mia!
>
> http://www.procycling.com/news_main.asp?newsId=4727

So what. He was not expected to win at that point. It is normal for him to look for help at that
stage. Bad form for the new rainbow to snitch like that. He may find himself in the same
position some day and then he will know. It is not like Bettini tried to bribe him while he was
off the front.

[The Black Adder]

"Ewoud Dronkert" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:6pnlov0lbsm26lf97db9j4i905ueaqeonh@news.xs4all.nl...
> On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:02:15 +0200, trg wrote:
> > Enquiring minds want to know- Mama mia! http://www.procycling.com/news_main.asp?newsId=4727
>
> Yes! http://www.gazzetta.it/primi_piani/ciclismo/2003/pp_1.0.187430887.shtml
>
> I mean, no! http://www.gazzetta.it/primi_piani/ciclismo/2003/pp_1.0.187774687.shtml

"Prima e dopo"

That wouldn't mean exactly what it sounds like in English would it? lol

- BA

[Nick Burns]

The Black Adder wrote:
> "Ewoud Dronkert" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:6pnlov0lbsm26lf97db9j4i905ueaqeonh@news.xs4all.nl...
>> On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:02:15 +0200, trg wrote:
>>> Enquiring minds want to know- Mama mia! http://www.procycling.com/news_main.asp?newsId=4727
>>
>> Yes! http://www.gazzetta.it/primi_piani/ciclismo/2003/pp_1.0.187430887.shtml
>>
>> I mean, no! http://www.gazzetta.it/primi_piani/ciclismo/2003/pp_1.0.187774687.shtml
>
> "Prima e dopo"
>
> That wouldn't mean exactly what it sounds like in English would it? lol
>
> - BA

First and second.

[Kenny]

> Enquiring minds want to know-
>
> Mama mia!
>
> http://www.procycling.com/news_main.asp?newsId=4727

It turns out not to be true. Astarloa has already apologized to Bettini for saying this. But is it
because Bettini really didn't make an offer to Astarloa or does Astarloa apologizes because attempts
to make a deal may not become publically know while he did so?

[DiabloScott]

Originally posted by Kenny
> Enquiring minds want to know-
>
> Mama mia!
>
> http://www.procycling.com/news_main.asp?newsId=4727

It turns out not to be true. Astarloa has already apologized to Bettini for saying this. But is it
because Bettini really didn't make an offer to Astarloa or does Astarloa apologizes because attempts
to make a deal may not become publically know while he did so?

It was just a misunderstanding! Igor thought Paolo was offering "dinero" when he really said "dinner". Now Paolo is getting all litigious and stuff.

[Matabala]

You've got the no.1 ranked rider in the world offering money to another rider to pull him to the top
of the hill so he'll have a better chance in a sprint and all you can say is "so what". You've since
noticed that Astarloa has done an about-face saying he didn't really understand what Bettini was
saying. Talk about damage control. And this from a guy who's lived, trained and ridden in Italy for
a number of years. Not only that, he says he's even vacationed with Bettini. But I guess he still
didn't understand what his buddy Paolo was saying.

What you call snitching I call refreshing honesty from a guy who's just happy to tell the world
how he won an important bike race, without second thoughts about whose reputation he might damage.
If we follow your logic, it's ok to try to "bribe" another rider provided everyone involved knows
the score. In other words, what goes on inside the peleton stops there even if it's as insidious
and anti-competitive as offering a guy money.

"Nick Burns" <chrismcreynolds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3f8ae24f$0$26314
>
> So what. He was not expected to win at that point. It is normal for him to look for help at that
> stage. Bad form for the new rainbow to snitch like that. He may find himself in the same position
> some day and then he will know. It is not like Bettini tried to bribe him while he was off the
front.

[Robert Chung]

matabala wrote:
> If we follow your logic, it's ok to try to "bribe" another rider provided everyone involved knows
> the score. In other words, what goes on inside the peleton stops there even if it's as insidious
> and anti-competitive as offering a guy money.

Buying a win isn't wrong. Selling a win is.

[Nick Burns]

matabala wrote:
> You've got the no.1 ranked rider in the world offering money to another rider to pull him to the
> top of the hill so he'll have a better chance in a sprint and all you can say is "so what". You've
> since noticed that Astarloa has done an about-face saying he didn't really understand what Bettini
> was saying. Talk about damage control. And this from a guy who's lived, trained and ridden in
> Italy for a number of years. Not only that, he says he's even vacationed with Bettini. But I guess
> he still didn't understand what his buddy Paolo was saying.
>
> What you call snitching I call refreshing honesty from a guy who's just happy to tell the world
> how he won an important bike race, without second thoughts about whose reputation he might
> damage. If we follow your logic, it's ok to try to "bribe" another rider provided everyone
> involved knows the score. In other words, what goes on inside the peleton stops there even if
> it's as insidious and anti-competitive as offering a guy money.
>

LOL. Correct. Except offering money is not anti-competitive. They are pros. Get over it. Anyone that
has a chance to win would not accept it. This was a perfect example. In cycling, you have adhoc
coalitions all the time. Now you get all creeped out because Bettini offers to cut him in with cash?
What about in exchange for help at another race? What about in exchange for not getting dropped?
While it is true that offering compensation is against the written rules, it is not against the
unwritten rules and those are the ones that they play by.

[Ewoud Dronkert]

Nick Burns wrote:
> it is true that offering compensation is against the written rules

It is?

[Nick Burns]

Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> Nick Burns wrote:
>> it is true that offering compensation is against the written rules
>
> It is?

I believe so.

[Matabala]

"Nick Burns" <chrismcreynolds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f8c4294$0$26333$a32e20b9@news.nntpservers.com...

I take it you have nothing against the offering of money to throw a race or to lend a wheel to see
to it that someone else wins or, better yet, a competitor loses? Provided, of course, they're pros.
That's sure a strange definition of professionalism. If a guy's offered the right amount, even if
he's got a chance to win, what's to keep him from taking an early payday? Certainly not his sense of
professionalism as we've already established that's nonexistent, they are pros after all. Seems like
Astarloa answered my next question about pros at what.
>
> LOL. Correct. Except offering money is not anti-competitive. They are
pros.
> Get over it. Anyone that has a chance to win would not accept it. This was
a
> perfect example. In cycling, you have adhoc coalitions all the time. Now
you
> get all creeped out because Bettini offers to cut him in with cash? What about in exchange for
> help at another race? What about in exchange for not getting dropped? While it is true that
> offering compensation is against
the
> written rules, it is not against the unwritten rules and those are the
ones
> that they play by.

[Nick Burns]

matabala wrote:
> "Nick Burns" <chrismcreynolds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3f8c4294$0$26333$a32e20b9@news.nntpservers.com...
>
> I take it you have nothing against the offering of money to throw a race or to lend a wheel to see
> to it that someone else wins or, better yet, a competitor loses? Provided, of course, they're
> pros. That's sure a strange definition of professionalism. If a guy's offered the right amount,
> even if he's got a chance to win, what's to keep him from taking an early payday? Certainly not
> his sense of professionalism as we've already established that's nonexistent, they are pros after
> all. Seems like Astarloa answered my next question about pros at what.

God no. Is that what happened? I misunderstood. I thought Bettini tried to build an ad hoc
coalition. By the way, do you know what it means to be professional? It is not synonymous with
sainthood.

Professional: One who earns money in a given or implied occupation

>> LOL. Correct. Except offering money is not anti-competitive. They are pros. Get over it. Anyone
>> that has a chance to win would not accept it. This was a perfect example. In cycling, you have
>> adhoc coalitions all the time. Now you get all creeped out because Bettini offers to cut him in
>> with cash? What about in exchange for help at another race? What about in exchange for not
>> getting dropped? While it is true that offering compensation is against the written rules, it is
>> not against the unwritten rules and those are the ones that they play by.

[Benjo Maso]

"Kenny" <gelei2001@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47493688.0310131658.3ce261b0@posting.google.com...
> > Enquiring minds want to know-
> >
> > Mama mia!
> >
> > http://www.procycling.com/news_main.asp?newsId=4727
>
> It turns out not to be true. Astarloa has already apologized to Bettini for saying this. But is it
> because Bettini really didn't make an offer to Astarloa or does Astarloa apologizes because
> attempts to make a deal may not become publically know while he did so?

Curiously enough, I think Astarloa told the truth (the second time) and Bettini didn't offer him
money. That doesn't mean that A. lied the first time: without any doubt Bettini asked for A's help
and it goes without saying that he would paid Astarloa a lot of money if he had become world
champion. But a pro is usually only offering a fixed sum when he really wants to buy a race (which
wasn't the case because Bettini and van Petegem are better sprinters than A.) or when he doesn't
know the guy (like Moser-Knetemann in 1978). But since Bettini and Asterloa are good friends it's
not very likely that the first version of Asterloa's story was really true.

Benjo Maso

[Kurgan Gringion]

"benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:bmi30o$n88ei$1@ID-75468.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Kenny" <gelei2001@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:47493688.0310131658.3ce261b0@posting.google.com...
> > > Enquiring minds want to know-
> > >
> > > Mama mia!
> > >
> > > http://www.procycling.com/news_main.asp?newsId=4727
> >
> > It turns out not to be true. Astarloa has already apologized to Bettini for saying this. But is
> > it because Bettini really didn't make an offer to Astarloa or does Astarloa apologizes because
> > attempts to make a deal may not become publically know while he did so?
>
>
> Curiously enough, I think Astarloa told the truth (the second time) and Bettini didn't offer him
> money. That doesn't mean that A. lied the first time: without any doubt Bettini asked for A's help
> and it goes without saying that he would paid Astarloa a lot of money if he had become world
> champion. But a pro is usually only offering a fixed sum when he really wants to buy a race (which
> wasn't the case because Bettini and van Petegem are better sprinters than A.) or when he doesn't
> know the guy (like Moser-Knetemann in 1978). But since Bettini and Asterloa are good friends it's
> not very likely that the first version of Asterloa's story was really true.

Why not? Astarloa can't outsprint Bettini. So if they got rid of everyone else, then Astarloa would
sit on, unless he had good reason not to (money).

[Sonarrat]

"benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:bmi8v4$lk754$1@ID-75468.news.uni-berlin.de...

> If they had got rid of the other four (hardly possible) and Asterloa would have sit on, the others
> would have caught them easily. Bettini is not so foolish to tow a man capable of beating him to
> the finish. The only thing Bettini hoped for was having a "friend" in the last few kilometers.

Probably if Astarloa had heard him correctly, he would not have refused (because they are reputedly
good friends) and Bettini would have won.

-Sonarrat.

[Benjo Maso]

"Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringioni.remove.it.for.mail@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uu0jb.108566$qj6.4698409@news1.news.adelphia.net...
>
> "benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote in message
> news:bmi30o$n88ei$1@ID-75468.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Kenny" <gelei2001@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:47493688.0310131658.3ce261b0@posting.google.com...
> > > > Enquiring minds want to know-
> > > >
> > > > Mama mia!
> > > >
> > > > http://www.procycling.com/news_main.asp?newsId=4727
> > >
> > > It turns out not to be true. Astarloa has already apologized to Bettini for saying this. But
> > > is it because Bettini really didn't make an offer to Astarloa or does Astarloa apologizes
> > > because attempts to make a deal may not become publically know while he did so?
> >
> >
> > Curiously enough, I think Astarloa told the truth (the second time) and Bettini didn't offer him
> > money. That doesn't mean that A. lied the first time: without any doubt Bettini asked for A's
> > help and it goes without saying that he would paid Astarloa a lot of money if he had become
> > world champion. But a pro is usually only offering a fixed sum when he really wants to buy a
> > race (which wasn't the case because Bettini and van
Petegem
> > are better sprinters than A.) or when he doesn't know the guy (like Moser-Knetemann in 1978).
> > But since Bettini and Asterloa are good
friends
> > it's not very likely that the first version of Asterloa's story was
really
> > true.
>
>
>
> Why not? Astarloa can't outsprint Bettini. So if they got rid of everyone else, then Astarloa
> would sit on, unless he had good reason not to
(money).

If they had got rid of the other four (hardly possible) and Asterloa would have sit on, the others
would have caught them easily. Bettini is not so foolish to tow a man capable of beating him to the
finish. The only thing Bettini hoped for was having a "friend" in the last few kilometers.

Benjo Maso

[Alex Beascochea]

"Sonarrat" <sonarrat@postmark.fishn..> wrote in message news:<voqvskmb20a257@corp.supernews.com>...
> "benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote in message
> news:bmi8v4$lk754$1@ID-75468.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> > If they had got rid of the other four (hardly possible) and Asterloa would have sit on, the
> > others would have caught them easily. Bettini is not so foolish to tow a man capable of beating
> > him to the finish. The only thing Bettini hoped for was having a "friend" in the last few
> > kilometers.
>
> Probably if Astarloa had heard him correctly, he would not have refused (because they are
> reputedly good friends) and Bettini would have won.
>
> -Sonarrat.

In my opinion Astarloa probably said the truth (the first time), but he later realized ( after
realizing that Bettini got really pissed) that he had screwed up by opening his trap about the
money. Those things are not suppossed to be publicized and much less when everybody is listening.

Also, the language barrier should not not have been a problem, after all Astarloa became a profi
(2000?) in Italy and has spent there the last 5 years or so. Even if his italian sounds quite
pathetic on TV
(O.K. the guy is not W.Churhill in spanish either)...

[Kurgan Gringion]

"benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:bmi8v4$lk754$1@ID-75468.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.procycling.com/news_main.asp?newsId=4727
> > > >
> > > > It turns out not to be true. Astarloa has already apologized to Bettini for saying this. But
> > > > is it because Bettini really didn't
make
> > > > an offer to Astarloa or does Astarloa apologizes because attempts to make a deal may not
> > > > become publically know while he did so?
> > >
> > >
> > > Curiously enough, I think Astarloa told the truth (the second time) and Bettini didn't offer
> > > him money. That doesn't mean that A. lied the
first
> > > time: without any doubt Bettini asked for A's help and it goes without saying that he would
> > > paid Astarloa a lot of money if he had become
world
> > > champion. But a pro is usually only offering a fixed sum when he really wants to buy a race
> > > (which wasn't the case because Bettini and van
> Petegem
> > > are better sprinters than A.) or when he doesn't know the guy (like Moser-Knetemann in 1978).
> > > But since Bettini and Asterloa are good
> friends
> > > it's not very likely that the first version of Asterloa's story was
> really
> > > true.
> >
> > Why not? Astarloa can't outsprint Bettini. So if they got rid of everyone else, then Astarloa
> > would sit on, unless he had good reason not to
> (money).
>
>
> If they had got rid of the other four (hardly possible) and Asterloa would have sit on, the others
> would have caught them easily. Bettini is not so foolish to tow a man capable of beating him to
> the finish. The only thing Bettini hoped for was having a "friend" in the last few kilometers.

That is possible. The other scenario is also possible.