Lieswyn's Off Season
View Full Version : Lieswyn's Off Season
This is some funny ****, from JL's "2002 USA Cycling Awards," from the the weirdly interesting:
www.racelistings.com/rzone/rzone.htm
Worst Caravan Driver
John Wordin. I've laid on the brakes hard numerous times when he has tried to fit his Mercury
between the pack and a rapidly approaching concrete bridge abutment, sign, or parked car. In his
defense, his team's riding earns Wordin the right and necessity to continually bomb past the peloton
on his way to the break, which his team never misses. I bet the euro peloton wasn't too impressed
with his blunderbuss approach to driving whenever he supplanted the euro directors of
Mercury/Viatel. Wordin did find a euro team car horn that livened up the caravan a few times these
last two years!
Maurice, has heard many Euro pros scorn Wordin's "blunderbuss approach to driving" Freiburg
Maurice De Muer <mdm2020x@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3DFF32E0.1040001@yahoo.com>...
> This is some funny ****, from JL's "2002 USA Cycling Awards," from the the weirdly interesting:
>
> www.racelistings.com/rzone/rzone.htm
>
> Worst Caravan Driver
>
> Maurice, has heard many Euro pros scorn Wordin's "blunderbuss approach to driving" Freiburg
Do you think Wordin will run him over with the car before McCook can crash him out? RVD
From the same article..........
Worst Race Organization
Anybody who tries to hold a yellow line rule road race. No USA Cycling sanction should be given to
an organizer trying to hold a road race under "yellow line rule" (open roads without rolling police
enclosure). A 17 year old boy lost his life in Asheville NC a few years ago in a "yellow line" road
race, and the event never happened again. The city still won't support bike racing. This is the MOST
DANGEROUS, NEGLIGENT condition for racing so don't organize it, race it, or support it!
************************
OK, John. Got it. Hey, let's do a road race; you go make the arrangements for the police, road
closure permits, town and state permits, alert for town residents, public meetings, extra officials,
extra support vehicles; and I'll come up the ~$25,000 to pay for all this.
Even in the economic boom of the '90's you could not even come close to raising the funds needed
to do this. Just talk to the guy who ran last year's VOS. If we decided to run races the way
John wanted, the road race as we know it would cease to exist. We'd be just a culture of
criterium experts.
Get real John. If you don't want to show up for a local road race; fine. You won't be missed.
Oh, by the way, what's your phone number so I can put it down as a contact for public feedback on
our proposed event.
Maurice De Muer <mdm2020x@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3DFF32E0.1040001@yahoo.com>...
> This is some funny ****, from JL's "2002 USA Cycling Awards," from the the weirdly interesting:
>
> www.racelistings.com/rzone/rzone.htm
>
> Worst Caravan Driver
>
> John Wordin. I've laid on the brakes hard numerous times when he has tried to fit his Mercury
> between the pack and a rapidly approaching concrete bridge abutment, sign, or parked car. In his
> defense, his team's riding earns Wordin the right and necessity to continually bomb past the
> peloton on his way to the break, which his team never misses. I bet the euro peloton wasn't too
> impressed with his blunderbuss approach to driving whenever he supplanted the euro directors of
> Mercury/Viatel. Wordin did find a euro team car horn that livened up the caravan a few times these
> last two years!
>
> Maurice, has heard many Euro pros scorn Wordin's "blunderbuss approach to driving" Freiburg
DanSchmatz <danschmatz@aol.com> wrote:
> I'd rather race crits than get run over.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. Ask Skip "Speed Bump" Spangenberg.
Bob Schwartz cvcc@execpc.com
John Lieswyn <jlieswyn@mchsi.com> wrote:
> See #5... I can't believe this moron, Bob Schwartz...
John, take the time to talk to someone in Iowa that actually organizes races. Run your minimum
requirements past that person. It is possible to run short circuit races on closed courses in parks.
The Lake Park races in Superweek for example. Once you get beyond that scale you need to have a lot
of cash and/or political muscle behind you. Dave LaPorte could tell you about what it takes to run
the road races that he runs. Its a lot, don't kid yourself. And likewise, don't kid yourself that
the community and political support that NRC races get is normal. I am absolutely in awe of the
resources and effort and money and political backing that he is able to pull together for the stuff
he runs. That is very, very, exceptional. It is also because the base cause is a charity for kids
and not bike racing.
The race that you mention as being safe and well run does not meet your requirements by the way. You
were counting on the low traffic counts and (I'm guessing) great sight lines from a lack of terrain
to allow the yellow line to be disregarded. But maybe we will see you at one of our races because
that's what we do to secure the course i.e. corner marshals in an area with very little traffic.
You're welcome to come if you have the time. But we do enforce the center line because in spite of
the lack of traffic there are many places where you can't see well enough up the road. We're not
lucky enough to be as dead flat as Iowa. If that is unacceptable then we'll miss you.
But you didn't have a closed course or a rolling enclosure at that race in Iowa. An incident like
the one in Ashville could have happened. Low traffic count roads are not necessarily any safer
because one of the things that happens in those situations is that people eventually assume there is
nothing up the road. Even if you have great sight lines, you can still have problems with overtaking
vehicles. No ****. I can think of at least one case where people spilled over the yellow line as a
guy with his foot heavy on the gas was coming. It was only timing that made the major cost of that
incident nothing more than a pissed off driver. This was on a low traffic count road like that safe
race you did in Iowa. That's why we enforce the yellow line even if there is nothing up the road. If
VOS had traffic count issues then maybe it is a good thing that the race is gone, but traffic count
is not the entire story.
I am very aware of the risks of bike racing. I do not believe that the risk of racing a yellow line
race is greater than the risk of getting into the car to drive to said race. Think about that for a
second. If someone crashed and died on the way to a race do you think anyone outside the local
racing community would hear about it? Probably not. People die in cars all the time.
You haven't done your homework. Go talk to someone that has actually organized a road race. Ask them
about the effort and clout and money required to meet your minimum standards. Go to the cops where
you live, tell them you want to put on a road race. Ask them what you'd need to get their OK. Be
sure to ask if they wouldn't mind volunteering their time like those cops at the race you mentioned.
*Then* come back and if you still think I'm a moron, go ahead and call me a moron. But I have done
all those things and you are talking about clearing the calendar of road races in order to avoid a
very real but very small amount of risk. You are not yet qualified to call me a moron.
Actually I haven't done all those things. I've never asked a cop to volunteer their time. We have
gotten free cops though, but only because the city tourism people had gotten general event support
built into the police budget. They sure as hell weren't doing it just for us.
BTW The city of Milwaukee has motorcycle cops. They are the only cop jurisdiction in the state of
Wisconsin that I am aware of that does. A rolling enclosure is not possible for me at any price.
Also BTW, there were road races almost every weekend here last summer. Aside from the aforementioned
Superweek closed course park races and a couple that are held on pavement that is not open to the
public to begin with, none of them meet your standards. And I do not believe any of them could,
although most meet the standard of that "safe" race in Iowa. If someone is ever unfortunate to get
whacked by a car and die while participating, the race fatality race will still be dwarved by the
fatality rate suffered by people training for those races.
The "cram it someplace dark" comment was because I think that if someone ever gets whacked at one of
those safe races like the one in Iowa we will see that statement in court regardless of where any
fault lies because it is an expert opinion that there is negligence in even offering such a race. On
behalf of organizers everywhere I say, thanks loads.
Bob Schwartz cvcc@execpc.com
Do you wear your helmet in the car? Why not?
<< OK, John. Got it. Hey, let's do a road race; you go make the arrangements for the police, road
closure permits, town and state permits, alert for town residents, public meetings, extra officials,
extra support vehicles; and I'll come up the ~$25,000 to pay for all this. >>
Ok, so it is slightly more difficult than doing an industrial park crit, but let's not get too
crazy here.
For the road race I put on with rolling enclosure. 3 state troopers at $55 hr for a 100+ mile RR is
only about $1000. The officials for both days of a race weekend is only about $1500 I think. There
is no charge to use the public roads.
Andrew Albright
I'd rather race crits than get run over.
DanSchmatz <danschmatz@aol.com> wrote:
> I'd rather race crits than get run over.
I'd rather race crits than get hit by lightning. But I really don't spend much time worrying about
getting hit by lightning. Or getting run over during a race. I think I take a comparable risk every
time I get in the car. The 50% of the field that is juicing on ephedra is taking a greater risk
before the race even starts.
I am very concerned that he has voiced an expert opinion that 99% of the road races in this country
are inherently dangerous and that promoters that do not take steps that are simply not financially
or logistically possible in most cases are negligent.
For every venue that is lost because of a fatality like the one he cites in Ashville there are a
million that are lost because someone takes a leak in public or because people are pissed off
because they can't drive any speed they want on any road they want at any time they want.
I like John and his writing but I'd like to take that particular paragraph and cram it
someplace dark.
Bob Schwartz cvcc@execpc.com
If you are happy racing only crits, great, but all you have to do is pretend the yellow line is a
curb. Its not very difficult.
"DanSchmatz" <danschmatz@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021217225400.25803.00000139@mb-bh.aol.com...
> I'd rather race crits than get run over.
"DanSchmatz" <danschmatz@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021217225400.25803.00000139@mb-bh.aol.com...
> I'd rather race crits than get run over.
Is that an endorsement of rolling road closures, or a slam at Wordin's driving skills?
Andy Coggan (who wonders if Wordin went to the Papa Roy Stetina School of Driving?)
Monkeyhillcs <monkeyhillcs@aol.com> wrote:
> << OK, John. Got it. Hey, let's do a road race; you go make the arrangements for the police, road
> closure permits, town and state permits, alert for town residents, public meetings, extra
> officials, extra support vehicles; and I'll come up the ~$25,000 to pay for all this. >>
> Ok, so it is slightly more difficult than doing an industrial park crit, but let's not get too
> crazy here.
> For the road race I put on with rolling enclosure. 3 state troopers at $55 hr for a 100+ mile RR
> is only about $1000. The officials for both days of a race weekend is only about $1500 I think.
> There is no charge to use the public roads.
That's 3 cops/field, right?
Having cops at your race is a good thing, no doubt about that. People that will show up at town
meetings and scream until their face turns blue over having to wait 3 seconds for a race to pass
will not make a peep if there is a cop leading the race because its the cop that is making them
stop, not an unruly mob of homos on bikes. So they can be worth the expense for that alone.
But that is a level of expense that is an option for only a tiny percentage of races even if the
required number of motorcycle cops is available, which in most cases is not. There is no police
jurisdiction that I can think of as even being a remote possibility for a race that I might put on
that even has moto cops and that includes state troopers. And since a rolling enclosure isn't really
an option with cops in squad cars that means that what Lieswyn feels is the absolute base acceptable
level of road closure is not possible for for me as a promoter unless I have enough cash to buy my
own roads. A 'Lieswyn Approved' race has multiple levels of impossibility for me. I guess we won't
be seeing him.
Hell, I'll bet there isn't a single moto cop in the entire state of Iowa where he lives. Can anyone
tell me I'm wrong on that? If he'd hang out with the people that organize races in Ames I'll bet
he'd find out very quickly the magnitude of his gap with reality.
Bob Schwartz cvcc@execpc.com
See #5... I can't believe this moron, Bob Schwartz...
1) I did quite a few (60 plus) road (or circuit larger than 3km) races last year. One of them
scared me. VOS.
2) Here in Iowa I did a few as well. One in particular cost very little to run. The first place
prize was a waterbottle or something. I attended because it was safe, great training, and I love
racing. There were volunteers and volunteer off duty cops on every corner stopping traffic. There
isn't much traffic in the part of Iowa where the race was held. And there are motorcycle cops in
this state, brainiac.
3) Pretending the yellow line is a curb DOESN'T WORK when the guy in front of you slams on his
brakes and you have one option: slam into him or cross the line. That was the option presented to
the now DEAD junior rider from Asheville. I nearly DIED when I swerved over the line at VOS into
the path of an oncoming semi because of a near pileup right in front of me. Let's say you are
doing a "yellow line rule" race and there is a crash in front of you. You are either in the crash
or forced around it, either way you are over the line. A car runs you over. Will you be so gung
ho to promote or attend a yellow line rule in the future, given you survive the accident?
4) VOS was a circuit race, not point to point.
5) BOB: since when are 99% of the road races in America "yellow line rule" ?????? Logic...
"Bob Schwartz" <cvcc@shell.core.com> wrote in message
news:3e00997c$0$1427$1dc6e903@news.corecomm.net...
> DanSchmatz <danschmatz@aol.com> wrote:
> > I'd rather race crits than get run over.
>
> I'd rather race crits than get hit by lightning. But I really don't spend much time worrying about
> getting hit by lightning. Or getting run over during a race. I think I take a comparable risk
> every time I get in the car. The 50% of the field that is juicing on ephedra is taking a greater
> risk before the race even starts.
>
> I am very concerned that he has voiced an expert opinion that 99% of the road races in this
> country are inherently dangerous and that promoters that do not take steps that are simply not
> financially or logistically possible in most cases are negligent.
>
> For every venue that is lost because of a fatality like the one he cites in Ashville there are a
> million that are lost because someone takes a leak in public or because people are pissed off
> because they can't drive any speed they want on any road they want at any time they want.
>
> I like John and his writing but I'd like to take that particular paragraph and cram it
> someplace dark.
>
> Bob Schwartz cvcc@execpc.com
How would you compare a road race here in New Zealand (Tour of Southland for example) with an open
road race in the US? STF
"John Lieswyn" <jlieswyn@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:NAbM9.422919$QZ.66160@sccrnsc02...
> See #5... I can't believe this moron, Bob Schwartz...
>
> 1) I did quite a few (60 plus) road (or circuit larger than 3km) races
last
> year. One of them scared me. VOS.
>
> 2) Here in Iowa I did a few as well. One in particular cost very little
to
> run. The first place prize was a waterbottle or something. I attended because it was safe, great
> training, and I love racing. There were volunteers and volunteer off duty cops on every corner
> stopping traffic. There isn't much traffic in the part of Iowa where the race was held. And there
> are motorcycle cops in this state, brainiac.
>
> 3) Pretending the yellow line is a curb DOESN'T WORK when the guy in front of you slams on his
> brakes and you have one option: slam into him or cross the line. That was the option presented
> to the now DEAD junior rider from Asheville. I nearly DIED when I swerved over the line at VOS
> into the
path
> of an oncoming semi because of a near pileup right in front of me. Let's say you are doing a
> "yellow line rule" race and there is a crash in front
of
> you. You are either in the crash or forced around it, either way you are over the line. A car runs
> you over. Will you be so gung ho to promote or attend a yellow line rule in the future, given you
> survive the accident?
>
> 4) VOS was a circuit race, not point to point.
I agree with Mr. L.
VOS can be extremely dangerous. Why doesn't the White Mountain Club move the RR to the site of the
Superior RR, 1 hour east of Phoenix? Very safe course in comparison - no traffic, difficult climbs.
I was going to email them last year about it, but oh well.
I've only done a handful of yellow line road races in the USA in my 17 years. I always avoided them
when I could and now it could be the USPRO road race championships and I wouldn't go if it was held
under yellow line rule (a bit of exaggeration there to make my point). You will see the entire
Saturn team at Valley of the Sun and if it is run under yellow line rule I won't be there, NRC
points or not. Plus, as a out of stater (not local to Arizona) why spend $700 going to a race in
Arizona with no publicity, no prizemoney?
How does a "open" (yellow line rule) race compare to the Southland tour? Apples to Oranges.
Southland Tour has rolling enclosure. I never once in two outings there and two dozen road races
there saw a car/truck coming at us head on. For all you people who are emailing me confused about my
statements on Asheville, read carefully. In the previous sentence the grammatical structure is "I
NEVER ONCE" which means that I DID NOT. Once again, read carefully. I did not say Asheville doesn't
have great cycling scene. I only said that Bele Chere isn't around anymore thanks to yellow line
rule race disaster. TO MAKE IT EVER SO CLEAR (can you tell I'm annoyed that people can't read?)
Asheville has a great cycling scene, and annual races that are lots of fun and safely run.
John "Stewart Fleming" <stewart.fleming@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:3E015A49.696918A5@paradise.net.nz...
> How would you compare a road race here in New Zealand (Tour of Southland
for
> example) with an open road race in the US? STF
>Subject: Re: Lieswyn's Off Season From: danschmatz@aol.com (DanSchmatz) Date: 12/17/02 9:54 PM
>Central Standard Time Message-id: <20021217225400.25803.00000139@mb-bh.aol.com>
>
>I'd rather race crits than get run over.
I'll second that. Why would anyone want to race for 100 miles in the US when everyone knows the real
money is in crits...
thanks, jason
Monkeyhillcs <monkeyhillcs@aol.com> wrote:
> From: Bob Schwartz cvcc@shell.core.com
> <<That's 3 cops/field, right?>>
> No. 2 cops per field, and a ton of motorcycle officials. Delaware doesn't have motorocycle state
> troopers.
>>>But that is a level of expense that is an option for only a tiny
> percentage of races even if the required number of motorcycle cops is available, which in most
> cases is not. There is no police jurisdiction that I can think of as even being a remote
> possibility for a race that I might put on that even has moto cops and that includes state
> troopers. And since a rolling enclosure isn't really an option with cops in squad cars>>>
> Wrong, see above. I think that most East Coast races with rolling enclosures don't have motor
> police. I can think of only FU-philly and Tour deWarsaw that have motorcycle police.
OK, maybe I'm unclear on exactly what you guys mean by 'rolling enclosure'.
My understanding is that a rolling enclosure has guys on motorcycles constantly leapfrogging the
field. A guy on a motor controls an intersection ahead of the race and holds it until the race
passes through. They then pass the follow caravan and field to control the next intersection. You
need a bunch of guys doing this and since they may be controlling intersections where the race does
not have the right of way they need to be cops.
So do you guys only use courses that don't ever run stop signs? Or do the cops not mind people
that are not cops acting like cops if there are real cops up in front of the race? If you can
swing that then you must have a real silver tongue, I'll bet you get laid more in a week than
Ku... oh never mind.
It also sounds like you're running a single field. One of my points was that the expense and effort
gets much higher if you are doing this with 5 or 6 concurrent fields like most of the local USAC
road races around here do. There are a lots of things that are possible for single field races that
drop into the NFW category once you start talking women and cat 3s, 4/5s, multiple levels of
masters...
> There are a lot of officials with motorcycles. Or you could do like Bill Laudien and shut the
> road down in one direction. Then you don't really need that many mobile police.
If you guys have a ton of motor officials available then you are really lucky. Authority figures,
cops or officials, are easily the most valuable thing to have when running a safe race. We had two
local guys a number of years ago, neither is currently available. So a lot of races here will do
something similar with lots of officials in cars, enough to put an official behind each field. But
its a ton harder to control a race from a car than a motorcycle. You can't easily and safely get in
people's faces in a car the way you can on a motor. I wish we had more motor refs.
Is Laudien taking a road that people actually want to drive on during the race? He must have powers
of persuasion that explains why he doesn't have time to post here much anymore.
Bob Schwartz cvcc@execpc.com
Jason Waddell wrote in message
>> I'll second that. Why would anyone want to race for 100 miles in the US when everyone knows the
>> real money is in crits...
VeloRodsMom wrote:
>Cause crits are for fags. At least that's what my son Rodney tells me all the time.
Better tell your son not to call these big crit sprinters fags to their faces unless you'd like him
back with newly re-arranged facial features.
Donald 'everyone kicks sand in my face cos I'm a climber' Munro
"John Lieswyn" <jlieswyn@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:<kQbM9.422078$NH2.30971@sccrnsc01>...
> I didn't claim that there isn't much racing in Asheville. I SAID that the fatality meant the end
> of a great event (the Bele Chere cycling road race)
>
> Come on people. If you are going to quote or criticize me, at least read my stuff thoroughly
> first. Don't misquote it.
Come on John, you know the rules here. Jesus Christ would be criticized for saying something
(reminds one of "Did he say, 'Blessed are the cheese-makers?'")
Yellow line rules are stupid and shouldn't be allowed for large races. And yet they have become
common. As you point out, if there's no other way around an obstruction a rider will cross the
yellow line either on purpose or accidently or because there is no alternative.
And we should also mention that the yellow line rule is so often "in effect" and yet ignored that
many racers simply pay it no attention at all and then cry when they are disqualified by it. When I
drove team cars I would often watch the whole pack ride on the yellow line and yet the right gutter
was open. Many riders race as if there were nothing but lemmings.
I understand that if you cannot shut a road down for a few hours that a yellow line rule is better
than no racing. But there is a difference between a 40 rider local race and a 200+ rider national
caliber race.
"Jason Waddell" wrote:
> I'll second that. Why would anyone want to race for 100 miles in the US
when
> everyone knows the real money is in crits...
Hmmm. Real Money? I can't tell if you are being facetious or not. I was pretty sure that very few
cyclists are in the sport for the "Real Money." What do you consider real money? As far as road
races are concerned, I for one would like to see more of them. Here in Colorado it seems a bit
difficult to get CDOT (CO Dept of Trans) to approve a road race. I think this is a shame since this
state has the potential to be the best road race state in the nation. Besides, road races can be
kinda cool since they tend separate cyclists based on fitness levels more quickly than crits. Office
park crits just don't seem to be the key to keeping "Real Money" in this sport. I think you need big
road races to get and keep the "Real Money" around.
--
Bill
Automatic Translations (Powered by
):
vBulletin, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by
vBSEO 3.3.0
