race report -- Le Grizz 50M

[Dieshooter]

Le Grizz, a 50-mile race, is run the second weekend of October in Hungry Horse, Montana, which is
pretty far from anywhere, but the trip is well worth it. The race is super low-key, only 73 entrants
this year. The course is spectacular and simple, drive 50 miles out from the town of Hungry Horse
(near Glacier Natl. Park, western montana) and then run back in. The first 36 miles are on gravel
forest service roads, the last 14 is on paved road.

The scenery is awesome. you're running along the east side of the Hungry Horse resevoir, and
the view of the western side is amazing: think, Busch Beer commercial. Big, jagged mountains
capped in snow.

Temp. was about 33 degrees at the start, warming to about 50 or so at midday, then back down a tad
by the end of the race. Overcast, no rain, but some slightly muddy spots from earlier rains. Aid
stations are far apart (the first is at the 12-mile mark) so if you're running it alone, bring water
bottles or a hydration pack. Most people had a crew, the entire course is crew accessible, so they
can drive ahead a couple miles and meet you at regular intervals with food and drink.

Terrain is up and down and up and down and up and down ... lots and lots of hills. None too bad, but
so many of them you just sort of have to give in and roll with them.

Cut-offs are liberal enough so that most can finish, and race director has a reputation for
extending the deadline for hours and hours if someone is truly trying and is making forward
progress. The other runners are great people, very friendly and full of advice. Most of it good.

There are plenty of hotels nearby, but remember, if you drive to the starting line, when you finish
you'll have to find someone willing to make the 100-mile/3-hour round trip back to the starting line
to get your car. It's best to park at the finish line and hitch a ride to the start, or book a trip
on the van from the host motel.

Website is www.cheetahherders.com

Anyway, a fun run. Thought I'd add this in so it's archived should someone go looking for info on
the event someday.

[Globaldisc]

I've often dream of the notion of running in the wilderness....fresh air...natural terrain..charming
Hemmingway-esque allure of it all. However I quickly snap out of that dream when I think I'm just
part of the food chain should should I run alone on some old rustic back-trail in the woods.

How many stories do I need to read about wilderness runners being attacked by bears, cougars, or
mountain lions before I say, "no thanks"? ONE. And who can I blame?...I'm the one in the animals
domain...the animals turf. The animal is just being an animal....I might stumble between a mother
and her cubs, a starving animal...and running with a dog is no help. Heck, you can still be stalked,
preyed on, and attacked as this woman did: 11 September. 31-year-old Gwyn Stacey, was attacked by a
cougar as she jogged with her dog between 6 and 7 p.m. near Summit Lake, just west of Olympia,
Washington. She ran into the cougar, which she estimated to weigh 80 or 90 pounds, at the top of the
peak on her routine run. It was on top of a rock outcropping. It disappeared after a short time
during which she yelled and waved her arms. After backing away for a short distance, she began
running back out, and it stalked her along the way, eventually running ahead of her and waiting for
her. She saw it in some bushes just before it attacked her, giving her a chance to dodge it, so that
the lion only scratched her arm with a single claw and leaped over her and ran off. It made only one
pass at her, and it showed no interest in her medium sized dog at any time during the stalking.
__

She was lucky! However the below jogger was not! Do not read the below true story if you dislike
cringing and want to continue running in the wilderness.

April 1994, a woman named Barbara Schoener was attacked by an 82-pound female cougar. The cat
crushed Schoener’s skull, then dragged the hapless jogger 300 feet and devoured her face and most
of her internal organs. Fish and Game officials hunted the cougar down and killed it, and in doing
so provoked the wrath of local biocentrists.

Running in the wilderness?...no thanks. I stick to the safe and secure confines of New York
City. Yes, I'd rather get hit by a taxi cab and take my chances in the ER than get eaten alive
by an animal.

Andrew....

[Layne Wallace]

On 17 Oct 2003 14:33:57 -0700, dieshooter wrote:

>Le Grizz, a 50-mile race, is run the second weekend of October in Hungry Horse, Montana, which is
>pretty far from anywhere, but the trip is well worth it. The race is super low-key, only 73
>entrants this year. The course is spectacular and simple, drive 50 miles out from the town of
>Hungry Horse (near Glacier Natl. Park, western montana) and then run back in. The first 36 miles
>are on gravel forest service roads, the last 14 is on paved road.
>
[drool]

This does sound like a nice run. You also did a quite a job. I know you keep saying that you aren't
that fast but your pace over this terrain was pretty nice. I'd be happy with that pace over a flat
marathon. :-) Lessee here, you did a couple of marathons and then jumped to a 50 miler (and did it
very well). Hmmm <G>. Very nice report. Great pics on their Web site.

Did you find the gravel roads tiresome (as opposed to a more typical trail)? And, did you have a
support crew or did you just wing it?

Thanks, Layne

-------------------------------------------------------
The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

[Ee]

While your stories are quite amusing, they are worthless on face value. The chances of being
attacked by a wild animal approaches your chances of accidently jumping out of a plane, they are
astronomical. You are a wuss.

On 18 Oct 2003 13:37:15 GMT, globaldisc@aol.com (Globaldisc) wrote:

>I've often dream of the notion of running in the wilderness....fresh air...natural
>terrain..charming Hemmingway-esque allure of it all. However I quickly snap out of that dream when
>I think I'm just part of the food chain should should I run alone on some old rustic back-trail in
>the woods.
>
>How many stories do I need to read about wilderness runners being attacked by bears, cougars, or
>mountain lions before I say, "no thanks"? ONE. And who can I blame?...I'm the one in the animals
>domain...the animals turf. The animal is just being an animal....I might stumble between a mother
>and her cubs, a starving animal...and running with a dog is no help. Heck, you can still be
>stalked, preyed on, and attacked as this woman did: 11 September. 31-year-old Gwyn Stacey, was
>attacked by a cougar as she jogged with her dog between 6 and 7 p.m. near Summit Lake, just west of
>Olympia, Washington. She ran into the cougar, which she estimated to weigh 80 or 90 pounds, at the
>top of the peak on her routine run. It was on top of a rock outcropping. It disappeared after a
>short time during which she yelled and waved her arms. After backing away for a short distance, she
>began running back out, and it stalked her along the way, eventually running ahead of her and
>waiting for her. She saw it in some bushes just before it attacked her, giving her a chance to
>dodge it, so that the lion only scratched her arm with a single claw and leaped over her and ran
>off. It made only one pass at her, and it showed no interest in her medium sized dog at any time
>during the stalking.
>__
>
>She was lucky! However the below jogger was not! Do not read the below true story if you dislike
>cringing and want to continue running in the wilderness.
>
>April 1994, a woman named Barbara Schoener was attacked by an 82-pound female cougar. The cat
>crushed Schoener’s skull, then dragged the hapless jogger 300 feet and devoured her face and most
>of her internal organs. Fish and Game officials hunted the cougar down and killed it, and in doing
>so provoked the wrath of local biocentrists.
>
>Running in the wilderness?...no thanks. I stick to the safe and secure confines of New York
>City. Yes, I'd rather get hit by a taxi cab and take my chances in the ER than get eaten alive
>by an animal.
>
>Andrew....

[Bv]

he/she/it are obviously one of those paranoids who don't go out after dark because "they might
get me"...

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:06:32 GMT, ee <Winnerzee@Hypeeerdome.net> wrote:

>While your stories are quite amusing, they are worthless on face value. The chances of being
>attacked by a wild animal approaches your chances of accidently jumping out of a plane, they are
>astronomical. You are a wuss.
>
>On 18 Oct 2003 13:37:15 GMT, globaldisc@aol.com (Globaldisc) wrote:
>
>>I've often dream of the notion of running in the wilderness....fresh air...natural
>>terrain..charming Hemmingway-esque allure of it all. However I quickly snap out of that dream when
>>I think I'm just part of the food chain should should I run alone on some old rustic back-trail in
>>the woods.
>>
>>How many stories do I need to read about wilderness runners being attacked by bears, cougars, or
>>mountain lions before I say, "no thanks"? ONE. And who can I blame?...I'm the one in the animals
>>domain...the animals turf. The animal is just being an animal....I might stumble between a mother
>>and her cubs, a starving animal...and running with a dog is no help. Heck, you can still be
>>stalked, preyed on, and attacked as this woman did: 11 September. 31-year-old Gwyn Stacey, was
>>attacked by a cougar as she jogged with her dog between 6 and 7 p.m. near Summit Lake, just west
>>of Olympia, Washington. She ran into the cougar, which she estimated to weigh 80 or 90 pounds, at
>>the top of the peak on her routine run. It was on top of a rock outcropping. It disappeared after
>>a short time during which she yelled and waved her arms. After backing away for a short distance,
>>she began running back out, and it stalked her along the way, eventually running ahead of her and
>>waiting for her. She saw it in some bushes just before it attacked her, giving her a chance to
>>dodge it, so that the lion only scratched her arm with a single claw and leaped over her and ran
>>off. It made only one pass at her, and it showed no interest in her medium sized dog at any time
>>during the stalking.
>>__
>>
>>She was lucky! However the below jogger was not! Do not read the below true story if you dislike
>>cringing and want to continue running in the wilderness.
>>
>>April 1994, a woman named Barbara Schoener was attacked by an 82-pound female cougar. The cat
>>crushed Schoener’s skull, then dragged the hapless jogger 300 feet and devoured her face and most
>>of her internal organs. Fish and Game officials hunted the cougar down and killed it, and in doing
>>so provoked the wrath of local biocentrists.
>>
>>Running in the wilderness?...no thanks. I stick to the safe and secure confines of New York
>>City. Yes, I'd rather get hit by a taxi cab and take my chances in the ER than get eaten alive
>>by an animal.
>>
>>Andrew....

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <20031018093715.08072.00000788@mb-m11.aol.com>, Globaldisc wrote:

> Running in the wilderness?...no thanks. I stick to the safe and secure confines of New York
> City. Yes, I'd rather get hit by a taxi cab and take my chances in the ER than get eaten alive
> by an animal.

It's a good thing that you'd prefer that, because I bet that you're more likely to get hit by a cab
than someone running in the wilderness is to get eaten by a cougar. How many runners are hit by cars
every year, and how many runners are eaten by cougars every year ?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Doug Freese]

Globaldisc wrote:

> Running in the wilderness?...no thanks. I stick to the safe and secure confines of New York
> City. Yes, I'd rather get hit by a taxi cab and take my chances in the ER than get eaten alive
> by an animal.

Spoken by a true chicken **** city boy. :) I'd take my chances in the woods any day before
traversing the streets of New York. If your concerned about some bad animal biting your skinny ass,
you're safe on the East coast where there is little to nothing to harm you. You a have a hell of lot
more documented bad acts in Central Park alone the the entire Appalachian Mountains.

Take a run in the woods and watch your angst melt away. Wussy! ;)

--
Doug Freese dfreeseS@NOBShvc.rr.com

[Wildlife]

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 09:37:52 GMT, Doug Freese <dfreese@NOBShvc.rr.com> wrote:

>Spoken by a true chicken **** city boy. :) I'd take my chances in the woods any day before
>traversing the streets of New York. If your concerned about some bad animal biting your skinny ass,
>you're safe on the East coast where there is little to nothing to harm you. >

Wrong again numbnutz! Bears, boars, cougars, wolves, moose, rattlesnakes (any relation to you?) and
a variety of lesser dangers.

>You a have a hell of lot more documented bad acts in Central Park alone the the entire Appalachian
>Mountains.

[Wildlife]

On 19 Oct 2003 13:16:13 GMT, globaldisc@aol.com (Globaldisc) wrote:

>ok,
>
>you guys/gals should know i'm just stirring up some spirited conversation. i'd run in the woods in
>an area known to be traveled by humans...w/some frequency. hence I would run in some parts of
>Yellow Stone and not in others.
>
>
>raw wilderness? on for example a fire trail road, service road and hiking paths in areas known to
>be inhabited by cougars/mountain lions?

Whut RU, retarded? If they were known to inhabit those areas nobody'd run there.

> i don't know if i could comfortably run alone in these areas. i'm originally from northern
> california

(Faerie boi)

[The Trailrunner]

Globaldisc wrote:

> running in an area of yosemite that's undeveloped (if you can find one...good luck!)...and
> inhabited by cougars and mountain lions....well..i would think those animals have seen humans and
> have formulated some fear response or "back off" response...etc. but i bet there a whole lot of
> wilderness areas with great trails, fire & service roads.... inhabited by cougars/mountains that
> have not necessarily came across humans and have no sense of automatic fear.

You've got it bass ackwards. Animals that frequent populated areas (particularly in parks) are
acclimated to people and have generally lost all fear of them while animals in the back country will
usually turn tail at the first whiff of a human.

--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of The Diablo Valley *Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/6016/

[Www]

On 19 Oct 2003 22:36:56 GMT, globaldisc@aol.com (Globaldisc) wrote:

>You sure about that Trailrunner? My understanding is an animal that does not know any better will
>look at you as potential predator but ALSO a potential food source and just part of the food chain.
>The animal will check you out, size you up,...and quite possible take you on, especially if you
>ramble into their territory (as did that Bear recently when the Bear ate those two people, one who
>was a Bear Expert). I believe most of the cougars and lion mountains that have attacked joggers
>have been 80-100 .lbs animals that have attacked disproportionately women joggers. I've also come
>across reports that in some cases these women were menstruating at the time...(explaining the
>disporprotionate amount of attacks on women vs. men) .and hence quite the opposite of what you have
>said...these animals get a whiff of a mentruating woman and are attracted to it as a possible food
>source/kill of some sort. It's well established and documented that menstruating women have to take
>particular precautions when out camping in the wilderness as they will indeed attract wild
>animals....

Maybe they were just horny, and got carried away?

[Dot]

The Trailrunner wrote:
>
>
> Globaldisc wrote:
>
whole lot of wilderness areas
>> with great trails, fire & service roads.... inhabited by cougars/mountains that have not
>> necessarily came across humans and have no sense of automatic fear.

Andrew,
1. Check definition of "wilderness" = area largely unaffected by humans, roadless, etc.
2. How do you think the roads and trails got there?

>
>
> You've got it bass ackwards. Animals that frequent populated areas (particularly in parks) are
> acclimated to people and have generally lost all fear of them while animals in the back country
> will usually turn tail at the first whiff of a human.

Trailrunner,

I agree! That's been close to my experience, although all my experience is with black and brown
bears and moose, not cougars - although I suspect cougars, being carnivores, may be like polar
bears. As a polar bear researcher put it "polar bears are carnivores. end of story" They aren't out
picking berries like their omnivore cousins, black and brown bears.

Bears near population centers and parks can become vandals as they lose their fear of humans. Some
end up getting relocated. I've forgotten what the bear and moose population within Anchorage is.
(note: that's "within") Most of my bear encounters on trails or in remote areas (while working, not
running) have been, as you indicate, their rear end headed the other direction and one cross-trails
encounter that scared the bejeebers out of both of us (I felt a need to back up to draw my bear
spray, which I didn't need or use).

But other encounters have included one charge by a sow and 2 cubs when I was too quiet for too long
then made noise and a charge by 2 bears maybe 300m away. I had just gotten out of jeep so got back
in and drove 2 ridges over before I even stopped to think about an area to work in that day - after
making *lots* of noise in the new area. I found a carcass in the first area a couple days later so I
apparently spooked them on a kill - the absolutely worst case as far as I've been able to tell.

The two runners that were killed several years ago had run apparently too "close" to a kill that
they probably didn't know was even there.

The flip side is that bears got in the middle of a trail race this year delaying some runners - one
where it was hard to get off to side because of vegetation or cliffs - and apparently routinely
watch another one of the longer mountain running races (about 24-26 miles, but nobody's really sure,
and you get to pick your own route through some areas)

While most animals are going to ignore us, we need to remember that they *are* wild animals. In some
recent events up here (euphemism), some one was unwilling to acknowledge that bears were wild, and
got his wish to be honored to be part of bear scat. Unfortunately, two bears also had to
die. Several years ago an elderly gentleman was stomped to death on doorsteps of university building
in Anchorage by a moose that students had been harassing earlier in the day.

This article seems like an apt summary of things:
http://www.adn.com/outdoors/story/4199329p-4211632c.html

Like the article says, deaths by bear maulings make front page news because they *are* so rare. And
they usually involve something stupid on the human part.

This is a quote from the Letterman show 2/21/2001 "When Letterman asked whether the bears might
someday kill him, Treadwell said he feels safer living among Alaska's grizzlies than jogging through
Central Park in New York City."
http://www.alaska.com/akcom/western/activity/story/1838247p-819757c.html

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

[Dot]

dieshooter wrote:

> Le Grizz, a 50-mile race, is run the second weekend of October in Hungry Horse, Montana, which is
> pretty far from anywhere, but the trip is well worth it. The race is super low-key, only 73
> entrants this year.

Now, that's my idea of a race!

>
> The scenery is awesome. you're running along the east side of the Hungry Horse resevoir, and the
> view of the western side is amazing: think, Busch Beer commercial. Big, jagged mountains capped
> in snow.

I took a peak at some of the pictures on web site. Pretty nice scenery! Montana's one of my favorite
states - after Alaska, of course.

> Terrain is up and down and up and down and up and down ... lots and lots of hills. None too bad,
> but so many of them you just sort of have to give in and roll with them.

Sounds like a really nice course.

>
> Anyway, a fun run. Thought I'd add this in so it's archived should someone go looking for info on
> the event someday.

Sounds like you had a great time on a really nice course! Thanks for the report. Enjoy
your recovery.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

[Ed Amin]

Acutally there were two nearby Griz attacks within a couple weeks of the race. One was a bow hunter
who got too close to a mother and cubs and another in which two ladies were attacked in Glacier
Nat'l Park. If this wasn't enough to worry about (and I am not making this up) there was a Bigfoot
sighting the week before in nearby Martin City. But in all reality there is so much more traffic on
the road during the race that no self respecting bear would be anywhere near the road. Granted...
there are far more deaths due to cars or what have you, but this race is run in prime Grizzly
habitat and bear attacks are not uncommon at all in this area of Montana.

The scenery is spectacular and when you finally reach the dam and cross it with 3.3 miles to go it
is such an undescribable experience. The dam is awesome, nearly 1/2 mile across and 564 feet tall. I
don't quite understand the reason for the bushwack at the end. With about
1/4 mile to go you leave the road and go up a hill, there is not even a trail. It's only about 75
yards long but it is so steep you have to walk with your hands on your knees and grab bushes and
saplings to pull yourself up (note: don't grab anything with thorns as I did). The greasy chicken
at the end was both disgusting and delicious, I don't normally eat this stuff and it really upset
my stomach, but for some reason it really tasted good after the run. This year's shirt is a
collector item. It says "Le Griz 50 mile ultra Maraton", spell check technology has not yet reach
Montana. As a quite experienced marathoner I thought I more or less understood proper pacing. And
after the race sorta settled in after 10 or 15 miles I passed quite a few runners, but I also got
passed back by several of them late in the race. I should have added 30 sec/mile to my early pace
and I know it would have saved me at least 1 min/mile at the late stages. I finished in the top
15-20% of the field but I know that I can do much better with proper pace management.

As a side note, those ultra guys are kind of a wierd bunch. They are skinny and grizzled looking
with lots of gray in the beard and ratty clothes.

dieshooter@hotmail.com (dieshooter) wrote in message
news:<ae4b0a63.0310171333.60598b92@posting.google.com>...
> Le Grizz, a 50-mile race, is run the second weekend of October in Hungry Horse, Montana, which is
> pretty far from anywhere, but the trip is well worth it. The race is super low-key, only 73
> entrants this year. The course is spectacular and simple, drive 50 miles out from the town of
> Hungry Horse (near Glacier Natl. Park, western montana) and then run back in. The first 36 miles
> are on gravel forest service roads, the last 14 is on paved road.
>
> The scenery is awesome. you're running along the east side of the Hungry Horse resevoir, and the
> view of the western side is amazing: think, Busch Beer commercial. Big, jagged mountains capped
> in snow.
>
> Temp. was about 33 degrees at the start, warming to about 50 or so at midday, then back down a tad
> by the end of the race. Overcast, no rain, but some slightly muddy spots from earlier rains. Aid
> stations are far apart (the first is at the 12-mile mark) so if you're running it alone, bring
> water bottles or a hydration pack. Most people had a crew, the entire course is crew accessible,
> so they can drive ahead a couple miles and meet you at regular intervals with food and drink.
>
> Terrain is up and down and up and down and up and down ... lots and lots of hills. None too bad,
> but so many of them you just sort of have to give in and roll with them.
>
> Cut-offs are liberal enough so that most can finish, and race director has a reputation for
> extending the deadline for hours and hours if someone is truly trying and is making forward
> progress. The other runners are great people, very friendly and full of advice. Most of it good.
>
> There are plenty of hotels nearby, but remember, if you drive to the starting line, when you
> finish you'll have to find someone willing to make the 100-mile/3-hour round trip back to the
> starting line to get your car. It's best to park at the finish line and hitch a ride to the start,
> or book a trip on the van from the host motel.
>
> Website is www.cheetahherders.com
>
> Anyway, a fun run. Thought I'd add this in so it's archived should someone go looking for info on
> the event someday.

[Doug Freese]

Globaldisc wrote:

> Wussy?...Scaredy Pants?...Hey....I sometimes run in Central Park at midnight, alone. I am not
> kidding. And I've seen some pretty wild life on some of those runs.

You're lucky the party wasn't in your pants and against you wishes. ;) If they could catch you, you
might understand the term "giving up the booty." I'll take the black bears north of you in heartbeat
to central Park at midnight.

--
Doug Freese dfreeseS@NOBShvc.rr.com

[Tb]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:32:46 GMT, Doug Freese <dfreese@NOBShvc.rr.com> wrote:

>You're lucky the party wasn't in your pants and against you wishes.

Like a homely virgin like him wouldn't welcome being raped...

>;) If they could catch you, you might understand the term "giving up the booty."

maybe he could explain it to you.

> I'll take the black bears north of you in heartbeat to central Park at midnight.

Why? Are the black bears better hung?