Zen and the Art of Depletion Loading
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You are invited to read my article about the secret weapon of the 70's marathon runner.
http://members.rogers.com/longboatexpress/
or
http://members.rogers.com/longboatexpress/Articles/depletionloading.htm
John G. Lyng Editor, Longboat Daily Express Daily News for Runners in Toronto Canada
OK John...you put this out there...let me make some comments, perhaps you can respond/address them.
1. I've never heard of a M training program that called for a 16 mile run a week before race day.
Most I've seen call for a run of this distance to be no closer than 2 weeks plus...away/out from
race day. In understand that stated purpose of doing this...however is there no alternative?
2. Then after that 16 Mile run, you've got 3 days of 4-5 miles...meaning you're running 30 Miles the
final week/race week. Most all training program call for less than 50% of this amount of running
(12-14 miles total).
3. Then you've got 3 days of no running prior to race day....and most all training programs call for
limited running on Thur & Sat. (Assuming Sun. is race day)....ie. you're entering the thread that
was here last week w/Donovan and "detraining", etc.
And all this for the purpose of avoiding the "wall"? In training for a M, won't 3 LD runs of 18-20
miles effectively prepare you for overcoming the wall?...supplimented w/some Gels?
I question if the "sum total" of steps in this process that defy & counter 2003 runner's
wisdom/training programs ultimately take their toll, add up, and have a negative/adverse effect on
your performance on race day?
I don't doubt the physiology at work behind your "model"...I just think the downside is not worth
the upside versus the better alternative of sticking w/a series of LD runs in your training, 10-12
miles race week, carbo load 3 days before, Gel & Hydrate well in the race.
Would I do a 16 Mile run a week before an M? No Way.
Andrew....
<MJuric> wrote in message news:3f8dbe23.194760357@news.choiceone.net...
> On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:49:32 GMT, "John G. Lyng" <Lyngj@Hotmail.com>
(edit)
>
> A few questions here.
>
> 1. You mention in the paper that gluconeogenesis is fat burning. I do believe that that is an
> incorrect statement. I believe that gluconeogenesis is the process of creating glucose.
Correct. "Fat burning" is called fatty acid oxidation.
> I also believe that fat cannot be directly converted thru gluconeogenesis to glucose.
Correct again, however, the end product of fatty acid oxidation, Acetyl-CoA is a direct regulator of
gluconeogenesis. Pyruvate, the end product of glycolysis (glucose burning) has two fates. It can
either be a substrate for gluconeogenesis, or it can be converted to Acetyl-CoA, a substrate for the
TCA cycle. The TCA cycle is a process that produces high energy molecules. Pyruvate's fate is
determined by the presence of activated enzymes. If the enzyme pyruvate carboxylase (PC) is
activated, pyruvate is shuttled into gluconeogenesis. If pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH) is activated,
pyruvate is shuttled into the TCA cycle. If the concentration of Acetyl-CoA is high, PC is activated
and PDH is inhibited. This condition favors gluconeogenesis over glycolysis. In this sense,
increased fat burning (resulting in an increased concentration of Acetyl Co-A) directly upregulates
gluconeogenesis.
(edit)
>
> Here's a link on gluconeogenesis.
>
> http://www.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/gluconeogenesis.html
>
> You'll notice very little has to do with fat.
>
If you go up one level in this heiarchy you'll find links to the TCA cycle, fatty acid oxidation and
how fat burning is directly connected to gluconeogenesis.
http://www.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/
> I'll also dig up some of the info on Carb depletion and post them in a follow up.
>
Thanks Matt. I haven't looked at the original poster's link. I just wanted to respond to some of
your comments on his link.
Patrick
Thanks Andrew.
These are all good points, and a fair critique of the method.
John "Globaldisc" <globaldisc@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031015095900.15549.00000741@mb-m28.aol.com...
> OK John...you put this out there...let me make some comments, perhaps you
can
> respond/address them.
>
> 1. I've never heard of a M training program that called for a 16 mile run
a
> week before race day. Most I've seen call for a run of this distance to
be no
> closer than 2 weeks plus...away/out from race day. In understand that
stated
> purpose of doing this...however is there no alternative?
>
> 2. Then after that 16 Mile run, you've got 3 days of 4-5 miles...meaning
you're
> running 30 Miles the final week/race week. Most all training program call
for
> less than 50% of this amount of running (12-14 miles total).
>
> 3. Then you've got 3 days of no running prior to race day....and most all training programs call
> for limited running on Thur & Sat. (Assuming Sun.
is
> race day)....ie. you're entering the thread that was here last week
w/Donovan
> and "detraining", etc.
>
> And all this for the purpose of avoiding the "wall"? In training for a M, won't 3 LD runs of 18-20
> miles effectively prepare you for overcoming the wall?...supplimented w/some Gels?
>
> I question if the "sum total" of steps in this process that defy & counter
2003
> runner's wisdom/training programs ultimately take their toll, add up, and
have
> a negative/adverse effect on your performance on race day?
>
> I don't doubt the physiology at work behind your "model"...I just think
the
> downside is not worth the upside versus the better alternative of sticking
x/a
> series of LD runs in your training, 10-12 miles race week, carbo load 3
days
> before, Gel & Hydrate well in the race.
>
> Would I do a 16 Mile run a week before an M? No Way.
>
> Andrew....
>
Anders Lustig wrote: The latest
> version has it that a session of as little as 20min brisk
> + 20min hard will do, but AFAIK this isnīt backed up by studies like the former two are.
>
You might take a look at Muscle Glycogen Resgynthsis after Short Term High Intensity Exercise and
Resistance Exercise, Sports Medicine 21:98-118. 1996.
Rapid Carbohydrate Loading after a Short Bout of Near Maximal-Intensity Exercis. Medicine and
Science in Sports and Exercies 34(6): 980-986. 2002.
I haven't looked at either but they are cited in Great Glycogen Without Grueling Glucose Gluttony:
New Carb Strategy Has What it Takes to Help you Perform Better. Running Research News 18(5): 1,8-10.
Owen Anderson. June-July 2002.
The studies were done at Dept of Human Movement and Exercise Science at U of Western Australia.
Highlights for 24-hr plan that could be done 2 or 3 days before event:
1. Start eating carbs as soon as possible after finishing pre-race exercise.
2. Consume high-glycemic-index foods during 24-hr period.
3. Once you have completed your warm-up, perform 3 min burst (see below), and then cool down, do not
exercise again during the subsequent 24-hr period.
The 3-min burst: 5 min warmup, 150 sec at 130% VO2max, then all out 30-sec sprint (don't hesitate
between these). Lactate levels on athletes were 21.9mM/l. Following a cool-down, each began 24-hr,
high-carb eating plan, during which they ingested 12 g relatively high-glycemic index carbs per kg
of lean body mass. Ingestion started within 20 min after end of exercises. 80% of carbs came from
Polycose, a matltoextrose-rich drink.
They used muscle biopsies, not race performance, as indicator if I'm reading it correctly.
No, I haven't tried it. Just contributing some literature.
Caveat: I just hit the highlights. Reading the original articles - or at least Owen Anderson's full
summary - are probably worth the time to see caliber of study athletes, etc. More than I'm going to
type :) Anderson's article also highlights some carb loading schemes developed back in the 60s
(Swedish) and 80s (US).
Dot
--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
Anders Lustig wrote:
>
> globaldisc@aol.com (Globaldisc) wrote in message
...
>> I understand that stated purpose of doing this...however is there no alternative?
>
> The genuine 70īs carbodepletíon strategy does call for a long and exhausting session, but these
> days the theory is that a brisk session of 90-120 will do - which may not be all that different
> for the 2:10 runners, but for the rest of us itīs definitely good news. The latest version has it
> that a session of as little as 20min brisk
> + 20min hard will do, but AFAIK this isnīt backed up by studies like the former two are.
>
> The original plan entailed three days of carbo depletion, but nowadays it is permitted to shorten
> it to two days,
Hi Anders,
I did the depletion 4 days before the race, as I already wrote in:
http://google.com/groups?selm=3F8E419F.3E5B%40dc.ac
It is not really a hard training, since after a few days of protein/fat diet (combined with some
excercise) the depletion doesn't take that much effort. It's deliberately hitting the wall in 20
minutes, and then doing some lousy intervals to deplete even further. Or: an attempt to train hard,
which fails miserably, and is then called a success!
Of course, for those who don't have trust in the theory this result could be a mental blow, so close
before the race. And some may say that it's challenging your luck, to go out and actually touch "the
wall" (in fact give it a patronizing pat on the head!)
-- Jos
[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for
details. ]]
> Newsgroups: rec.running Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:28:02 -0400 From: Patrick <paro@ic.sunysb.edu>
> Subject: Re: Zen and the Art of Depletion Loading
>
> Thanks Matt. I haven't looked at the original poster's link. I just wanted to respond to some of
> your comments on his link.
>
> Patrick
Patrick,
As always, I am appreciative of the scientific clarity you bring and have brought over the years to
rec.running. It is nice knowing that you are around to clarify folklore and misconceptions and
misnomers.
Another piece of information that goes into my Patrick/Science archive file.
In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
Clinic, est. 1975
Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
In article <gvajb.201980$3r1.108371@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, John G. Lyng
<Lyngj@Hotmail.com> wrote:
> You are invited to read my article about the secret weapon of the 70's marathon runner.
>
> http://members.rogers.com/longboatexpress/
> http://members.rogers.com/longboatexpress/Articles/depletionloading.htm
>
>
> John G. Lyng Editor, Longboat Daily Express Daily News for Runners in Toronto Canada
Something I wrote after having lived through the depletion/loading regimen of the mid to late 70's.
It was a trip down the pre-marathon preparation.
In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
Clinic, est. 1975
Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
The Day Before the Marathon: Understanding and Living ADHD
c. 2001 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D.
In the late 70's, the depletion phase was standard operating procedure. The idea being to super
saturate regarding carboloading. Ability to store 1.2 to 1.4 times more glycogen were the numbers
batted around.
After the Sunday run until Wednesday, we would go high protein and minimal to no carbos. By
Wednesday a 6 to 8 mile depletion run was truly an experience of running the Bataan Death March. My
body remembers the experience of being carbo depleted and the feeling of not being able of going
on...let alone run a marathon in 4 days.
After that is was a carbo gorging for a day and a half to two days.
Problems that might occur with the fanatical approach to depletion
1. From keytosis and not enough water taken during this period:
a. resistance down: colds, other bacteria invade
b. muscle injury or soreness from dehydration
c. high level of irritability
d. negative mental state about being able to run a mile let alone a marathon.
e. bad breath
In the late 70's moderation and common sense entered the scene.
Yo, by cutting back on your running and eating regular and drinking enough fluids to be well
hydrated, you'll carboload without the pain and minimize chances of injury and illness.
I realized that by eating normally for the last 3 days and hydrating well, that the energy I ran on
was what was stored on Thursday and Friday for my Sunday marathon. How sensible.
I got into eating an early dinner of high bulk: romaine and leafy lettuce (not iceberg lettuce),
cabbage, veggies, whole grain rolls or bread and a little chicken or fish. Then I'd go to the pasta
bash to hang out and get into the spirit and get energized by the spirit of my fellow
marathoners...and just hang out and socialize - as I was already hyper from 2 or 3 days of minimal
to no running. At these times I picked up a lot of folklore, and realized before it became a
diagnosis that everyone of these marathoners or marathoners-to-be could be diagnosed as full blown
Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disordered (ADHD).
It was all that pent up energy waiting to be released and having no outlet except talking and
nervousness and apprehension and worry and anxiety and thinking and thinking and thinking and
thinking about thinking and wondering and creating a million scenarios to worry about, fret, and
fear. Fear of coming up with a pain or an injury somewhere in the marathon, like what happens if it
occurs before the half marathon and it's all due to going out to slow, but if I go out too slow, how
will I make up those 2 or three minutes, and oh my gawd, I heard about the guy who forgot his shoes
because he was so nervous and the woman who forgot her running shorts and had to buy a new pair and
didn't wash them and they cut the hell out of her inside thighs and she didn't make her Boston
qualifying time, and I'd better be careful to not put too much Vasaline on and between my toes as
I've heard that the Vasaline creates a barrier and won't allow the moisture on my feet to be easily
evaporated and my feet will get soft and blister more easily, and **** I forgot to put the piece of
duct tape on the bottom of my sorbothene inserts so they won't slip forward like they usually do,
and if that happens at mile 18 and I stop to fit them, I could get a cramp just like Steve got when
he bent over to tie his shoe and he had to limp in the last 8 miles.
Wait Ozzie, Breathe, That's right Breathe. Feel better now. Wait, take another breath. Hmmmm, throat
feels a little raw. Wonder if I getting a sore throat. That's all I need. If I'm not hydrated
enough, my mucous membrane in my throat and nose is drier. But my pee's clear the 6 times I've peed
in the last 45 minutes. I remember someone picturing it to me like getting chapped lips and all that
bacteria getting in those open wounds and multiplying,
1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,523,1026,2052,4102,8204,16408, 32816, 64,632, and that's in only a minute
or two. Wonder where I can get some salt, I could go to the restaurant and....borrow...some salt. If
only I had brought my Clorseptic. I really like that Cherry flavor more than the original. Sally
showed me how to inhale the salt water through my nose, so that I can bathe my sinuses and stop that
rapidly growing bacteria in my nose and throat. It's really hard for me. I gag and start to drive
heave. Man, if that happens
Wait, Oz. Stop this mental chatter. Okay, okay. Calm. Calm Breathe. Calm. But what happens if I'm
too calm and relax and don't hear the alarm clock go off. I know. Oh. hello Operator. Can I get a
5:00 am wake up. And then can you call me back at 5:15 to make sure I haven't overslept. I remember
Vic Ryder the night before the Honolulu. We drank too much beer and he missed the start of the race.
Oh, and I remember that I went out too fast and I promised myself that it was to be a training run
for the San Diego Marathon. Damn, Kip caught me at 21 and said she wouldn't wait for me if I didn't
keep up with her. Boy did I feel bad. Gotta remember to go out slow. Go out slow. Go out slow. But
not too slow. No don't start doubting now. Remember. Go out slow. Go out slow.
That feels better. Damn forgot to look and see what sports drink they have on the course. Man I
loved it in the days of ol' Bill Gookin and his ERG. Forget, oh, it's Electrolyte Replacement....was
the G for Glycogen. Maybe it was something else. Anyway it was just GookinAide. That stuff I had at
mile 12 in the last marathon was so syrupy, I was sick to my stomach for the next three miles. Then
that dumb guy that was yelling out "Water" and I dumped the stupid drink over my head.
Damn, Oz, you're carboloaded and ready to go. You've finished your dinner early so you can have your
proverbial big dump early. So get up walk out the door and go to the Pasta Party and be distracted
by a few thousand other people who can take your mind off your marathon. The laughter from watching
all the hyperactivity of the mind leaking out from the carboloaded body and brain will calm you
down. Go and enjoy the stories and the experience knowing that many of those people think that the
Pasta as the last meal before the Marathon will make a difference. Nothing like running a marathon
on an empty bowel. Remember you're going there to meet people. No need to share any folklore or
teach or tell people what they need to do.
That's better. Damn, this elevator seems a bit jerky. I hope it doesn't stop between floors. I could
be trapped in here for hours and not get a good nights sleep. But wait, Kevin McCarey did a marathon
under 2:20 with minimal or no sleep. So don't worry about it. I hope I packed my favorite racing
T-shirt. I know I put it on the bed...
Hi, I Jim O'Leary from Chicago, looks like you're going to the Pasta Party. Mind if I tag along. Yo,
Jim glad to have you tag along. I'm Ozzie Gontang, here from San Diego. Are you set for tomorrow?
Well come to think of it, Ozzie, I was feeling a little worried about...
The above is fictitious and has no relationship or bearing to anyone living or dead. Sure! And the
pope's not Catholic.
The Day Before the Marathon: Understanding and Living ADHD
c. 2001 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D.
In the late 70's, the depletion phase was standard operating procedure. The idea being to super
saturate regarding carboloading. Ability to store 1.2 to 1.4 times more glycogen were the numbers
batted around.
After the Sunday run until Wednesday, we would go high protein and minimal to no carbos. By
Wednesday a 6 to 8 mile depletion run was truly an experience of running the Bataan Death March. My
body remembers the experience of being carbo depleted and the feeling of not being able of going
on...let alone run a marathon in 4 days.
After that is was a carbo gorging for a day and a half to two days.
Problems that might occur with the fanatical approach to depletion
1. From keytosis and not enough water taken during this period:
a. resistance down: colds, other bacteria invade
b. muscle injury or soreness from dehydration
c. high level of irritability
d. negative mental state about being able to run a mile let alone a marathon.
e. bad breath
In the late 70's moderation and common sense entered the scene.
Yo, by cutting back on your running and eating regular and drinking enough fluids to be well
hydrated, you'll carboload without the pain and minimize chances of injury and illness.
I realized that by eating normally for the last 3 days and hydrating well, that the energy I ran on
was what was stored on Thursday and Friday for my Sunday marathon. How sensible.
I got into eating an early dinner of high bulk: romaine and leafy lettuce (not iceberg lettuce),
cabbage, veggies, whole grain rolls or bread and a little chicken or fish. Then I'd go to the pasta
bash to hang out and get into the spirit and get energized by the spirit of my fellow
marathoners...and just hang out and socialize - as I was already hyper from 2 or 3 days of minimal
to no running. At these times I picked up a lot of folklore, and realized before it became a
diagnosis that everyone of these marathoners or marathoners-to-be could be diagnosed as full blown
Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disordered (ADHD).
It was all that pent up energy waiting to be released and having no outlet except talking and
nervousness and apprehension and worry and anxiety and thinking and thinking and thinking and
thinking about thinking and wondering and creating a million scenarios to worry about, fret, and
fear. Fear of coming up with a pain or an injury somewhere in the marathon, like what happens if it
occurs before the half marathon and it's all due to going out to slow, but if I go out too slow, how
will I make up those 2 or three minutes, and oh my gawd, I heard about the guy who forgot his shoes
because he was so nervous and the woman who forgot her running shorts and had to buy a new pair and
didn't wash them and they cut the hell out of her inside thighs and she didn't make her Boston
qualifying time, and I'd better be careful to not put too much Vasaline on and between my toes as
I've heard that the Vasaline creates a barrier and won't allow the moisture on my feet to be easily
evaporated and my feet will get soft and blister more easily, and **** I forgot to put the piece of
duct tape on the bottom of my sorbothene inserts so they won't slip forward like they usually do,
and if that happens at mile 18 and I stop to fit them, I could get a cramp just like Steve got when
he bent over to tie his shoe and he had to limp in the last 8 miles.
Wait Ozzie, Breathe, That's right Breathe. Feel better now. Wait, take another breath. Hmmmm, throat
feels a little raw. Wonder if I getting a sore throat. That's all I need. If I'm not hydrated
enough, my mucous membrane in my throat and nose is drier. But my pee's clear the 6 times I've peed
in the last 45 minutes. I remember someone picturing it to me like getting chapped lips and all that
bacteria getting in those open wounds and multiplying,
1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,523,1026,2052,4102,8204,16408, 32816, 64,632, and that's in only a minute
or two. Wonder where I can get some salt, I could go to the restaurant and....borrow...some salt. If
only I had brought my Clorseptic. I really like that Cherry flavor more than the original. Sally
showed me how to inhale the salt water through my nose, so that I can bathe my sinuses and stop that
rapidly growing bacteria in my nose and throat. It's really hard for me. I gag and start to drive
heave. Man, if that happens
Wait, Oz. Stop this mental chatter. Okay, okay. Calm. Calm Breathe. Calm. But what happens if I'm
too calm and relax and don't hear the alarm clock go off. I know. Oh. hello Operator. Can I get a
5:00 am wake up. And then can you call me back at 5:15 to make sure I haven't overslept. I remember
Vic Ryder the night before the Honolulu. We drank too much beer and he missed the start of the race.
Oh, and I remember that I went out too fast and I promised myself that it was to be a training run
for the San Diego Marathon. Damn, Kip caught me at 21 and said she wouldn't wait for me if I didn't
keep up with her. Boy did I feel bad. Gotta remember to go out slow. Go out slow. Go out slow. But
not too slow. No don't start doubting now. Remember. Go out slow. Go out slow.
That feels better. Damn forgot to look and see what sports drink they have on the course. Man I
loved it in the days of ol' Bill Gookin and his ERG. Forget, oh, it's Electrolyte Replacement....was
the G for Glycogen. Maybe it was something else. Anyway it was just GookinAide. That stuff I had at
mile 12 in the last marathon was so syrupy, I was sick to my stomach for the next three miles. Then
that dumb guy that was yelling out "Water" and I dumped the stupid drink over my head.
Damn, Oz, you're carboloaded and ready to go. You've finished your dinner early so you can have your
proverbial big dump early. So get up walk out the door and go to the Pasta Party and be distracted
by a few thousand other people who can take your mind off your marathon. The laughter from watching
all the hyperactivity of the mind leaking out from the carboloaded body and brain will calm you
down. Go and enjoy the stories and the experience knowing that many of those people think that the
Pasta as the last meal before the Marathon will make a difference. Nothing like running a marathon
on an empty bowel. Remember you're going there to meet people. No need to share any folklore or
teach or tell people what they need to do.
That's better. Damn, this elevator seems a bit jerky. I hope it doesn't stop between floors. I could
be trapped in here for hours and not get a good nights sleep. But wait, Kevin McCarey did a marathon
under 2:20 with minimal or no sleep. So don't worry about it. I hope I packed my favorite racing
T-shirt. I know I put it on the bed...
Hi, I Jim O'Leary from Chicago, looks like you're going to the Pasta Party. Mind if I tag along. Yo,
Jim glad to have you tag along. I'm Ozzie Gontang, here from San Diego. Are you set for tomorrow?
Well come to think of it, Ozzie, I was feeling a little worried about...
The above is fictitious and has no relationship or bearing to anyone living or dead. Sure! And the
pope's not Catholic.
In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
Clinic, est. 1975
Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
"John G. Lyng" <Lyngj@Hotmail.com> wrote:
>You are invited to read my article about the secret weapon of the 70's marathon runner.
>
>http://members.rogers.com/longboatexpress/
Already been good replies on the depletion/loading thing. I have no serious "wall" problems since I
started carbo-loading. I don't do the depletion part because of several studies showing that the
gain, though real enough, was not sufficient to outweigh the risks (tiredness, digestion problems,
irritability, insomnia, "fragility" of tendons...), as compared to simply carbo-loading.
That said, our late coach believed in full "scandinavian dissociated diet" depletion/loading for his
important races (World&European championships, Olympic selections...). He mentioned however that it
this type of preparation became a distinct *disadvantage* if weather on race day was considerably
warmer than average.
I don't remember the reason behind this adverse effect, but it was confirmed for him and a running
partner in Rotterdam 2002. The partner (30-something y.o. Marocan, ex international swimmer) was
aiming at 4'/km => 2:48ish but only just managed to make it in under 3h. In training and pre-big-day
test races, he was consistently faster than me, with a 35' 10k and 1:19 half-marathon PBs. He was
easily "worth" 2:48...
For the fasting part of the article, it seems to me (according to research on the effects of fasting
on physical performance) in established cultures - you advance the link with going into battle - is
entirely to do with mental preparation, and nothing to do with a direct physiological preparation
for endurance.
And hand-to-hand battle appears more akin to rugby or soccer (but not American football; the pauses
while the armour-plated lads freshen their make-up are far too long to resemble a decent battle :-).
Well, that is of course if you're actually fighting a bit and not spending more time running as far
away as possible, which I would certainly be doing :->
The endurance part of war is what happens between battles. Wasn't it Napoleon who said that "An army
marches on it's stomach". No sign of fasting for endurance there. On the contrary.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:28:02 -0400, Patrick <paro@ic.sunysb.edu> wrote:
><MJuric> wrote in message news:3f8dbe23.194760357@news.choiceone.net...
>> On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:49:32 GMT, "John G. Lyng" <Lyngj@Hotmail.com>
>(edit)
>>
>> A few questions here.
>>
>> 1. You mention in the paper that gluconeogenesis is fat burning. I do believe that that is an
>> incorrect statement. I believe that gluconeogenesis is the process of creating glucose.
>
>Correct. "Fat burning" is called fatty acid oxidation.
>
>> I also believe that fat cannot be directly converted thru gluconeogenesis to glucose.
>
>Correct again, however, the end product of fatty acid oxidation, Acetyl-CoA is a direct regulator
>of gluconeogenesis. Pyruvate, the end product of glycolysis (glucose burning) has two fates. It can
>either be a substrate for gluconeogenesis, or it can be converted to Acetyl-CoA, a substrate for
>the TCA cycle. The TCA cycle is a process that produces high energy molecules. Pyruvate's fate is
>determined by the presence of activated enzymes. If the enzyme pyruvate carboxylase (PC) is
>activated, pyruvate is shuttled into gluconeogenesis. If pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH) is activated,
>pyruvate is shuttled into the TCA cycle. If the concentration of Acetyl-CoA is high, PC is
>activated and PDH is inhibited. This condition favors gluconeogenesis over glycolysis. In this
>sense, increased fat burning (resulting in an increased concentration of Acetyl Co-A) directly
>upregulates gluconeogenesis.
>
>(edit)
>>
>> Here's a link on gluconeogenesis.
>>
>> http://www.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/gluconeogenesis.html
>>
>> You'll notice very little has to do with fat.
>>
>
>If you go up one level in this heiarchy you'll find links to the TCA cycle, fatty acid oxidation
>and how fat burning is directly connected to gluconeogenesis.
>
>http://www.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/
>
>
>> I'll also dig up some of the info on Carb depletion and post them in a follow up.
>>
>
>Thanks Matt. I haven't looked at the original poster's link. I just wanted to respond to some of
>your comments on his link.
>
>Patrick
>
In follow up as promised. Most of this information taken form "Lore of running" by Noakes. I
believe teh original poster was speaking of teh study by Jonas Bergrstom 1967. This study
took three groups. A) Excercise to Exhastion Day -3 High fat/protein low carb thru 0 day
Excersise to Exahustion again on 0 day and then ate 90% high carb thru day 7 B) Same as
group but with workouts on -1 & 0 C) Same except one workout on day 0 only. Apparently group
A faired teh best with 3X normal Glycogen levels and Group B adn I believe C at only 2X
normal. The catch however was the original subjects were not trained athletes at all. Thus
teh original glycogen levels were well below those of a trained athlete. Later studies,
W.M.Sherman 1981, Blom 1987a, studied the depletion diet and found no significant effect on
athletes and Blom "Was unable to find any "supercompensation"" Noakes later writes that
there is probably no benefit to the elite or well trained athlete. Some effect may be
avaialble to teh non trained or lesser trained. IMO running to exahustion 7 days prior to a
26.2 or greater run is simply asking for a bad race. This alone would overide any benefit I
may gain from a little extra glycogen. Besides we have aid stations for a reason. Gatorade
my friend Gatorade...
~Matt
Ozzie Gontang <gontang215@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Problems that might occur with the fanatical approach to depletion
>
>1. From keytosis and not enough water taken during this period:
> a. resistance down: colds, other bacteria invade
> b. muscle injury or soreness from dehydration
> c. high level of irritability
> d. negative mental state about being able to run a mile let alone a marathon.
> e. bad breath
f) hydration difficulties in hot weather: cf Rotterdam 2002 anecdote mentioned elsewhere
Anders Lustig wrote:
> globaldisc@aol.com (Globaldisc) wrote in message
> news:<20031015095900.15549.00000741@mb-m28.aol.com>...
>
>
>>1. I've never heard of a M training program that called for a 16 mile run a week before race day.
>> Most I've seen call for a run of this distance to be > no closer than 2 weeks plus...away/out
>> from race day.
>
>
> One reason for this is that elite training programs can be rather different from the programs for
> the common man (and thereīs probably as much, if not more, variation between the various elite
> programs a between, say, those of Galloway and Chauvelier...).
>
> If youīve been doing >100 miles for years and have daily access to massage and physiotherapy, it
> will be a whole different cup of tea to run 16miles or 30km + 2x2km hard seven days before your
> marathon:-)
Benji Durden's Marathon schedule has you doing a slow 2 hour run the Sunday(assuming the race is on
Sunday) before the race and another
1:30 the Wednesday before. These slow runs are primarily for carbo depletion. This program is for
those not necessary elite but very aggressive. This two hour run could be 16 miles if your normal
race pace in in the 5 min/mile range. It's all relative.
I part of Durden's schedule that I liked and adopted after a few marathons was going long two weeks
in row and then an easier effort like a 5/10K race on the third week. Again, not suggested for the
first time marathoner.
--
Doug Freese dfreeseS@NOBShvc.rr.com
One can also review Bussau's 2002 paper on a one day loading protocol. Look up the reference
at PubMed.
"Dot" <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message
news:rwsjb.181131$0v4.13899761@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Anders Lustig wrote: The latest
> > version has it that a session of as little as 20min brisk
> > + 20min hard will do, but AFAIK this isnīt backed up by studies like the former two are.
> >
> You might take a look at Muscle Glycogen Resgynthsis after Short Term High Intensity Exercise and
> Resistance Exercise, Sports Medicine 21:98-118. 1996.
>
> Rapid Carbohydrate Loading after a Short Bout of Near Maximal-Intensity Exercis. Medicine and
> Science in Sports and Exercies 34(6): 980-986. 2002.
>
> I haven't looked at either but they are cited in Great Glycogen Without Grueling Glucose Gluttony:
> New Carb Strategy Has What it Takes to Help you Perform Better. Running Research News 18(5):
> 1,8-10. Owen Anderson. June-July 2002.
>
> The studies were done at Dept of Human Movement and Exercise Science at U of Western Australia.
>
>
> Highlights for 24-hr plan that could be done 2 or 3 days before event:
>
> 1. Start eating carbs as soon as possible after finishing pre-race
exercise.
>
> 2. Consume high-glycemic-index foods during 24-hr period.
>
> 3. Once you have completed your warm-up, perform 3 min burst (see below), and then cool down, do
> not exercise again during the subsequent 24-hr period.
>
> The 3-min burst: 5 min warmup, 150 sec at 130% VO2max, then all out 30-sec sprint (don't hesitate
> between these). Lactate levels on athletes were 21.9mM/l. Following a cool-down, each began 24-hr,
> high-carb eating plan, during which they ingested 12 g relatively high-glycemic index carbs per kg
> of lean body mass. Ingestion started within 20 min after end of exercises. 80% of carbs came from
> Polycose, a matltoextrose-rich drink.
>
> They used muscle biopsies, not race performance, as indicator if I'm reading it correctly.
>
> No, I haven't tried it. Just contributing some literature.
>
> Caveat: I just hit the highlights. Reading the original articles - or at least Owen Anderson's
> full summary - are probably worth the time to see caliber of study athletes, etc. More than I'm
> going to type :) Anderson's article also highlights some carb loading schemes developed back in
> the 60s (Swedish) and 80s (US).
>
> Dot
>
> --
> "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
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