Sudden Drop in your Times?

[Run]

Anyone experienced a sudden drop in your MPM of a full minute, minute and a half, or two minutes,
over distances of 5K to 10K?

Were you able to maintain that new speed with subsequent runs?

Any ideas as to what enabled you to make the sudden breakthrough?

[MJuric]

On 15 Jan 2004 17:27:55 GMT, nurbackwards@aol.com (RUN) wrote:

>Anyone experienced a sudden drop in your MPM of a full minute, minute and a half, or two minutes,
>over distances of 5K to 10K?

Define "Sudden". As you were running? From one day, week, month to another?

>
>Were you able to maintain that new speed with subsequent runs?
>
>Any ideas as to what enabled you to make the sudden breakthrough?

Although I've never had it happen to me, I've heard some here say they've had "jumps" in
performance. My case is generally a gradual increase or decrease in fitness. Sometimes more
rapid than others but never what I would consider "sudden" and definately nothing on the
order of dropping a minute from one day to the next. I have had times were I had a bad day
followed by a good day were a minute different in pace "felt" nearly the same. Also the
opposite has happened.

~Matt

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <20040115122755.22937.00000040@mb-m04.aol.com>, RUN wrote:
> Anyone experienced a sudden drop in your MPM of a full minute, minute and a half, or two minutes,
> over distances of 5K to 10K?

First, a question: why do you ask ? Have you experienced such breakthroughs ? What sort of training
have you been doing ? Etc etc. Tell us the story behind the question.

Not that extreme, no. I've had breakthroughs of 1 minute over the *full distace* of distances 5k and
up though.

> Were you able to maintain that new speed with subsequent runs?

Yes. Though I was surprised by this. The first time you run a breakthrough performance, you wonder
if it was a "once-off", or even if you accept that you could repeat that performance, you also
wonder whether you'll run faster at other distances (for example, when you run a 1 minute PR 5k, the
thought of running a comparable 15k time is quite intimidating).

> Any ideas as to what enabled you to make the sudden breakthrough?

Breakthroughs like this usually occur suddenly, because they are usually the end result of
overreaching/high milage (which improves endurance but causes some loss of speed) followed by a
period of undertraining (exponential taper or a layoff). Both of my breakthrough performances this
year came after a layoff. The 5k run was a 1 minute PR, and the 4 mile run was 19 seconds per mile
faster than a a 5 mile race one month earlier.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <4006d796.246234995@news.choiceone.net>, MJuric wrote:

> Although I've never had it happen to me, I've heard some here say they've had "jumps" in
> performance. My case is generally a gradual increase or decrease in fitness. Sometimes more
> rapid than others but never what I would consider "sudden" and definately nothing on the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> order of dropping a minute from one day to the next.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is one thing that concerned me about his post. You can't really make such drops without
racing. And you can't make such drops "one day to the next" without racing during training. You can
have breakthrough races that are substantially better than prior efforts, but you rarely are fully
aware of what's coming until you actually finish the race (and even then, it's awfully hard to
believe the clock)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[M1ahearn]

>> Anyone experienced a sudden drop in your MPM of a full minute, minute and a
half, or two minutes, over distances of 5K to 10K? <<

Sort of - in my third year of running I lowered my 5K from 25:00 to 21:57.

>> Were you able to maintain that new speed with subsequent runs? <<

Not quite, my 5K's stabilized at around 23:00. The weather on the 21:57 was much more conducive
to fast running than the the later 5K's, though.

>> Any ideas as to what enabled you to make the sudden breakthrough? <<

A lot of running in a period where I wasn't racing. The only race I did within 10 months of
the breakthrough 5K was a huge 5K where I showed up late, started at the back of the pack and
took it very easy because I knew my time was going to suck. We didn't have these spiffy
'chipc' back then!

Mike

[M1ahearn]

>> >> Were you able to maintain that new speed with subsequent runs? <<

Not quite, my 5K's stabilized at around 23:00. The weather on the 21:57 was much more conducive
to fast running than the the later 5K's, though. <<

For the fall of that year and spring of the following year, I should specify - that was when I
was running 23:ish consistently. In the fall of the following year my times started downward
again - 21:20, 20:48, 20:27, and then
19:36 on a course that was probably a little short.

Mike

[MJuric]

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:22:34 +0000 (UTC), Donovan Rebbechi
<abuse@aol.com> wrote:

>In article <4006d796.246234995@news.choiceone.net>, MJuric wrote:
>
>> Although I've never had it happen to me, I've heard some here say they've had "jumps" in
>> performance. My case is generally a gradual increase or decrease in fitness. Sometimes more
>> rapid than others but never what I would consider "sudden" and definately nothing on the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> order of dropping a minute from one day to the next.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>This is one thing that concerned me about his post. You can't really make such drops without
>racing. And you can't make such drops "one day to the next" without racing during training. You can
>have breakthrough races that are substantially better than prior efforts, but you rarely are fully
>aware of what's coming until you actually finish the race (and even then, it's awfully hard to
>believe the clock)
>
>Cheers,
>--
>Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

That's why I asked for a more specific definition of sudden. A jump like that from day to
day, unless racing everyday as you mentioned, is likely a "good" day "bad" day thing. I've
had times when I didn't feel well or was outa sorts one day and a certain pace just felt
awfull. The next day or a couple of days later a significantly faster pace felt better. This
generally is not a "performance" gain as much as an indicator. Somtimes of fatigue, sickness
etc. If sudden means from one month to the next or greater than yes it's possible. Even
probable for a beginner.

~Matt

[Lyndon]

>Anyone experienced a sudden drop in your MPM of a full minute, minute and a half, or two minutes,
>over distances of 5K to 10K?
>
>Were you able to maintain that new speed with subsequent runs?
>
>Any ideas as to what enabled you to make the sudden breakthrough?
>

The magnitude of the change here seems a bit large but the effect is more common than perhaps many
realize. The path to performance improvement is not a straight line: There are training plateaus.
You can be in the same performance area for a lengthy time, and then, suddenly, something breaks,
and you make a sharp improvement--until you hit the next plateau.

The cause of breaking out of a plateau is often a change in the type or quality of training. This
change generally results in an improvement that can be maintained over time. If you keep doing the
same thing for more than 12 weeks at a time, further gains either moderate or disappear entirely,
and you have to do something different or add something different to your training to keep
improving.

One thing to be aware of, though, is the effect of tapering. If you suddenly cut back your training
for a couple of weeks, you can get a performance improvement as large as 5% (if you do everything
right), which for a 20 minute 5K runner can be a minute or so. This type of improvement is due to a
short-term increase in muscular strength (while the cut in volume hasn't hit you in aerobic capacity
yet). This type of performance improvement is a peak and is not a long term improvement that can be
maintained.

Lyndon "Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

[Rc5]

So what? you just pushed yourself a bit harder.
"RUN" <nurbackwards@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040115122755.22937.00000040@mb-m04.aol.com...
> Anyone experienced a sudden drop in your MPM of a full minute, minute and
a
> half, or two minutes, over distances of 5K to 10K?
>
> Were you able to maintain that new speed with subsequent runs?
>
> Any ideas as to what enabled you to make the sudden breakthrough?

[Jim Gravity]

nurbackwards@aol.com (RUN) wrote in message news:<20040115122755.22937.00000040@mb-m04.aol.com>...
> Anyone experienced a sudden drop in your MPM of a full minute, minute and a half, or two minutes,
> over distances of 5K to 10K?
>
> Were you able to maintain that new speed with subsequent runs?
>
> Any ideas as to what enabled you to make the sudden breakthrough?

Yes, but it was clearly because I had never specifically trained for running before my first few 5-
10ks. Those first few races were about 10 years back, and were a result of a bit of running and a
lot of cross training. A few years ago, I started running again and making it a priority. My first
race since 10 years ago was a half marathon, and I did it about 30 seconds per mile faster than that
first 10k. The pace in the half marathon didn't suprise me, because based on my pace in some hard 6
mile runs in training, I knew I could do it.

[Phil M.]

nurbackwards@aol.com (RUN) wrote in
news:20040115122755.22937.00000040@mb-m04.aol.com:

> Anyone experienced a sudden drop in your MPM of a full minute, minute and a half, or two minutes,
> over distances of 5K to 10K?
>
> Were you able to maintain that new speed with subsequent runs?
>
> Any ideas as to what enabled you to make the sudden breakthrough?

I've had decent drops in MPM. However, this was probably due to the realization that I could handle
the faster pace. I'm usually mindful of the fact that these breakthroughs can be immediately
followed by a decline. So I'm careful to not push the pace on a daily basis. A sudden drop of a
minute in your MPM pace sounds a little extreme. Maybe you need a new watch.

-Phil