reviews of winter running clothes

[Donovan Rebbech]

Intro:

My motive for doing this is that there is a lack of decent clothing reviews on this newsgroup and
outside. This should at least give newbie googlers a starting point.

General points:

(1) Never pay retail. Or at least almost never. Either get a discount from your local shop, or get
these items cheaply online. These items and items that are similar are usually available for
about 50% off or close to that.

(2) Quality trumps quantity. Most of these clothes should be hand-washed, and they line-dry
overnight, so it's not necessary to have 101 duplicates of each item (get that, Global ?)

(3) My (*) ratings are completely subjective and biased, and I may dock points off for things you
don't care about (e.g. if I think it should be reflective and it isn't) or price (which may be
irrelevant if you can get the item in question at 60% off) IOW, the * ratings are worthless if
you don't understand why I gave them (and arguably worthless anyway)

(4) There are lots of brands that make good clothing. The ones I can think of are SportHill, Hind,
Insport, Sugoi, Pearl Izumi, Moving Comfort, Craft, and all the running shoe brands. My choices
of items are somewhat arbitrary, other brands make similar items. I've tried to offer examples
where possible. My favourite brands are SportHill, Sugoi and Insport -- all of these seem to
offer some very good clothing. For example, Sugoi have the best reflective tights on the market,
and a top notch soft-shell jacket. SportHill's semi-fitted 3SP clothes like the famous XC pant
makes their "shed the layers, keep the warmth" slogan ring true. But all the major brands are
good. Insport offer almost every type of Polartec available, and I happen to like Polartec.
YMMV, of course.

(5) Websites (high star rating for informative, useful websites)

Insport: http://www.insport.com (http://www.insport.com/) (*****) Includes online discount store SportHill:
http://www.sporthill.com (http://www.sporthill.com/) (*****) Hind: http://www.hind.com (http://www.hind.com/) (*****) Sugoi: http://www.sugoi.ca (http://www.sugoi.ca/)
(*****) BOA: http://www.boausa.com (http://www.boausa.com/) (**) A little low key-- photos of products would be nice instead
of sketches Asics: http://www.asics.com (http://www.asics.com/) (*) This website is a waste of time UnderArmour
http://www.underarmour.com (http://www.underarmour.com/) (****) Decent website, too bad most of it isn't worth buying.

And now the reviews:

Summary: Rating Price Pckt Refl Fabric SportHill Explorer Top **** 85 n n 3sp/swift Insport Fleece
Trainer **** 68 n n Heavy duty Polartec Technifine Travel Pants ***** 65 2 n Lightweight Polyester
FinoPlus Drive Tee ***** 65 n y Lightweight Polyester Pearl Izumi Escape Jacket ***** 90 3 Y
Polyester shell Asics Arashi Jacket *** 130 3 Y Poly in/Nylon out Sugoi Windhibitor Focus Jacket
**** 135 3 y 3 ply polyester UnderArmour Cold Gear Top ** 50 n n nylon Brooks Vapor Dry Zip top ***
65 n n nylon BOA Dritek Sensor Tight **** 60 n n Midweight Polyester Sporthill Infuzion hat ***** 20
Polyester Sporthill Infuzion glove ***** 20 Polyester

Insport Fleece trainer (newer versions are sometimes called ``vapor fleece trainer'')

Retail: $68- Fabric: ``heavyweight'' Polartec Powerdry Fabric type: polyester, fleece texture
inside, smooth out. Packets: no Reflective: no

Review:

This fabric wicks like crazy. When I line-dry it, the inside is dry to touch, within minutes of
hanging it up. The moisture transport on this fabric works like charm. Score one to Insport for
using Polartec in their products.

Where to buy "for cheap":

Insport is available on the "sale" section of insport.com, also try rei-outlet.com

**** (great, but I'd like some reflective material)

Similar products: Hind Arctic Drylete, Sugoi SubZero, SportHill Infuzion

SportHill Exporer top

Retail: $85- Fabric: Front: 3sp. Back: swift. ``heavyweight'' Polartec Powerdry Fabric type: 3sp:
windproof polypro. Brushed texture inside, smooth out. Swift: polyester, fleece inside, smooth out.
Pockets: no Reflective: no

Review: The 3SP is genuinely windproof. This top is not that thick/heavy looking, but it is very
good as a single layer in freezing and windy conditions (mid 20s to low 30s). The windproof property
means that it can perform a dual role of a jacket and warm top.

3SP is moderately stiff, not as cozy as fleecy polyester but not uncomfortable either.

The swift fabric is similar to that in the Insport top. SportHill also make ``homogeneous''
tops: the XC top is completely made of 3SP, the Infuzion top is similar to the Insport top
above, made of Swift.

The mix provided by the explorer top is quite good-- the windproof property is really much more
useful at the front than at the back.

Both the fabrics (3sp, swift) do a reasonable job at moisture transport, the swift fabric is close
to Polartec powerdry, the 3sp not quite as good but not bad either.

What's missing ? Pockets, reflective material.

**** (gimme some reflective material and a pocket!)

Where to buy: rei-outlet.com has a good supply of heavily discounted (50%) Sporthill clothes.

Sugoi Technifine Travel Pants Retail: $65- Fabric: Technifine Description: lightweight polyester
Pockets: two side zip pockets Reflective: no Review: a good starting point for someone who wants
lightweight running pants. Material is similar to that used in lightweight long sleeve tees. Where
to buy: rei.com

***** A nice pair of runing pants

Finoplus Drive Tee Retail: $65- Fabric: Technifine Description: lightweight polyester Reflective:
Scotch-lite detail on sleeves

A nice long sleeve tee. Good for the slightly colder "shorts" days. But I'm considering giving this
fabric up in favor of Polartec Powerdry/Xstatic Similar products: Insport Drysport tops

***** A winner

Pearl Izumi Escape Jacket Retail: 90 Fabric: Zepphyr 2 Polyester Description: lightweight shell
Pockets: "Hidden" chest zip pocket, side zip pockets. Reflective: scotch-lite tape on back.
"Screaming Yellow" is very bright in its own right.

Review: Very light shell jacket with pockets. Nice for visibility especially in the screaming
yellow, and seems waterproof/breathable enough. The Flash jacket is similar except has larger
reflective patches. A solid product, though not earth shattering (or to put it another way, there
are a lot of very good jackets on the market)

This jacket has it all, and it's at the right end of the price spectrum (though one may get
something good cheaper at REI)

***** cos it's really good. But so is the competition.

Where to buy: rei-outlet frequently have cheap shell jackets. Look for: (*) Stretch material (*)
Reflective piping (*) Pockets (*) Mesh armpits or more breathable material in the sides. (*) Or
underarm zips (*) Drop tail (if you're cycling)

Similar products: too many to list...

Asics Arashi Jacket Retail: 130 Fabric: Polyester inside, Nylon outer Description: dual-layer shell.
Pockets: chest, 2xside zip Reflective: Scotchlite piping, reflective stripes Review: Nice waterproof
shell, but a tad pricy for what it is. A rant about Asics: their website is terrible. They don't
make any effort to explain their product line. ALl of their products are apparently super warm,
super cool, super light, breathable, wicking, etc all at the same time. Products are named after
shoes (e.g. Verdict) instead of having names that suggest function (with the exception of
"Thermopolis") Fabrics are given incomprehensible gobbledygook names.

Similar products: too many to list. *** really nice, but a little expensive.

Sugoi Windhibitor Focus Jacket Retail: $135- Fabric: Windhibitor Description: densely woven
windproof polyester Pockets: Side zip and back zip. Reflective: no

Review: This is a very warm jacket, yet has an aero fit, not ``baggy'' like the typical rain jacket.
One of the few running products that looks good. Long drop-down tail. Good for running or cycling.
The only problem is finding weather cold enough to justify blowing so much money on a jacket. The
moisture transport is not as good as it is with lighter materials, but you will not get drenched in
the jacket either.

Similar products: Sporthill Windshield jacket ($159 retail)

**** could use reflective material, too warm for most conditions, expensive.

Under Armour Cold Gear Retail: $50- Fabric: Nylon Lycra Description: slightly brushed inside, smooth
outside Reflective: no Pockets: no

Made to be worn as a base layer, or an outer layer for those who want to show off. The fit on these
is extremely tight. I can literally see my forearm veins through the material when I wear the white
top. This one really lets all the details show through. Unfortunately, something so tight is not all
that comfortable in a tough nylon fabric, and it's not necessary (IMO) to have something so fitted
for cold weather. Also, no flat seams, and no zipper -- features that are standard in name-brand
running tops. Stear clear of this and go with one of the alternatives instead

Similar products: There are many tops in the ``tight lycra'' genre that are neither as obnoxious,
nor as uncomfortable as UnderArmour. Example of good tops in a similar style include Sugoi midzero
(Polyester), Hind Drylete (Polyester), Brooks Vapor-dry (Nylon, this top is like UnderArmour ``done
right''), Asics Thermopolis, Sporthill Dryline Nylon (``Tempo Top'').

Where to buy: can get these ``cheaper'' at Foot locker or Modeles when they have their ``sales''.
But youd be better off with something else.

** Get something else.

Brooks Vapor Dry Half-Zip Top Retail: $65- Fabric: Nylon Lycra Description: brushed inside, smooth
outside Reflective: no Pockets: no

Review: very comfortable, solid pick in the ``tight lycra'' genre. Flat seams, zipper, long neck
which is nice for cold weather. So comfortable that I wear it around even when not running.

*** Good in that genre, I just like the fleecy Polyester more.

BOA Dritek Sensor Tight Retail: $60 Fabric: Polyester, approximately midweight for tights.
Description: standard material for tights Reflective: no Pockets: no

Review: Features include 8 panel construction, zippers, drawstring. These are very nice tights,
tried them on in the store before buying and was very impressed. Just the right weight for me, I can
wear them at any temperature that's too cold for shorts, down to single digits. It may be good to
wear briefs or something under or over them to "protect the goods" on really cold days.

The only thing that they're missing is relective material.

Similar products: Sugoi Midzero Zap tight (most reflective on the market), Hind Drylete3 tights,
lots of others.

**** These should have at least some reflective material.

Sporthill Infuzion hat and gloves:

The gloves are thin lightweight polyester, and don't impeded ones manual dexterity too much. Not all
that warm, but thin enough to use as an inner layer.

The hat is made of lightweight material, but good enough to keep the head warm on pretty cold days,
and people who usually find hats irritating will be able to stand it.

***** Cos they do what they're supposed to do.

Similar products: Hind Drylete gloves and hat.

--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Rick++]

I dont recall paying more than $10 a piece in years. That includes lycra-blend tights, shirts, outer-
shell nylon wind pants, jackets. Add a layer every -20 degrees or so. A good time is is end-of-
season, coming in about a month. Now and then scan discount shops like TJ Maxx, Ross, Nike outlet.
I've seen a lot of this stuff at Target, as recently as yesterday.

[Angus Macgregor]

Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc04cci.b09.abuse@panix2.panix.com>...
> Intro:
>
> My motive for doing this is that there is a lack of decent clothing reviews on this newsgroup and
> outside. This should at least give newbie googlers a starting point.

You gays are so fashion conscious.

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <f7422d8e.0401120816.33b6abb5@posting.google.com>, rick++ wrote:
> I dont recall paying more than $10 a piece in years. That includes lycra-blend tights, shirts, outer-
> shell nylon wind pants, jackets. Add a layer every -20 degrees or so. A good time is is end-of-
> season, coming in about a month. Now and then scan discount shops like TJ Maxx, Ross, Nike outlet.
> I've seen a lot of this stuff at Target, as recently as yesterday.

You might be able to get no-name stuff "for-cheap". I've rarely seen name brand stuff for less than
about 50% off, and the starting prices are quite high. When name-brand stuff does appear, it will
probably be Nike, and it probably won't be something from their performance apparel line. I suppose
this sort of thing is partly locale dependent (I could see something like a Nike outlet having some
genuine bargains) but that's my experience anyway. YMMV, of course.

I don't mind blowing a bit more cash on name-brand. For example, my Sporthill Expolorer and Insport
Polartec tops are going to easily outlast my shoes. On the other hand, the cheapo "Champion" coolmax
briefs I purchased recently were a complete waste of money.

I prefer to save money by not having a huge wardrobe -- some ``thrifty'' runners may only pay $10-
$20 per item, but then they go and buy 5 duplicates of the same thing, and they end up spending as
much as or more than me anyway. I simply don't buy duplicates (except socks).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Globaldisc]

$10 a piece in years. That includes lycra-blend tights, shirts, outer-shell nylon wind
pants, jackets.
____

Can I call you on this one rick? $10 outer-shell jacket? hard to believe. i'm talking about
something w/the technology & design of "real running shells".
i.e. waterproof, windproof, breathable, reflective, moisture management, all that good stuff.
makes a big difference in real world use i find. plus i love all the convenient snaps and
zips, etc... the cheap stuff that cuts corners here and there is unacceptable for me.

Most of my shells are New Balance....picked them up from $20-25 at newbalancewebexpress and on Ebay.
I've got some great deals on quality gear on Ebay....new stuff. Keep an eye on ebay and you can pick
up quality shells (stuff that will last), real running gear at a good deal. The novelty aspect of
this one item might jack up the price a bit but the below ebay item will probably go for about $23-
$27 or so....it's an official New Balance Chicago Marathon '03 Shell. Right now it's at $12.50 and
the auction ends later today...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2777778574&indexURL=1#e bayphotohosting

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <20040112130746.07934.00003001@mb-m16.aol.com>, Globaldisc wrote:

> Most of my shells are New Balance....picked them up from $20-25 at newbalancewebexpress and
> on Ebay.

I checked these out and they both looked quite promising.

I like the direction this thread is taking -- addressing the question, where a cheapskate runner can
get good clothing. roadrunnersports is great for shoes, but lacking in apparel. Dot's prior rant
about roadrunnersports (saying that it was a lousy place to get winter clothing) was dead on. It
almost seems as though they've cut back on everything else so they can sell their own brand.

Since we're drifting to the topic of clothing for cheapskates -- does anyone use Duofold clothing ?
I've noticed that this stuff is made of coolmax, and is also very cheap (and often available at a
discount from the already cheap price).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Dot]

Donovan Rebbechi wrote:

>
> Since we're drifting to the topic of clothing for cheapskates -- does anyone use Duofold clothing
> ? I've noticed that this stuff is made of coolmax, and is also very cheap (and often available at
> a discount from the already cheap price).

Yep, that's about all I wear for the base layers - after the recommendations here a couple years ago
to go to CampMor. Some of it is coolmax (short-sleeve t's), but most of what I've got is other types
of polyester or synthetic. Sierra trading post is another good place to get gear, I think.

I'm with Rick++ - it doesn't have to be expensive, although I think some of my stuff might've been
between $10-$20. Get'em from CampMor. Haven't checked stuff lately as I've got one of a couple
things in different weights. That's been the standard reviews in past years - go to CampMor on sale
and buy duofold or whatever else is on sale. I got the tip here 2 years ago. But my fleece tends to
be from REI just because I had that before the CampMor tip. My summer shorts are from Wal-Mart since
I haven't seen anything better anywhere else. I'd like to improve on them, but haven't seen anything
I like better.

And if it can't be machine washed, I won't buy it. If a product can't stand a washing machine, it
sure isn't going to tolerate trail running ;) and I have better things to do with my time than hand
wash stuff. All my stuff goes in the dryer also - cool cycle.

FWIW, *for me*, I generally stay away from running shoe brands of clothing or "running"-type
clothes. At least around here, they're sold mostly in FootLocker and Sports Authority and are poor
quality and design (sometimes better designs are at Wal-Mart)- at least for what I look for in
running gear. They rarely have pockets large enough for a hat and mittens, and I've never seen a
decent hood on one. The local (45mi away) running store has some nice name brand (perl isumi, maybe?
but it's been awhile) running jackets (close to $100), but none have hoods and only small pockets so
I go across town to REI. The running store said nobody buys hooded versions if they stock them. But
REI sells a lot of gear to runners, including jackets with hoods - and some of their sales people
are trail and/or ultra runners.

Most people in the other running groups I'm in tend to get running gear from outdoor stores, like
REI and the Canadian equivalent MEI(?). I've found outdoor gear far better designed for winter or
trail running than running gear is, at least for me. I have bought some stuff at National Running
Center, but I like my duofold and rei gear better. Patagonia is another popular brand but I've never
been able to justify their cost. When trail running, I'm not always upright and vertical and might
be bushwacking through trees. My gear has to stand some abrasion. But I've noticed the orienteers
wear even different clothes - look snag resistant.

The exception to cheap is my sporthills xc, power dry tights (got before I knew about duofold from
Campmor), but most importantly, my Gore-tex shell from REI that has a really nice hood that
protected me from the 50+ mph winds last week, good pockets, breathable enough for the conditions
where I wear it, pit zips that can be closed (one running jacket has non-closeable mesh openings
covered by yoke - talk about air conditioning in windy conditions :( ). My rei hood rocks! I do tend
to wear polar fleece vest and/or jacket sometimes, but I had gotten the vest mostly for field work
and the jacket precedes Campmor knowledge. CAmpMor may have good shells, but I got mine before
knowing about them.

Here's a link with info about various fabrics - and it has links to other info...
http://www.specialtyoutdoors.com/terms.htm

BTW, sporthill xc's are not windproof. They advertise that up to 35mph, but I find them drafty at
about 20mph and need tights under them in anything under about 20F, in spite of their claim for
0-40F wear. But that's me. You can test in a store by blowing through them with your mouth. Do
that with Windstopper fabric and *nothing* comes out the other side. Some other materials will
have varying degrees of windproofness. The xc's are fairly tear resistant though. I wiped out
badly last winter
- drew blood from my knee underneath my sporthills, but never did find any tear in the pants!!

NFI. But I do wish I owned stock in Malden Mills ;) They've got some great materials - powerdry,
polarfleece, powerstretch. For those that haven't used polarfleece, it's fleece but stretchable -
not tight fitting but moves with body.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <vMCMb.23405$6y6.564527@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Dot wrote:

This thread is becoming more and more interesting ... I'm going to make a point of summarising the
results and putting it on a webpage afterwards.

> Yep, that's about all I wear for the base layers - after the recommendations here a couple years
> ago to go to CampMor. Some of it is coolmax (short-sleeve t's), but most of what I've got is other
> types of polyester or synthetic. Sierra trading post is another good place to get gear, I think.

Cool. I just browsed around Campor and it does look very good.

> I'm with Rick++ - it doesn't have to be expensive, although I think some of my stuff might've been
> between $10-$20. Get'em from CampMor. Haven't

Though presumably not the windbreakers (-;

> FWIW, *for me*, I generally stay away from running shoe brands of clothing or "running"-type
> clothes. At least around here, they're sold mostly in FootLocker and Sports Authority and are poor
> quality and design

In all fairness to "running clothes", the so-called "running clothes" one finds in FootLocker are
not comparable to those one finds in a good specialty running clothes store (not RRS) This boils
down to two issues:
(1) FootLocker barely even have running gear at all, and when they do stock it, they usually only
have the low-end items. You don't go to FootLocker to buy XC pants.
(2) The same is often true even of sports stores that have a reasonable size running section.

That said, I suspect that one advantage the non-running shoe brands have (e.g. SportHill) is that
they target a broader market. For example, SportHill also market to the skiing crowd. Even running
specialty shops often don't stock the more heavy duty variants of these products, and even totally
omit some of the better brands (e.g. I've seen running stores that don't carry SportHill, and I've
seen no running stores that carry Patagonia)

> (sometimes better designs are at Wal-Mart)- at least for what I look for in running gear. They
> rarely have pockets large enough for a hat and mittens, and I've never seen a decent hood on one.
> The local (45mi away) running store has some nice name brand (perl isumi, maybe? but it's been
> awhile) running jackets (close to $100),

Pearl Izumi make jackets with drawstring hoods, but you won't find them in FootLocker, and
probably won't even find them in a general sporting goods shop, or even a running store, because
of the above.

> The exception to cheap is my sporthills xc, power dry tights (got before

PowerDry is the one reason I like Insport (nearly all their stuff is Polartec)

> BTW, sporthill xc's are not windproof. They advertise that up to 35mph, but I find them drafty at
> about 20mph and need tights under them in anything under about 20F, in spite of their claim for
> 0-40F wear. But that's me. You can test in a store by blowing through them with your mouth.

I've actually tried this. Couldn't get any air through them.

Warmth is one area where there seems to be a lot of individual variation. It seems that the
relatively young males seem to need less heavy clothing, especially the faster ones. I'm comfortable
in moderately less than the "SportHill spec", and some of the faster runners here (e.g. David of the
"Training Week" thread) train in clothes that I would freeze in.

One of the main things I've learned from reading your posts is that not everyone shares my
physiology or environment, and the differences do have fairly important consequences on a number
of fronts.

> But I do wish I owned stock in Malden Mills ;) They've got some great materials - powerdry,
> polarfleece, powerstretch. For those that haven't used polarfleece, it's fleece but stretchable -
> not tight fitting but moves with body.

Yep. It's really good stuff. Warm, snug, and you can wear it without looking like a circus exhibit.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Perdy Tired]

> Since we're drifting to the topic of clothing for cheapskates -- does
anyone
> use Duofold clothing ? I've noticed that this stuff is made of coolmax,
and is
> also very cheap (and often available at a discount from the already cheap price).

I've bought a considerable amount of Duofold base layer clothing. Mostly from
http://www.rei.com/outlet/index.html and http://www.sierratradingpost.com/

I've found their CoolMax® and CoolMax® Alta products are excellent. Their own brand VariTECT
Performance HydroDuctT is far less impressive. I would not recommend the latter.

I have also found http://www.nationalrunningcenter.com/ can have fairly reasonable pricing
(especially if you get on their mailing list and get an occasional 10% discount coupon).

---

The best thing about being a cheapskate is walking into the local (and may I add, terribly
overpriced) running store and seeing their Coolmax Alta long sleeve tees (regular price CDN$49.99)
on sale for CDN$39.99, and knowing I paid between US$11 (CDN$14) buying them online from the
SierraTradingPost in the US. http://tinyurl.com/2vb9j

Another is the Hind Arctic Drylete Top I bought from REI-Outlet for US$42 (CDN$54), that my local
running store sells for CDN$140 http://tinyurl.com/2llj9

The above is only a couple examples of the online savings I find instead of paying the inflated
prices at our local running stores.

Perdy.

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <btvrcj$c1cv5$1@ID-102047.news.uni-berlin.de>, Perdy Tired wrote:
>

Thanks for the info on Duotech.

> Another is the Hind Arctic Drylete Top I bought from REI-Outlet for US$42 (CDN$54), that my local
> running store sells for CDN$140 http://tinyurl.com/2llj9

Running store price in the US is about $65 US for the Arctic Drylete top. I think you may be getting
hit with some sort of import penalty when you buy via the running store.

How do you like the Arctic Drylete top anyway ? Could you throw together a review along the lines of
what I wrote ? What kind of conditions do you wear it in ? It looks very warm (I've seen these in
the shops)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Dot]

Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
> In article <vMCMb.23405$6y6.564527@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Dot wrote:
>
>
> Though presumably not the windbreakers (-;

To be honest, I hadn't looked at them since I had gotten my shells elsewhere. But they do have my
summer rainshell - although not as cheap as I paid. I've found pictures don't give a really good
idea of the hoods or the pockets for that matter. I'm really fussy about my top shell and am still
looking for the perfect one, kinda like the Holy Grail ;) I'm not convinced the appropriate
materials have been invented yet.

>
> In all fairness to "running clothes", the so-called "running clothes" one finds in FootLocker are
> not comparable to those one finds in a good specialty running clothes store (not RRS)

Right, but those stores are the only ones that carry "running shoe" brands of clothing locally -
like Nike, Adidas(iirc). The techie ones in running shoe stores have other limitations - like no well-
designed hoods and pockets, if any, are too small to be useful - at least for me. That's why I was
looking elsewhere ;)

I'll admit I really like the feel of some of the microfiber material, but the ones I've seen just
haven't been that functional for trail running up here.

>
> That said, I suspect that one advantage the non-running shoe brands have (e.g. SportHill) is that
> they target a broader market. For example, SportHill also market to the skiing crowd. Even running
> specialty shops often don't stock the more heavy duty variants of these products, and even totally
> omit some of the better brands (e.g. I've seen running stores that don't carry SportHill, and I've
> seen no running stores that carry Patagonia)

Both better outdoor (not all the cheapies) and running stores carry SportHill xc pants and Patagonia
up here - at least the underwear. But keep in mind, that most people up here aren't activity
specific. I'd be hardpressed to find someone that only runs. In fact, several of the sales people at
the running store are xc skiiers - at least one of national caliber. The Anchorage ultra running
group occasionally announces to bring skis or snowshoes to get through some of the places on planned
training runs. In the other on-line running groups I participate in, they are mostly trail runners
mixed with other activities like adventure racing, climbing, mt biking, and assorted other
activities.

>
> Pearl Izumi make jackets with drawstring hoods, but you won't find them in FootLocker, and
> probably won't even find them in a general sporting goods shop, or even a running store, because
> of the above.

They also cost close to $300 and up, according to their web page, and I'm not sure how large their
pockets are or how well sealed the hoods are, but they do appear better than the ones I've seen. The
stuff the running store carries is closer to $100. Hmm, wonder if it's the price why it doesn't
sell, rather than the hood.

>>BTW, sporthill xc's are not windproof. They advertise that up to 35mph, but I find them drafty at
>>about 20mph and need tights under them in anything under about 20F, in spite of their claim for
>>0-40F wear. But that's me. You can test in a store by blowing through them with your mouth.
>
>
> I've actually tried this. Couldn't get any air through them.

You didn't blow hard enough ;) I can blow through mine and make a piece of paper flutter. And I know
I've always been able to blow through them
- ever since one of the first nights when I noticed how drafty they were. Must be all that hill work
developing lung power ;)

>
> One of the main things I've learned from reading your posts is that not everyone shares my
> physiology or environment, and the differences do have fairly important consequences on a number
> of fronts.

Right. I'm assuming by "environment" you mean both physical like weather as well as the types of
runs - city streets vs trails, orienteering, etc.

I'd also add "goals" to the list. On many of my runs I don't have trouble keeping warm for the
duration of the run, BUT I will notice my legs getting colder or my cb tube getting close to
freezing. IOW, for longer runs, I haven't hit the right balance of gear yet. Folks that are fast and
doing marathons or shorter are only going to be out there for a few hours. I need to build beyond
that point in winter since I'm slow and want to go a little longer, although goals are summer
oriented. I also prefer to have a greater margin of safety built in when running on trails in winter
than I would on roads. That's what I realized my first year on the group. What works for others here
may not work for me, and what works for me may not be needed by most others here - but I try to add
some diversity to the group, just in case there's some other adventurers out there ;)

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

[Amh]

Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc04cci.b09.abuse@panix2.panix.com>...
> Intro:
>
> My motive for doing this is that there is a lack of decent clothing reviews on this newsgroup and
> outside. This should at least give newbie googlers a starting point.
>

Good idea. Personal feed back is worth way more than advertising. I find that I don't sweat as much
as others I know. Therefore I can get away with wearing cotton for most of my running in the winter.
I've always been under the impression that people overdress for the winter, will sweat too much and
end up getting cold before they end their run. I always tell folks that they should be chilly for
the first half mile to mile. My experience is that I will warm up readily as long as I'm going my
own pace. If I decide to run slower to either recover or run socially I'll need an extra thin layer.
In any case I've saved a ton of money not having to buy Goretex and other high priced winter gear.

For reference sake I run in NYC where it is often below freezing and have some extended periods of
teens. All temperatures are in F.

I'll start from the top and go down.

Hats:

For rain an old Mets baseball hat or a neato wicking hat I got as a freebe. For cold weather I find
a full head of hair all the insulation I need
:-> but I wear an ear warmer head band to keep my ears warm. I got a
North Face one years ago at an outlet shop and I pick them up at ski sales sometimes. For freezing
cold (single digits F) I have a knit hat I got as a freebee from Shea Stadium.

Jackets: Rarely use them running. For really cold rain I have a Sugoi bike jacket that works to keep
me warm. Sometimes if it is freezing cold and windy I'll wear it. For long runs in cold weather I'll
sometimes wear a lightweight nylon windbreaker that was a freebee from a race.

Shirts: The longer I run the more likely I'll wear one of my Profile polypro shirts. Up to an hour
and even a little beyond I'm fine with plain old cotton shirts. For a 13 mile run in the freezing
range I'd wear Profile long sleeve shirt under a short sleeve cotton shirt. For really cold long
runs I'd wear my thick Bogner ski shirt or my Sporthill turtle neck shirt.

Gloves/Mittens: I really miss my Moving Comfort mittens that I lost while biking. But now I wear my
New Balance thin gloves. I'll double up on thin gloves when in single digits F.

Tights: I don't wear wind pants while running unless it was really cold and windy. I have a pair of
Profile thick polypro tights for single digit
F. Under 40 F I'll wear any old pair of lycra tights. I have a difficult time finding tights that
aren't too warm for me. I just got a pair of Acsics tights that will do fine for colder than
cool. But I prefer just plain old Lycra whenever I can find them on the bargain rack. Beneath the
tights I'll wear a pair of running shorts.

Socks: Smart wool socks for just about every occasion.

my $0.02 Andy

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <1b803152.0401130807.68bc321c@posting.google.com>, AMH wrote:
> Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc04cci.b09.abuse@panix2.panix.com>...

> Shirts: The longer I run the more likely I'll wear one of my Profile polypro shirts.

You mention polypro in a couple of places as your favourite base layer. Any recommendations
regarding where one can acquire these ? I'd imagine one could get these pretty cheap if one new
where to look.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Perdy Tired]

> Running store price in the US is about $65 US for the Arctic Drylete top.
I
> think you may be getting hit with some sort of import penalty when you buy via the running store.

I think the only penalty here lies in the reality of supply and demand (there are no duties,levies,
etc. on clothing -- if there was I'd be paying it as well when I import the clothes). The
availability of quality high tech running gear around here is pretty scarce. Therefore the local
stores can push the price to whatever level the consumer is willing to pay.

> How do you like the Arctic Drylete top anyway ? Could you throw together a review along the lines
> of what I wrote ? What kind of conditions do you
wear
> it in ? It looks very warm (I've seen these in the shops)

---

Hind Arctic DryLete Sportop http://tinyurl.com/3dx2m

Retail: $42-85 Fabric: Arctic DryLete®3 Fabric type: 87% polyester/13% Lycra Pockets: No Reflective:
Logos (minimal)

Review:

This top has terrific wicking abilities. As far as the advertised "ultimate protection up top in
below freezing temperatures", doesn't quite cut it for me. For starters, I think my top is possibly
sized a little too large (which may skew this review). The material works really well though. It is
soft and dry inside and wicks like a charm. I think the fabric is designed to fit skin tight. Mine
is fairly snug, yet allows an air space between the top and my skin (not to mention a draft from the
neck area since it doesn't close tight either) which makes it too cold as a single layer when the
temperatures dip below 0C (32F). I usually add a coolmax tee shirt underneath, and a fleece vest on
top, and this combination is good down to -18C (OF). Below that (or in windy conditions), adding a
shell has taken me comfortably down to -30C (-22F). The fleece vest adds the pockets the top is
missing, and the extra warmth I like in the trunk area.

Where to buy "for cheap": Rei-outlet.com

**** (great, but I'd like some more reflective material and pockets)

---

Hind Highlite Shell

Retail: $40-90 Fabric: Microlight polyester [Drylete side panels] Pockets: Yes (plenty) Reflective:
logos, piping, rear jacket pattern

Review:

By far the best shell I have for it's wicking and windproofing abilities. I think the breathable
side panels are its greatest asset when it comes to breathability. I have a NRC Best-of-Times
shell, that is pathetic compared to this one (my sleeves were always soaked at the end of a run
with that shell).

***** (a great shell)

Where to buy: Rei-outlet.com, National Running Center

Perdy.

[Perdy Tired]

> Where to buy: Rei-outlet.com, National Running Center

This is when NRC becomes a good place to buy things... Shortly after posting that last message an
email came in from NRC offering a 17% discount on apparel.

Here's the discount.... http://tinyurl.com/33ur9

Enjoy!

Perdy.

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <bu1cdv$cas0c$1@ID-102047.news.uni-berlin.de>, Perdy Tired wrote:
>
>> Where to buy: Rei-outlet.com, National Running Center
>
> This is when NRC becomes a good place to buy things... Shortly after posting that last message an
> email came in from NRC offering a 17% discount on apparel.

Looks good. A question (for you and Dot): are their store brand polypro clothes any good ?

Cheers.
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Perdy Tired]

> >> Where to buy: Rei-outlet.com, National Running Center
> >
> > This is when NRC becomes a good place to buy things... Shortly after posting that last message
> > an email came in from NRC offering a 17%
discount
> > on apparel.
>
> Looks good. A question (for you and Dot): are their store brand polypro
clothes
> any good ?

I don't know? I have several of their store brand items (Best of Times), although not polypro,
and am quite satisfied with them. As a result, I would assume the NRC polypro clothes would be
pretty good too.

Perdy.

[Gentolm]

i use dou-fold but i can nat find it anymore ,,, anyone know??? plodzilla

Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
> In article <20040112130746.07934.00003001@mb-m16.aol.com>, Globaldisc wrote:
>
> > Most of my shells are New Balance....picked them up from $20-25 at newbalancewebexpress and
> > on Ebay.
>
> I checked these out and they both looked quite promising.
>
> I like the direction this thread is taking -- addressing the question, where a cheapskate runner
> can get good clothing. roadrunnersports is great for shoes, but lacking in apparel. Dot's prior
> rant about roadrunnersports (saying that it was a lousy place to get winter clothing) was dead on.
> It almost seems as though they've cut back on everything else so they can sell their own brand.
>
> Since we're drifting to the topic of clothing for cheapskates -- does anyone use Duofold clothing
> ? I've noticed that this stuff is made of coolmax, and is also very cheap (and often available at
> a discount from the already cheap price).
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <4004ED3D.AED1B4F3@boeing.com>, gentolm wrote:
> i use dou-fold but i can nat find it anymore ,,, anyone know???

campmor

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Perdy Tired]

"gentolm" wrote in message....

> i use dou-fold but i can nat find it anymore ,,, anyone know??? plodzilla

Sierra Trading Post http://tinyurl.com/2mg5r

CampMor http://tinyurl.com/3xe8f

REI http://www.rei.com/

Perdy.