Mail on Sunday

[Andy W]

Good to see Kate Hoey (ex sports minister) slagging off cyclists in the MoS today. Whilst I have
sympathy with the viewpoint that cyclists running red lights etc gives us all a bad name, this sort
of thing can only harden motorists attitudes.

And Hoey was objecting to cyclists not riding in cycle lanes (ever tried riding over a drain cover,
Ms Hoey?) and to cyclists 'who ride down the middle of the road and object when I sound my horn'
(perhaps they're turning right?).

[Andy W]

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/person/contactdetails/0,9309,-2458,00.html

Contact details for the mini-driving ex-sports supremo (just in case you fancied getting in touch).

"andy w" <andy@fattyandywiggans.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bmtudd$e4q$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Good to see Kate Hoey (ex sports minister) slagging off cyclists in the
MoS
> today. Whilst I have sympathy with the viewpoint that cyclists running
red
> lights etc gives us all a bad name, this sort of thing can only harden motorists attitudes.
>
> And Hoey was objecting to cyclists not riding in cycle lanes (ever tried riding over a drain
> cover, Ms Hoey?) and to cyclists 'who ride down the middle of the road and object when I sound my
> horn' (perhaps they're
turning
> right?).

[Ouch]

>Good to see Kate Hoey (ex sports minister) slagging off cyclists in the MoS today. Whilst I have
>sympathy with the viewpoint that cyclists running red lights etc gives us all a bad name, this sort
>of thing can only harden motorists attitudes.
>
>And Hoey was objecting to cyclists not riding in cycle lanes (ever tried riding over a drain cover,
>Ms Hoey?) and to cyclists 'who ride down the middle of the road and object when I sound my horn'
>(perhaps they're turning right?).
>

My understanding is that cyclists don't have to use cycle lanes. Isn't this correct?

[Andy W]

Nope - aprt from a very few isolated places where cycles aren't allowed on the road. But Hoey's
comments can only serve to reinforce some motorists' view that if a cyclist chooses not to (and
I've emailed her and pointed out that lanes are often full of rubbish and also have drain covers in
them which aren't much fun to ride over) then they're fair game and anything that happens is their
own fault.

<ouch> wrote in message news:9h25pvce1pnv8hl389lt2jlcejf050e2ka@4ax.com...
> >Good to see Kate Hoey (ex sports minister) slagging off cyclists in the
MoS
> >today. Whilst I have sympathy with the viewpoint that cyclists running
red
> >lights etc gives us all a bad name, this sort of thing can only harden motorists attitudes.
> >
> >And Hoey was objecting to cyclists not riding in cycle lanes (ever tried riding over a drain
> >cover, Ms Hoey?) and to cyclists 'who ride down the middle of the road and object when I sound my
> >horn' (perhaps they're
turning
> >right?).
> >
>
> My understanding is that cyclists don't have to use cycle lanes. Isn't this correct?

[John Hearns]

A quick search on their website foun da discussion board:

http://www.femail.co.uk/pages/standard/article.html?in_article_id=200212&in_page_id=25

[Just Zis Guy]

andy w wrote:

> Good to see Kate Hoey (ex sports minister) slagging off cyclists in the MoS

I was feeling belligerent so I sent an email, as below.

Right, I'll admit it, I didn't read your piece in the Mail on Sunday. I never read the Mail any
more, it's too much like the BNP's house rag. But I read a large selected quote from it, and I've
seen the quote on their discussion board. And I'm not happy.

As an MP you should know that red light jumping is very much the province of youths and London cycle
couriers - most adult cyclists have more sense. Youths as a group are not known for their slavish
devotion to the law - especially when they graduate from relatively harmless bikes to that most
dangerous of toys, the motor car.

And the 50% of cyclists the RAC claim jump red lights compares favourably to the 90% of drivers who
admit to speeding. Of course cyclists who jump red lights mainly endanger themselves, whereas
speeding drivers spread the danger around and transfer much of it onto vulnerable road users. The
truth is, if you ride a bike in a dangerous manner you end up dead sooner rather than later. If you
drive a car in a dangerous manner you are more likely to kill someone else.

No, the real problem with cyclists is one of envy. Drivers stuck in their mobile death greenhouses
burning expensive petrol and priceless time see the ability of cyclists to bypass congestion and
take control of their journey as an effront to their lifestyle choices. The driver knows that their
choice is fundamentally selfish, that the problems they experience are largely of their own making,
but they cover it with a whole raft of self-justifying excuses about the impracticality of using
more environmentally benign modes. And then a cyclist leaves them standing in the traffic.

Above all you should know that the hysterical Daily Mail anti-cyclist bigotry which you have helped
to fuel is a significant part of the car supremacist agenda which is responsible for the fact that
most large towns and cities these days are nigh-on impassable. Except on a bike, of course.

Yours,

Guy Chapman

--
Guy
===
WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk (http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk/)

[Dirtylitterboxo]

Ms Hoey stinks. It's not cyclists who kill some 3500 people every year on the roads. and injure
thousands more. Ms Hoey should be metaphorically shot.

Cheers, helen s

This is an invalid email adress to thwart spammers To get my correct email remove the dependency on
fame & fortune from h*$el*$$e**nd***$o$ts***i*$*$m**m$$o*n**s@$*$a$$o**l.c**$*$om$$

Any speeling mistakes are as a result of cats on the keybrrrdd

[Andy W]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <spamdump@chapmancentral.com> wrote in message
news:kvka61-krj.ln1@chapmancentral.demon.co.uk...
> andy w wrote:
>
> > Good to see Kate Hoey (ex sports minister) slagging off cyclists in the MoS
>
> I was feeling belligerent so I sent an email, as below.

I too was moved to write to the hurrying Ms Hoey. If we get a reply we should post them here.

"I write with regard to your article in today's Mail on Sunday.

You appear to regard cyclists as some sort of obstruction that stop you from whizzing around
London in your mini (very trendy, I'm sure). Have you ever considered that you as one who insists
on driving your little metal box into London are one of those who cause delays and congestion?
People who cycle to work should be applauded not slagged off in some crass 'get the motorists on
our side' stunt.

You state that cyclists should be forced to ride in cycle lanes where they are provided - can I
suggest that you try riding in a cycle lane before you begin pontificating? Cycle lanes are painted
by the kerb - the gutter is
(a) full of rubbish and (b) has grates and drain covers in it. If you've ever cycled you would
realise that riding across these things causes punctures and damage to your bike - so some of us
exercise our legal right as road users to cycle on the main cariageway when we feel it is safer
to do so. If that causes you to be held up for a few seconds then tough - my life is more
important than a few seconds of your time.

I was interested that you were careful to make the point that not all cyclists are 'lycra louts' -
but you must surely be aware that articles like yours will make the large number of motorists who
drive dangerously near cyclists feel justified in their behaviour. "It's alright - I might have
broken his legs but he was one of them lycra louts that Kate Hoey was on about."

If anyone wrote an article trying to smear an ethnic minority with such broad generalisations ("but
of course - there are some law abiding black people - they're not all crack dealers") there would be
an outcry - well I for one hope that you have lost your party the support of a large section of the
population - you've ceratinly lost mine.

Oh - and by the way - sounding your horn to tell someone to get out of the way is illegal."

[Peter B]

"John Hearns" <jhearns@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.10.19.13.59.56.246602@nospam.nospam...
> A quick search on their website foun da discussion board:
>
>
>
>
http://www.femail.co.uk/pages/standard/article.html?in_article_id=200212&in_ page_id=25

What pisses me off about that is this bit: "Do you agree with Kate Hoey? Do you think cyclists
regularly break the law and deliberately wind drivers up? Or, are car drivers to blame? Do they
think they own the road and show little regard for vunerable cyclists?"

HELLO! there are bad apples in both barrels!

Pete

[Ouch]

<snip snip>

> http://www.femail.co.uk/pages/standard/article.html?in_article_id=200212&in_page_id=25

What I don't understand is, why is it in 'femail.co.uk'? I'm not familiar with 'The Standard' (I
think that's where it's from) but unless I'm mistaken it's in the 'female section' of the paper.
What does it have to do with females that doesn't apply to males? I don't understand why it's in
this section.

Did I miss something?

[Paul Saunders]

I wonder if they get this kind of bigotry in France where I find drivers much more considerate than
here. The trouble also is that people who only drive cars slag off cyclists but cyclists who don't
drive do the same to car drivers. If you do both I think it makes you a bit more tolerant, but even
so some drivers piss me off when I'm cycling just as much as twats who ride bikes wthout lights at 6
oclock on these dark mornings. I also tow a caravan which must make me a really hated road user!!
Reminds me of the car ad where everyone hates everyone else "andy w"
<andy@fattyandywiggans.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:bmtudd$e4q$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Good to see Kate Hoey (ex sports minister) slagging off cyclists in the
MoS
> today. Whilst I have sympathy with the viewpoint that cyclists running
red
> lights etc gives us all a bad name, this sort of thing can only harden motorists attitudes.
>
> And Hoey was objecting to cyclists not riding in cycle lanes (ever tried riding over a drain
> cover, Ms Hoey?) and to cyclists 'who ride down the middle of the road and object when I sound my
> horn' (perhaps they're
turning
> right?).

[Simonb]

I chipped in too:

Dear Ms Hoey On hearing your objections to the behaviour of some cyclists in today's Mail on Sunday,
I feel driven to address the points you raised.

On the subject of cyclists running red lights; I couldn't agree more. This is clearly a very
dangerous activity. However, I would not be in any hurry to base my views on a survey carried out by
the RAC (an lobbying organization which in is taking an increasingly hard line against cyclists, no
doubt to appease its members).

I understand you object to cyclists who do not use cycle lanes. Most cyclists use the main
carriageway for quite reasonable safety reasons. Actually, it is our right under law (for the moment
at least). Most cycle lanes in the UK are of a very poor quality: full of glass and other detritus
thrown to the side of the road by other vehicles, not to mention drain grilles, potholes, deformed
tarmac and parked cars.

You mention cyclists who ride down the middle of the road. Might this be when they're overtaking
lines of stopped cars or traffic queued up at junctions? The UK highway code makes it quite clear
that vehicles must overtake on the right. No mention that cyclists should overtake on the inside.
Maybe cyclists should just join the back of the queue? This would make things much simpler for
motorists pestered my moving bicycles. This would be unacceptable to cyclists as bypassing lines of
traffic is one of the many benefits of we get from choosing not to drive.

If you are frustrated by cyclists who object when you sound your horn, the answer is simple: don't
sound your horn at cyclists! It's scary and off-putting. Please also be aware that in this country
it is illegal to sound your horn to make someone move out of your way.

For the last year and a half, I've been cycling to work, for the majority of my everyday journeys
and also for pleasure. When I returned to cycling, I rediscovered a sustainable, healthy and highly
enjoyable means of getting about. The public perception of cycling is of a highly dangerous activity
restricted to irresponsible "lycra louts" and lunatic-fringe environmentalists, which should
therefore be restricted to cycle paths in country parks safely away from public highways. This
perception is unfortunately gathering strength: bicycles today represent 1% of road traffic compared
with 37% in 1949.

It's a shame that someone in the public eye such as yourself should reinforce this misconception.

Regards

Simon Bennett

[One Step Beyond]

http://chat.femail.co.uk/femail/threadnonInd.jsp?forum=196&thread=9603722&me ssage=10128320

I seem to reacll that as our (ex) sports minister, she was only too keen to congratulate Jason
Quigly at the last Olympics and steal some of his thunder by saying Labour is comitted to reducing
congestion and that cycling is key

OSB

"John Hearns" <jhearns@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.10.19.13.59.56.246602@nospam.nospam...
> A quick search on their website foun da discussion board:
>
>
>
>
http://www.femail.co.uk/pages/standard/article.html?in_article_id=200212&in_ page_id=25

[Ian]

I too have dropped her an email as follows:

Dear Ms Hoey,

A colleague pointed your disparagement of cyclists in the Mail on Sunday, I am very disappointed
that someone who claims to be a representative of the public would choose to type cast all cyclists
and insult them as some sort of "look at me" staging post. I assume that if a Mini driver causes an
accident which kills someone then you are happy to be called a murderer? Your article serves to give
motorists cause to resent cyclists just because of their chosen mode of transport and the vast
majority of cyclists who are law abiding members of the public can now look forward to a little less
respect on the roads, thanks to your ignorant diatribe. As to using cycle lanes, the majority of
cyclists in London are going somewhere, and that somewhere is usually reached quicker and with less
distance travelled on the roads, cycle lanes are more often aimed at leisure cyclists and not
commuters, also on cycle lanes you have added hazards such as, pedestrians who walk along them
oblivious to all around them, strangely enough these people usually tell you to get on the road,
then there is the diabolical state of cycle lanes, poorly maintained and strewn with rubbish and
glass, perhaps your time would be better spent getting this government to take cycling seriously
rather than applying the same mentality to minority groups as the National Front do, after all your
attitude is advocating the disrespect of a group within society. Next time you are sat in a traffic
jam in London in your car belching out toxins into the environment and a cyclist whizzes past,
instead of getting all hateful and jealous and launching into another misplaced attack perhaps you
should consider doing your health and blood pressure a favour and get a bicycle, then at least you
can relate to another member of the public of which you are a servant, and your future comments can
be informed rather than pompous.

With best regards,

Ian Buck Trikes & Stuff

http://www.trikesandstuff.co.uk (http://www.trikesandstuff.co.uk/)

If I get a response I will be sure to let everyone know.

[Ouch]

<snip snip>
>much more considerate than here. The trouble also is that people who only drive cars slag off
>cyclists but cyclists who don't drive do the same to car drivers. If you do both I think it makes
>you a bit more tolerant, but even so some drivers piss me off when I'm cycling just as much as
>twats who ride bikes wthout lights at 6 oclock on these dark mornings. I also tow a caravan

Well said.

>which must make me a really hated road user!! Reminds me of the car ad where everyone hates
>everyone else

Reminds me that life should really be like in that Carlsberg advert where the hole they dig up is
used by everyone.

[One Step Beyond]

well said. OSB

"andy w" <andy@fattyandywiggans.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bmu8so$kiq$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Just zis Guy, you know?" <spamdump@chapmancentral.com> wrote in message
> news:kvka61-krj.ln1@chapmancentral.demon.co.uk...
> > andy w wrote:
> >
> > > Good to see Kate Hoey (ex sports minister) slagging off cyclists in
the
> > > MoS
> >
> > I was feeling belligerent so I sent an email, as below.
>
> I too was moved to write to the hurrying Ms Hoey. If we get a reply we should post them here.
>
> "I write with regard to your article in today's Mail on Sunday.
>
> You appear to regard cyclists as some sort of obstruction that stop you
from
> whizzing around London in your mini (very trendy, I'm sure). Have you
ever
> considered that you as one who insists on driving your little metal box
into
> London are one of those who cause delays and congestion? People who cycle to work should be
> applauded not slagged off in some crass 'get the
motorists
> on our side' stunt.
>
> You state that cyclists should be forced to ride in cycle lanes where they are provided - can I
> suggest that you try riding in a cycle lane before
you
> begin pontificating? Cycle lanes are painted by the kerb - the gutter is
> (a) full of rubbish and (b) has grates and drain covers in it. If you've ever cycled you would
> realise that riding across these things causes punctures and damage to your bike - so some of
> us exercise our legal right as road users to cycle on the main cariageway when we feel it is
> safer to
do
> so. If that causes you to be held up for a few seconds then tough - my
life
> is more important than a few seconds of your time.
>
> I was interested that you were careful to make the point that not all cyclists are 'lycra louts' -
> but you must surely be aware that articles
like
> yours will make the large number of motorists who drive dangerously near cyclists feel justified
> in their behaviour. "It's alright - I might have broken his legs but he was one of them lycra
> louts that Kate Hoey was on about."
>
> If anyone wrote an article trying to smear an ethnic minority with such broad generalisations
> ("but of course - there are some law abiding black people - they're not all crack dealers")
> there would be an outcry - well I for one hope that you have lost your party the support of a
> large section
of
> the population - you've ceratinly lost mine.
>
> Oh - and by the way - sounding your horn to tell someone to get out of the way is illegal."

[Zog The Undenia]

andy w wrote:

> Good to see Kate Hoey (ex sports minister) slagging off cyclists in the MoS today. Whilst I have
> sympathy with the viewpoint that cyclists running red lights etc gives us all a bad name, this
> sort of thing can only harden motorists attitudes.

Hopefully the CTC will send a considered response to this and the current Transport Minister (who
I believe rides a bike, although he is sadly misinformed about the need for bike lanes) will
"have a word".

Roger

[Zog The Undenia]

ouch wrote:

> My understanding is that cyclists don't have to use cycle lanes. Isn't this correct?

True unless there's a "no bikes" sign on the main road, such as on some narrow flyovers and
(obviously) motorways.

[Zog The Undenia]

One Step Beyond wrote:

I can't really improve on that!

[Stephen Clark]

"andy w" <andy@fattyandywiggans.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bmtvdm$er3$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> http://politics.guardian.co.uk/person/contactdetails/0,9309,-2458,00.html
>
> Contact details for the mini-driving ex-sports supremo (just in case you fancied getting
> in touch).
>
> "andy w" <andy@fattyandywiggans.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:bmtudd$e4q$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > Good to see Kate Hoey (ex sports minister) slagging off cyclists in the
> MoS
> > today. Whilst I have sympathy with the viewpoint that cyclists running
> red
> > lights etc gives us all a bad name, this sort of thing can only harden motorists attitudes.
> >
> > And Hoey was objecting to cyclists not riding in cycle lanes (ever tried riding over a drain
> > cover, Ms Hoey?) and to cyclists 'who ride down the middle of the road and object when I sound
> > my horn' (perhaps they're
> turning
> > right?).
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Here's her reply (top bit) to my email (bottom bit)

Dear Stephen, Thank you for those kind remarks. If cycle lanes are so terrible,why are we spending
millions of pounds when they are not used.. I note that you did not mention riding on pavements-all
responsible cyclists usually condemn that practice.By the way I fully support competitive cycling
and road racing-the country has a very good record in those areas. Best wishes Kate

-----Original Message----- From: Stephen Clark [mailto:stephenclark@clara.co.uk] Sent: 19 October
2003 14:13 To: hoeyk@parliament.uk Subject: I want to ride my bicycle

If you want the answers to the questions you posed in your newspaper article today, perhaps you'd
like to take up cycling. then you will understand how cycle paths are not the cleanest piece of
roadway and usually take a roundabout route to get anywhere. Also that the first metre of the road
from the kerb is often littered with grates, potholes and other obstacles.

One would of thought that an ex-sports minister would of been infavour of encouraging cycling rather
than attacking the activity and those who undertake it. But perhaps that is why you are an
ex-minister?