Last minute training before marathon...
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I am to run my first marathon on the 27th, 13 days from now. I came pretty late to training, having
had problems with my left knee (which some orthotics have very much helped with), and my training
has been an attempt to accelerate the 90 day program to about 60 days. I still haven't run beyond
14.1 miles yet (which I did 9 days ago, and which was reasonably easy, I could have done a few more
miles without a problem - the person I was running with wanted to stop at that point). My plan was
to do a 20 mile run yesterday, but I foolishly tried out some different custom orthotics which
promised to eradicate the iliotibial band syndrome problem completely. The result was that I had to
bail out at 8 miles with severe aches in places I hadn't had before. (In retrospect I should, of
course, have continued with the decent but imperfect orthotics I had).
So, what do I do next? It's getting close to the winding down period, but I'm pretty sure I haven't
nearly wound UP enough yet. I don't want to pull out now. What's my best strategy for the last 13
days? Is it unthinkable to attempt 26.2 miles without having got beyond 14.1 before? I'm planning on
having another go at 20 tomorrow, if my aches and pains have disappeared in the morning, but I
probably shouldn't leave it much later than that, should I?
John
In article <cmeoovs9uqgccnj0kr0b5523hecddujuei@4ax.com>, John Moore
<john@spamfree-jmsd.co.uk> wrote:
>I am to run my first marathon on the 27th, 13 days from now. I came pretty late to training, having
>had problems with my left knee (which some orthotics have very much helped with), and my training
>has been an attempt to accelerate the 90 day program to about 60 days. I still haven't run beyond
>14.1 miles yet (which I did 9 days ago, and which was reasonably easy, I could have done a few more
>miles without a problem - the person I was running with wanted to stop at that point). My plan was
>to do a 20 mile run yesterday, but I foolishly tried out some different custom orthotics which
>promised to eradicate the iliotibial band syndrome problem completely. The result was that I had to
>bail out at 8 miles with severe aches in places I hadn't had before. (In retrospect I should, of
>course, have continued with the decent but imperfect orthotics I had).
>
>So, what do I do next? It's getting close to the winding down period, but I'm pretty sure I haven't
>nearly wound UP enough yet. I don't want to pull out now. What's my best strategy for the last 13
>days? Is it unthinkable to attempt 26.2 miles without having got beyond 14.1 before? I'm planning
>on having another go at 20 tomorrow, if my aches and pains have disappeared in the morning, but I
>probably shouldn't leave it much later than that, should I?
To summarize:
For a race in which a typical training program is 4-6 months, you took a 3 month plan, compressed
it to 2 months, and have not been able to carry out that training either.
Along the way, or perhaps before even starting the program, you
acquired a knee problem, new orthotics, and iliotibial band syndrom.
Yesterday, when the plan called for a 20 miler in training, you
had to bail on the run at 8 because of pain from your injury/injuries.
Already injured, severely undertrained, and unable -- due to pain from your injury -- to get past
mile 8 of a planned 20 miler, you still don't want to withdraw from the race.
Q: Is it unthinkable that you could finish?
R: Not really. People do all kinds of brutal things to themselves.
S: Would it be wise for your long term health and running career?
T: Hell no! The main question here would be how long, and whether, you recovered from your grossly
aggravated injuries. Side question being how many other injuries you'd incite along the way.
As Doug might say, be sure to have the body bag ready before you start the race.
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this
great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more
abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
On 14 Oct 2003 18:23:48 GMT, bobg@radix.net (Robert Grumbine) wrote:
> Yesterday, when the plan called for a 20 miler in training, you
> had to bail on the run at 8 because of pain from your injury/injuries.
>
> Already injured, severely undertrained, and unable -- due to pain from your injury -- to get past
> mile 8 of a planned 20 miler, you still don't want to withdraw from the race.
My 'injuries' (just a few aches) yesterday were to do with using the wrong orthotics. I will not be
using them again. It certainly isn't a case of exacerbating an existing injury - with my original
orthotics, I wouldn't have had any of the new aches, and would probably have managed the 20 miles
without too much of a problem.
Still, thanks for your input.
J.
In article <cmeoovs9uqgccnj0kr0b5523hecddujuei@4ax.com>, John Moore wrote:
Go ahead and run.
The less training, the better. Why waste time training 100 miles a week over several years when you
can finish on a 20 mile/week 60 day training program ?
PS: don't forget to submit an entry to the Darwin awards
Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
In article <23ioovca28qjtv212caramna1mvm2bqpfq@4ax.com>, John Moore wrote:
> On 14 Oct 2003 18:23:48 GMT, bobg@radix.net (Robert Grumbine) wrote:
>
>
>> Yesterday, when the plan called for a 20 miler in training, you
>> had to bail on the run at 8 because of pain from your injury/injuries.
>>
>> Already injured, severely undertrained, and unable -- due to pain from your injury -- to get
>> past mile 8 of a planned 20 miler, you still don't want to withdraw from the race.
>
> My 'injuries' (just a few aches) yesterday were to do with using the wrong orthotics. I will not
> be using them again.
You wouldn't have been experimenting with different orthotics if it weren't for the fact that you
had injury issues in the first place.
> It certainly isn't a case of exacerbating an existing injury - with my original orthotics, I
> wouldn't have had any of the new aches,
Zatopek used to run in army boots and did just fine. The fact that a minor shift in parameters
resulted in abandoning a long run appears to indicate that you are on the edge of overtraining,
which is also what one would expect in the face of an attempt to accelerate an already
accelerated program.
Bob is dead on -- you are overtrained, and undertrained at the same time.
Go ahead and run it, if that's what you want to do (I doubt you'll heed the only sensible advice,
which is to drop out) You might make it. But don't come around here looking for validation -- you
ain't gonna get it.
Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
In article <slrnbooig8.nos.abuse@panix2.panix.com>, Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <cmeoovs9uqgccnj0kr0b5523hecddujuei@4ax.com>, John Moore wrote:
>
>Go ahead and run.
>
>The less training, the better. Why waste time training 100 miles a week over several years when you
>can finish on a 20 mile/week 60 day training program ?
>
>PS: don't forget to submit an entry to the Darwin awards
PPS: _before_ entering the race.
The amount and type of training that people do and still survive a marathon is astounding. But
it's their call, mostly.
It's ironic, though, to be getting the question from someone who has so much less training than I
am already considering dubious for myself. I've gotten in the long runs, up to a 20 miler that was
quite comfortable. That, plus the 8-10 runs of 2 hours and over are sufficient for me to finish
the race, I know by my prior experience at 50km on trails. But, the fact that I've averaged only
20-30 miles per week, and almost none of it was above marathon pace, is more than sufficient to
encourage me to trash the original time goal and try to guesstimate more reasonable ones from what
training I have gotten in.
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this
great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more
abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:50:51 +0000 (UTC), Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote:
>Zatopek used to run in army boots and did just fine. The fact that a minor shift in parameters
>resulted in abandoning a long run appears to indicate that you are on the edge of overtraining,
I pulled out of the long run so that I wouldn't cause any damage. I daresay that anyone, however
well trained, would have done the same if they discovered their changed orthotics were not
working for them.
>
>Go ahead and run it, if that's what you want to do (I doubt you'll heed the only sensible advice,
>which is to drop out) You might make it. But don't come around here looking for validation -- you
>ain't gonna get it.
OK, so that's another vote for 'just give up', then. No, I'm not looking for validation, I'm looking
for helpful advice. This is my first visit to this newsgroup, and I may have misunderstood its
target audience. I'm not trying to run the marathon in any great time, I'm just trying to complete
it any old how, which will almost certainly mean slowing to a walk for some stretches of the race.
I was just hoping to get some useful tips on what might make it a little less hard on the day, given
where I am now. I'm pretty fit and probably somewhat less ill-prepared than you and Robert seem to
have assumed, for some reason (it's not as if the 60 day programme was from a couch-potato starting
point). I just don't get what the sheer negativity is about. I'm not going to kill myself trying to
run the thing - if it gets to a point where I can't go on, I'll stop. I just don't see why I have to
decide to stop now, before even giving it a go.
J.
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:10:00 +0000 (UTC), Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote:
>The less training, the better. Why waste time training 100 miles a week over several years when you
>can finish on a 20 mile/week 60 day training program ?
Sorry, I don't recall mentioning 20 mile/week. Where did you get that from?
J.
John Moore <john@spamfree-jmsd.co.uk> wrote:
> I am to run my first marathon on the 27th, 13 days from now. I came pretty late to training,
> having had problems with my left knee (which some orthotics have very much helped with), and my
> training has been an attempt to accelerate the 90 day program to about 60 days. I still haven't
> run beyond 14.1 miles yet (which I did 9 days ago, and which was reasonably easy, I could have
> done a few more miles without a problem - the person I was running with wanted to stop at that
> point). My plan was to do a 20 mile run yesterday, but I foolishly tried out some different custom
> orthotics which promised to eradicate the iliotibial band syndrome problem completely. The result
> was that I had to bail out at 8 miles with severe aches in places I hadn't had before. (In
> retrospect I should, of course, have continued with the decent but imperfect orthotics I had).
>
> So, what do I do next? It's getting close to the winding down period, but I'm pretty sure I
> haven't nearly wound UP enough yet. I don't want to pull out now. What's my best strategy for the
> last 13 days? Is it unthinkable to attempt 26.2 miles without having got beyond 14.1 before? I'm
> planning on having another go at 20 tomorrow, if my aches and pains have disappeared in the
> morning, but I probably shouldn't leave it much later than that, should I?
In a perfect world, you could put in about 10 miles for the week before the race, about
20-25 two weeks before the race, and about 30-35 three weeks before the race, with runs of
12, and 8 for long runs.
If you wanted to do 20, you should do it no later than this weekend. However, you are doing
it a little late, which means you might not be completely recovered from the 20 before the
race, which means you might not have the reserves in energy in the later parts of the race.
Coupled with the lack of miles, those last 6 miles of the race are going to suck, no matter
the pace you set. Those last 6-8 miles are why most training programs have at least 5-6 runs
of more than 15 miles. You will have only done one.
Give it a whirl, but it is not going to be much fun, and don't go in with much expectations.
-jeremy
--
+================================================================+ Jeremy Hallum, System Manager ,
Astronomy, University of Michigan jhallum@umich.edu::jhallum@dreamt.org "Audentis Fortuna Iuvat"
John Moore <john@spamfree-jmsd.co.uk> wrote:
> I am to run my first marathon on the 27th, 13 days from now. I came
....
> So, what do I do next? It's getting close to the winding down period, but I'm pretty sure I
> haven't nearly wound UP enough yet.
13 days isn't enough time for winding up and down. you'd have to choose one. i'd go with winding up.
go for the 20 miler and then treat the marathon as a training run.
>I don't want to pull out now.
is there any reason why, if i may ask?
> What's my best strategy for the last 13 days? Is it unthinkable to attempt 26.2 miles without
> having got beyond 14.1 before?
not unthinkable, but you should pretty much know by now what most folks would think of it. ;-) it
will be tough so be prepared. worst comes to worst, you can think of it as one long hike. might take
you 5, 6, or 7 hours but i'm guessing you're not in it for the time.
there have been folks who have done it. search the r.r. archives. i remember one case where a guy
with minimal training finished in 5 hrs and 40 minutes or so. this was within the last 4-5 months.
so, if you're willing to take a legion of risks, go for it. the risks might include:
- not finishing
- cramping by the time you're into mile 15 or 17 or 18...
- injuries that might linger on for a few months afterward
on the other hand, if you finish, you have the opportunity to say that you ran a marathon.
you don't say anything about your running background, your age, typical times, weekly mileage etc.
but assuming your mileage is less than 30-40 miles a week, and knowing that your long run so far is
only 14, i'd be surprised if you can finish in under 5 hours.
> I'm planning on having another go at 20 tomorrow, if my aches and pains have disappeared in the
> morning, but I probably shouldn't leave it much later than that, should I?
it's upto you. no pain, no gain ;-) on the other hand, pain tomorrow might mean more pain day
after and ....
good luck. jobs
In article <emmoov4gm48rctm9ubdkpa43ndv2buij37@4ax.com>, John Moore wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:50:51 +0000 (UTC), Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Zatopek used to run in army boots and did just fine. The fact that a minor shift in parameters
>>resulted in abandoning a long run appears to indicate that you are on the edge of overtraining,
>
> I pulled out of the long run so that I wouldn't cause any damage. I
I understand that, but I consider it completely beside the point. There is no excuse that is good
enough for not having done a single long run by now. If .. IF you're not seriously overtrained, and
*AGAIN*, I believe, and I speak from experience when I say, that these aches and pains are actually
injury precursors/overtraining symptoms, which means that you seriously need to back off if you're
not overtrained, then the fact remains that you are still inadequately prepared.
>>Go ahead and run it, if that's what you want to do (I doubt you'll heed the only sensible advice,
>>which is to drop out) You might make it. But don't come around here looking for validation -- you
>>ain't gonna get it.
>
> OK, so that's another vote for 'just give up', then.
Yep.
> No, I'm not looking for validation, I'm looking for helpful advice. This is my first visit to this
> newsgroup,
You could have googled. We get a lot of posts from newbies who want to run a marathon on woefully
inadequate training.
> and I may have misunderstood its target audience. I'm not trying to run the marathon in any great
> time, I'm just trying to complete it any old how, which will almost certainly mean slowing to a
> walk for some stretches of the race.
If you're willing to accept walking part of the way, you may want to consider the walk/run approach
championed by Galloway. Pick up one of his books and read up on it. It will probably greatly
increase your chances of finishing without requiring medical attention.
> I was just hoping to get some useful tips on what might make it a little less hard on the day,
> given where I am now. I'm pretty fit and probably somewhat less ill-prepared than you and Robert
> seem to have assumed, for some reason (it's not as if the 60 day programme was from a couch-potato
> starting point).
If your longest run ever is 14 miles , that is indeed "couch potato" as far as the marathon is
concerned.
> I just don't get what the sheer negativity is about.
The "sheer negativity is about" the fact that you are woefully underprepared for what you are about
to attempt. Part of the problem is that you simply don't seem to understand what preparing for a
marathon involves.
For example, I've had some interest in running the New York marathon, but 60 days out, I was
thinking of laying down a plan to prepare for *next years* marathon. That plan includes building an
adequate milage base and running some half marathons early in the year, so that my marathon training
will already be on top of a foundation of half-marathon training. Then the last 4-6 months could
involve a marathon-specific training cycle.
You can't properly prepare for a marathon in days. You build up some kind of foundation of
endurance, and then spend a few months preparing for it.
Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:01:31 GMT, jhallum@umich.edu wrote:
> If you wanted to do 20, you should do it no later than this weekend. However, you are doing
> it a little late, which means you might not be completely recovered from the 20 before the
> race, which means you might not have the reserves in energy in the later parts of the race.
> Coupled with the lack of miles, those last 6 miles of the race are going to suck, no matter
> the pace you set. Those last 6-8 miles are why most training programs have at least 5-6 runs
> of more than 15 miles. You will have only done one.
>
Thanks for your response, and for treating it seriously. Yes, I'll definitely not be doing the
long run later than the weekend - in fact, Thursday (two days from now) is probably the last day I
would consider
it. After that, what, though? Cease the training to allow my body to recover as much as possible in
the last 10 days, or continue to do some light training?
> Give it a whirl, but it is not going to be much fun, and don't go in with much expectations.
>
No, I'm not expecting a lot! I would like to do it, though.
John
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:10:22 +0000 (UTC), jobin@REMOVE-DEEZ-WORDS.cs.ucr.edu wrote:
>13 days isn't enough time for winding up and down. you'd have to choose one. i'd go with winding
>up. go for the 20 miler and then treat the marathon as a training run.
That's what I'm thinking at present.
>>I don't want to pull out now.
>
>is there any reason why, if i may ask?
Because it was my girlfriend who started this whole thing some months back. I was going out for some
training runs with her to keep her company, without planning to do the thing myself. A couple of
months ago, I decided I might as well make a go of it anyway, what was there to lose (apart from
sanity, health, ability to walk, etc.). But she's not able to do it now, having twisted her ankle in
training, and I want to take her place and take over her sponsors, to get some sponsorship money for
a cause which is very important for her.
>
> you can think of it as one long hike. might take you 5, 6, or 7 hours but i'm guessing you're not
> in it for the time.
No, I'm not.
>
>you don't say anything about your running background, your age, typical times, weekly mileage etc.
>but assuming your mileage is less than 30-40 miles a week, and knowing that your long run so far is
>only 14, i'd be surprised if you can finish in under 5 hours.
I have routinely 'gone for runs' without ever really being serious about long distance running until
I started going out on these training runs with my girlfriend. I'm 43, and weigh 148lb. My weekly
mileage in the last couple of months has been around 30. The 14.1 mile run was a tad slower than the
norm, and was in 2 hours (c. 8 mins 30 secs per mile).
>it's upto you. no pain, no gain ;-) on the other hand, pain tomorrow might mean more pain day
>after and ....
>
>good luck
Thanks!
John
John Moore <john@spamfree-jmsd.co.uk> wrote:
> Because it was my girlfriend who started this whole thing some months back. I was going out for
> some training runs with her to keep her company, without planning to do the thing myself. A couple
> of months ago, I decided I might as well make a go of it anyway, what was there to lose (apart
> from sanity, health, ability to walk, etc.). But she's not able to do it now, having twisted her
> ankle in training, and I want to take her place and take over her sponsors, to get some
> sponsorship money for a cause which is very important for her.
a worthy cause. i admire your spirit.
> I have routinely 'gone for runs' without ever really being serious about long distance running
> until I started going out on these training runs with my girlfriend. I'm 43, and weigh 148lb. My
> weekly mileage in the last couple of months has been around 30. The 14.1 mile run was a tad slower
> than the norm, and was in 2 hours (c. 8 mins 30 secs per mile).
if you can do 14 in 2 hrs and have a weekly mileage of 30, i guess you can finish the marathon. but
forget about time. just as long as you finish before the course closes.
let us know how you do.
regards jobs
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:06:22 +0100, John Moore wrote:
>
[request for marathon info without training]
Hi, John,
Let me take a different approach here. I'm a 5+ hour marathoner (yes, I am) and an expert (at least
until I run my second one this December). So, I'm a "strive to finish" kind of guy. You are
undoubtedly in better shape than me so go ahead and run it. As you've said, you can always drop out
if long-term (physical or mental) injury seems imminent (and you notice it before the fact). Worst
case (barring injury) is that you get a supported long run.
There are some interesting things about the marathon(+) distance. The difference between 14 miles
and 20 miles is absolutely amazing. While I didn't doubt the people who told me this (in
rec.running), I didn't really understand until I'd done it. I did a 4-hour 20-miler today (my 10th
or so) and it still is amazing. As slow as I am (and it's MASSIVE SLOW), one would think that it
wouldn't be so difficult. Wrong. It's difficult no matter what speed you run. Now, having said that,
the difference between 20 miles and
26.2 miles is yet another level. I know it's only 10K but it really isn't *just* another 10K. I
would simply give you a heads up that 14 miles probably (we're all different) won't give you any
idea of what 20 miles is like, let alone 26.2.
Are you nervous? Are you're palms sweaty? :-) Well, they should be. And, I still you think you
should do the marathon. Tips to get through the event:
From the starting gun, go out so slowly that little old ladies in walkers are passing you - it still
won't be slow enough but it will get you a little farther. The absolute worst thing you can do on
the big day (other than forgetting your shorts until you get to the start line - not that I'd know
but I would imagine that to be true) is to start off too fast. Yes, I do believe that a runner can
run so slowly that they burn more energy than if they sped up a bit but that won't happen, trust me.
I'm an expert, remember? If, during the event, you think a walking spell might be nice, DO IT! If
you wait until you *have* to walk, you're toast. Walk through each water station to make sure you
get as much water in you as possible (you might want to talk to experienced 4+-hour marathoners
about hydration and nutrition during the event). If they offer you food, eat it. Yes, there is a
very good rule to try nothing new on race day but you probably haven't had a chance to try out
different sports drinks, different electrolyte replacements, and different calorie replenishers in
runs over 4 hours (they're different than 2 hour runs). If you need to toss cookies, please move off
the course and toss. If you need to visit the port-o-let, do it. Take in the atmosphere, there's
nothing quite like it. Don't talk to others around you - talking uses up a huge amount of energy and
you're going to need it. Get a nice list of inspirational thoughts - corny as it sounds, they'll
really help after mile
27. Here's one: "I'm going to finish this damn marathon just to make those SOBs on rec.running eat
crow." Stubbornness is not only a virtue after 4 hours but mandatory. Toward mile 18-20, you may
go into the "Death March" which is a kind of a shuffle. It is my opinion that the Death March
has gotten a bad rap. If you are moving forward, you're doing good. Embrace the March, caress
the March, ask the March to call you the next morning (trust me, by this time it will make
sense). Don't be disappointed if it doesn't - there'll be other marathons. WHEN (!) you make it
to the finish line, there is no tradition that you jump in the air and click your heels. Cross
it like you've been there before. Then puke.
On a more serious note, the physical injuries (ITB, AT, cramps) are definitely worth abandoning.
They will let you know - you just have to listen. There are some other dangers that aren't so easy
to spot. Dehydration, water poisoning, and gastric distress can be more subtle in their onset but
more terrible in their consequences. Learn about race hydration and nutrition.
Good luck and I'd like to echo Jobs' suggestion to please let us know how it goes. Layne
-------------------------------------------------------
The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running
FWIW The general wisdom seems to be that training in the last two weeks before an event does not
benefit you in terms of performance and if you push yourself at all you simply cause damage that
won't have time to heal. In an earlier thread Donovan had some interesting points about neurological
functions which might encourage you to do a few short runs at goal pace just to remind your body
what running is like. But IMHO you'd be well advised to follow some of Mike's and Donovan's
suggestions above when it comes to the race itself. If you go out at 8.30 you will probably be able
to keep it up for 15 miles. Then suddenly your splits will slide to 9.0 and then 9.30. By 20 miles
your quads will be hurting like hell and you will probably be picking up the first signs of what
will eventually (at around 23-24 miles) turn into debilitating cramping (trust me: having your quads
and calves in both legs cramp simultaneously is not only painful but also terrifying). Quite apart
from this, you will be feeling completely shattered, and if you try to take in energy from gels or
other sources you will probably have stomach cramps and/or throw up. Actually that will probably
happen around about mile 19. When/if you cross the line you will be totally pissed off by the time
you've "achieved" and feeling so ill that you won't take any pleasure in what will actually have
been a heroic - if ill-conceived - feat. For the next week you'll barely be able to walk. You may -
as Donovan suggests - have incurred a few nasty injuries, specially as you say you've had trouble
before. However, if you follow some of the sound advice your original post has elicited, you may
well finish in quite a reasonable time (say under 4.30 or even under 4 hours given your build).
After all, there is anecdotal evidence of people completing marathons respectably on very little
training. As one of the more anarchic marathon runners in this ng (in the sense of knowing all the
right things to do but doing practically none of them) I do like to know what I'm going to put my
body through. You don't have that luxury yet. But good luck anyway!
"John Moore" <john@spamfree-jmsd.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hcpqovo6sfh9lkv3sk8trolqa78015cngp@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:09:40 -0500, Dave Andersen <dga@no.spam.pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > The problem of training is that you could actually help yourself if you had three weeks left -
> > I'd suggest a 17 miler now, a 12-13 miler two weeks out, and a ~9 miler the week before. But
> > that 17 miler will cause little breakdowns that won't heal in 13 days, particularly since that
> > itself is a 3 mile increase from your last run, and you don't want to do that with only 12 or
> > 13 days left.
>
> So what would your suggestion be at this point (given that I AM going to attempt it somehow <g>)?
> Light training or just rest? Cross-training to keep fit while not taxing my 'running muscles'? (I
> have substantially boosted my general aerobic fitness by using a cross-country ski type trainer,
> but this is probably too close to running to be a smart idea at this point, isn't it?).
>
> J.
John Moore <john@spamfree-jmsd.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:09:40 -0500, Dave Andersen <dga@no.spam.pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> The problem of training is that you could actually help yourself if you had three weeks left -
>> I'd suggest a 17 miler now, a 12-13 miler two weeks out, and a ~9 miler the week before. But
>> that 17 miler will cause little breakdowns that won't heal in 13 days, particularly since that
>> itself is a 3 mile increase from your last run, and you don't want to do that with only 12 or 13
>> days left.
>
> So what would your suggestion be at this point (given that I AM going to attempt it somehow <g>)?
> Light training or just rest? Cross-training to keep fit while not taxing my 'running muscles'? (I
> have substantially boosted my general aerobic fitness by using a cross-country ski type trainer,
> but this is probably too close to running to be a smart idea at this point, isn't it?).
Light training. Someone posted some good suggestions earlier. Mostly, you'd probably just want to
follow a standard marathon taper, but modify it a bit since a 12 mile run isn't a really easy run
if you're coming from a 14 mile longest. But a 10ish miler would certainly be appropriate - or
that 1.5 hours that the earlier poster suggested. There's been a lot posted about tapering for
marathons, google for some of those threads.
-Dave
--
work: dga - at - lcs.mit.edu me: angio - at - pobox.com MIT Laboratory for Computer Science
http://www.angio.net/ (note that my reply-to address is vaguely despammed...) bulk emailers: I do
not accept unsolicited email. Do not mail me.
It sounds like you have the physical part under control. Now it's time to work on the mental
challenges of the race. Suit up, and stand in front of a mirror. Repeat the following phrase several
times to yourself, until you believe it to be true. "I'm not as stupid as I look." "I'm not as
stupid as I look." "I'm not as stupid as I look."
Layne, this was a most thoughtful post, I think, and quite generous of you to take the time to
gather your thoughts and write it. I think it is very good advice for all first-time marathon folks.
Thanks for sharing.
>"Layne Wallace" <lwallace@unf.edu> wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:06:22 +0100, John Moore wrote:
>
>>
>[request for marathon info without training]
>
>Hi, John,
>
>Let me take a different approach here. I'm a 5+ hour marathoner (yes, I am) and an expert (at least
>until I run my second one this December). So, I'm a "strive to finish" kind of guy. You are
>undoubtedly in better shape than me so go ahead and run it. As you've said, you can always drop out
>if long-term (physical or mental) injury seems imminent (and you notice it before the fact). Worst
>case (barring injury) is that you get a supported long run.
>
>There are some interesting things about the marathon(+) distance. The difference between 14 miles
>and 20 miles is absolutely amazing. While I didn't doubt the people who told me this (in
>rec.running), I didn't really understand until I'd done it. I did a 4-hour 20-miler today (my 10th
>or so) and it still is amazing. As slow as I am (and it's MASSIVE SLOW), one would think that it
>wouldn't be so difficult. Wrong. It's difficult no matter what speed you run. Now, having said
>that, the difference between 20 miles and
>26.2 miles is yet another level. I know it's only 10K but it really isn't *just* another 10K. I
> would simply give you a heads up that 14 miles probably (we're all different) won't give you any
> idea of what 20 miles is like, let alone 26.2.
>
>Are you nervous? Are you're palms sweaty? :-) Well, they should be. And, I still you think you
>should do the marathon. Tips to get through the event:
>
>From the starting gun, go out so slowly that little old ladies in walkers are passing you - it
>still won't be slow enough but it will get you a little farther. The absolute worst thing you can
>do on the big day (other than forgetting your shorts until you get to the start line - not that I'd
>know but I would imagine that to be true) is to start off too fast. Yes, I do believe that a runner
>can run so slowly that they burn more energy than if they sped up a bit but that won't happen,
>trust me. I'm an expert, remember? If, during the event, you think a walking spell might be nice,
>DO IT! If you wait until you *have* to walk, you're toast. Walk through each water station to make
>sure you get as much water in you as possible (you might want to talk to experienced 4+-hour
>marathoners about hydration and nutrition during the event). If they offer you food, eat it. Yes,
>there is a very good rule to try nothing new on race day but you probably haven't had a chance to
>try out different sports drinks, different electrolyte replacements, and different calorie
>replenishers in runs over 4 hours (they're different than 2 hour runs). If you need to toss
>cookies, please move off the course and toss. If you need to visit the port-o-let, do it. Take in
>the atmosphere, there's nothing quite like it. Don't talk to others around you - talking uses up a
>huge amount of energy and you're going to need it. Get a nice list of inspirational thoughts -
>corny as it sounds, they'll really help after mile
>18. Here's one: "I'm going to finish this damn marathon just to make those SOBs on rec.running eat
> crow." Stubbornness is not only a virtue after 4 hours but mandatory. Toward mile 18-20, you
> may go into the "Death March" which is a kind of a shuffle. It is my opinion that the Death
> March has gotten a bad rap. If you are moving forward, you're doing good. Embrace the March,
> caress the March, ask the March to call you the next morning (trust me, by this time it will
> make sense). Don't be disappointed if it doesn't - there'll be other marathons. WHEN (!) you
> make it to the finish line, there is no tradition that you jump in the air and click your
> heels. Cross it like you've been there before. Then puke.
>
>On a more serious note, the physical injuries (ITB, AT, cramps) are definitely worth abandoning.
>They will let you know - you just have to listen. There are some other dangers that aren't so easy
>to spot. Dehydration, water poisoning, and gastric distress can be more subtle in their onset but
>more terrible in their consequences. Learn about race hydration and nutrition.
>
>Good luck and I'd like to echo Jobs' suggestion to please let us know how it goes. Layne
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:03:56 -0500, Robert Karp wrote:
>Layne, this was a most thoughtful post, I think, and quite generous of you to take the time to
>gather your thoughts and write it. I think it is very good advice for all first-time marathon
>folks. Thanks for sharing.
>
Thanks, Robert. Simple thoughts from a simple mind. I hope he doesn't get hurt. Hmm, I also hope it
isn't *too* easy for him <VBG>.
Layne
-------------------------------------------------------
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