State of the Art Marathon Training

[Phil M.]

Hello rec.runners. I have some questions and concerns concerning my
curring running plan. I am now following a mileage buildup schedule from
"State of the Art Marathon Training" at
http://www.marathontraining.com/marathon/m_mile.html

Here are the weekly miles: 14, 15, 16, 12, 17, 18, 20, 13, 22, 24, 26, 15, 28, 30, 32, 17, 34, 35,
19.

Here are the weekly percentage changes: +7%, +7%, -25%, +6%, +6%, +11%, -35%, +10%, +9%, +8%, -42%,
+8%, +7%, + 7%, +3%, -74%, -46%.

At the end of the 19th week you continue to hold your training levels until the marathon is 4 months
away. "Once you reach the 10-mile mark of your long run, you can then alternate your long run
sequence weekly as follows: 8, 9, 10, and then 6-mile long runs." When your planned marathon is 4
months away, you follow the schedule at http://www.marathontraining.com/marathon/m_sch_2.html

The marathon training schedule weekly miles are as follows: 34, 36, 18, 38, 41, 43, 20, 42, 38, 22,
43, 38, 24, 46, 36, 30, 22, marathon.

The weekly long runs are as follows: 10, 12, 6, 14, 16, 18, 6, 20, 14, 7, 21, 14, 8, 22, 12, 14,
10, marathon.

Has anyone here followed this plan? How did it work out for you? There are a few concerns I have
about the plan. One is that the recovery weeks are a drastic reduction in mileage. During the
marathon training phase the cut backs are 50% of the previous week. My other concern is that there
is no speed training. I'm guessing that if you paid for the "personal training" version of the plan
(requires a minimum payment of $70); Art would work in some speed training based on your running
ability. Is this more of a first-time-marathoner plan?

I am 46 years old. I have run 4 marathons in the past. One a year from 1996 to 1999. I've finished
in the 3:40 to 4:00 range. I took almost a 2 year layoff until August of '03. Because of the long
layoff and weight gain I started back very slowly in order to avoid an injury. I am currently on
week 15 of the buildup plan. My weight is less than it was before my fastest marathon. I have not
made any plans for a marathon yet. However, I am considering a fall marathon (Chicago or Marine
Corps) or a January '05 marathon (Houston). Should I be approaching this as a first- time-
marathoner? Given my past running history, should I push it a bit and add some speed work to my
training? Any feedback would be appreciated.

-Phil

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <Xns94737C083F6A5seilogramp@216.77.188.18>, Phil M. wrote:

[snip]

> During the marathon training phase the cut backs are 50% of the previous week.

My interpretaion from reading the schedule is that the point of this program is to prepare someone
who's undertrained for an 800m race to run a marathon.

It's not possible to get in 20 mile runs and train consistently without having some 40 mile weeks,
so the only way to stay at an average of 30 miles per week or so with such a schedule is to have a
lot of week-to-week variation in volume.

Keep in mind that a week is an arbitrary way to divide up time anyway, and for the purpose of
marathon training, where you cycle the lengths of the long runs, it's not a very good one. Most
marathon training programs are divided into microcycles consisting of 2-4 weeks.

> My other concern is that there is no speed training.

For a runner on 14mpw and wants to run a marathon, "speed training" is not a very high priority.
Note that he explains this in detail on his website.

> I'm guessing that if you paid for the "personal training" version of the plan (requires a minimum
> payment of $70); Art would work in some speed training based on your running ability. Is this more
> of a first-time-marathoner plan?

" The information contained within this site will enable runners of all ability levels to finish a
marathon comfortably and safely."

> gain I started back very slowly in order to avoid an injury. I am currently on week 15 of the
> buildup plan.

I don't run marathons, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. But anyway, this is my $0.02.
(but I think deep down you know all this ...)

I'd say that this means that time is on your side. Depending on exactly what you do, you may well
have a chance to build up to a consistent 40mpw before starting your marathon training program. That
would put you in a better position to commence a more advanced program than this one.

And yes, I think you should look for a slightly more advanced program. You do appear to be
interested in doing more than just finishing, so the design goals of this training program are not
really compatible with your personal goals.

There are some more competitive marathon training programs on the Running Times
(http://www.runningtimes.com (http://www.runningtimes.com/)) website. See their "basic" marathon training program for example (this
program includes strides, tempo runs, buildup races). I can't make evaluative statements since I
haven't done those programs or run marathons -- except to say that the Running Times programs look
more advanced and competition-oriented than the "state of the Art" program.

This page http://www.ingnycmarathon.org/training/trainingschedule.html has some milage schedules
written by Bob Glover. These cover several different levels of training. The fact that he doesn't
include speed work does not mean that he doesn't recommend it. The training FAQ discusses speed
work. Bob Glover has maintained respectable milage over 31 years, run several marathons and some
ultras, battled all sorts of problems, and still can be seen out there with his running team -- so I
respect his judgment.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Phil M.]

Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote in
news:slrnc0ivm8.hn7.abuse@panix2.panix.com:

> I'd say that this means that time is on your side. Depending on exactly what you do, you may well
> have a chance to build up to a consistent 40mpw before starting your marathon training program.
> That would put you in a better position to commence a more advanced program than this one.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Since I won't run a marathon any earlier than October, the
marathon training schedule would not start until June. Until then, I can continue on my current
build up plan, then continue on to the 40 mpw level and hold that for a while. Maybe incorporate
some local races.

> And yes, I think you should look for a slightly more advanced program. You do appear to be
> interested in doing more than just finishing, so the design goals of this training program are not
> really compatible with your personal goals.

I guess I do want to do better than just finish. A sub 3:45 finish sounds like a reasonable goal.
My only fear is that my motivation to achieve that goal may result in an injury. It's happened to
me before.

> There are some more competitive marathon training programs on the Running Times
> (http://www.runningtimes.com (http://www.runningtimes.com/)) website. See their "basic" marathon training program for example
> (this program includes strides, tempo runs, buildup races). I can't make evaluative statements
> since I haven't done those programs or run marathons -- except to say that the Running Times
> programs look more advanced and competition-oriented than the "state of the Art" program.

I've looked at a few of these. In particular "An Integrated Training Program"
http://tinyurl.com/2e28e.

> This page http://www.ingnycmarathon.org/training/trainingschedule.html has some milage schedules
> written by Bob Glover. These cover several different levels of training. The fact that he doesn't
> include speed work does not mean that he doesn't recommend it. The training FAQ discusses speed
> work. Bob Glover has maintained respectable milage over 31 years, run several marathons and some
> ultras, battled all sorts of problems, and still can be seen out there with his running team -- so
> I respect his judgment.

I already have Bob Glover's book. So I'll dust it off and review it for a suitable
training schedule.

Thanks again for your help.

-Phil

[Swstudio]

"Phil M." <pmarg@charter.net> wrote in message

> There are a few concerns I have about the plan. One is that the recovery weeks are a drastic
> reduction in mileage. During the marathon training phase the cut backs are 50% of the previous
> week. My other concern is that there is no speed training. I'm guessing that if you paid for the
> "personal training" version of the plan (requires a minimum payment of $70); Art would work in
> some speed training based on your running ability. Is this more of a first-time-marathoner plan?
>
> I am 46 years old. I have run 4 marathons in the past. One a year from 1996 to 1999. I've finished
> in the 3:40 to 4:00 range. I took almost a 2 year layoff until August of '03. Because of the long
> layoff and weight gain I started back very slowly in order to avoid an injury. I am currently on
> week 15 of the buildup plan. My weight is less than it was before my fastest marathon. I have not
> made any plans for a marathon yet. However, I am considering a fall marathon (Chicago or Marine
> Corps) or a January '05 marathon (Houston). Should I be approaching this as a first- time-
> marathoner? Given my past running history, should I push it a bit and add some speed work to my
> training? Any feedback would be appreciated.
>
> -Phil
>

A good way to incorporate some turnover work and a little speed training as well into your marathon
program is to try something like 10x100m during the middle miles of some of your medium long runs...
kinda like a structured fartlek. Pete Pfitzinger uses this apporach in his "Advanced Marathon
Training" book.

I tried it with some success, but I believe you may be better off getting some long-ish fast runs
in, like 10 - 12km at ½ marathon pace. These runs help remind you of what it's like to run fast, and
helps you keep the edge, but aren't as hard on the body as a bunch of intervals at high speed.

--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org

[Sam]

I think the plan will get a person to the finish line and is really fairly conservative (not a
bad thing).

I presume you paid nothing for this so do not expect a plan that will make you faster.

As for the reductions in volume, the plan is being conservative but not all that unusual considering
the people probably interested might not be all that experienced.

If you want something more individualized, pay for it.

I had been coaching runners and often talk training with other runners; I would speak in general
terms but if someone wanted specific advise, he/she needed to break out the checkbook. Do you give
away the services you provide in your business?

A final thing, if you want to follow this or any plan, follow it to the best of your ability. If you
go changes it around and it does not work, do not blame the program since you are not following it.
I had this athlete I coached (well tried to coach) to his first marathon. I would ask for his work
schedule (retail so while long hours, it was pretty well set) and send a plan fitted to the work
schedule. Every month I would get back the plan with what he actually did, and he was moving
workouts around willy nilly without consulting me. Now, he does not do well and potentially my name
is mud since some people know that I was writing the training program (but he was not following it).

Sorry, a bit of a vent.

--
Sam, glad to be back after a bit of a hiatus. "Phil M." <pmarg@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94737C083F6A5seilogramp@216.77.188.18...
> Hello rec.runners. I have some questions and concerns concerning my curring running plan. I am now
> following a mileage buildup schedule from "State of the Art Marathon Training" at
> http://www.marathontraining.com/marathon/m_mile.html
>
> Here are the weekly miles: 14, 15, 16, 12, 17, 18, 20, 13, 22, 24, 26, 15, 28, 30, 32, 17, 34, 35,
> 19.
>
> Here are the weekly percentage changes: +7%, +7%, -25%, +6%, +6%, +11%, -35%, +10%, +9%, +8%, -
> 42%, +8%, +7%, + 7%, +3%, -74%, -46%.
>
> At the end of the 19th week you continue to hold your training levels until the marathon is 4
> months away. "Once you reach the 10-mile mark of your long run, you can then alternate your long
> run sequence weekly as follows: 8, 9, 10, and then 6-mile long runs." When your planned marathon
> is 4 months away, you follow the schedule at http://www.marathontraining.com/marathon/m_sch_2.html
>
> The marathon training schedule weekly miles are as follows: 34, 36, 18, 38, 41, 43, 20, 42, 38,
> 22, 43, 38, 24, 46, 36, 30, 22, marathon.
>
> The weekly long runs are as follows: 10, 12, 6, 14, 16, 18, 6, 20, 14, 7, 21, 14, 8, 22, 12, 14,
> 10, marathon.
>
> Has anyone here followed this plan? How did it work out for you? There are a few concerns I have
> about the plan. One is that the recovery weeks are a drastic reduction in mileage. During the
> marathon training phase the cut backs are 50% of the previous week. My other concern is that there
> is no speed training. I'm guessing that if you paid for the "personal training" version of the
> plan (requires a minimum payment of $70); Art would work in some speed training based on your
> running ability. Is this more of a first-time-marathoner plan?
>
> I am 46 years old. I have run 4 marathons in the past. One a year from 1996 to 1999. I've finished
> in the 3:40 to 4:00 range. I took almost a 2 year layoff until August of '03. Because of the long
> layoff and weight gain I started back very slowly in order to avoid an injury. I am currently on
> week 15 of the buildup plan. My weight is less than it was before my fastest marathon. I have not
> made any plans for a marathon yet. However, I am considering a fall marathon (Chicago or Marine
> Corps) or a January '05 marathon (Houston). Should I be approaching this as a first- time-
> marathoner? Given my past running history, should I push it a bit and add some speed work to my
> training? Any feedback would be appreciated.
>
> -Phil

[Sam]

--
Sam, glad to be back after a bit of a hiatus. "SwStudio" <shhhh_secrets@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:v%nOb.1410$NH6.61925@read2.cgocable.net...
> "Phil M." <pmarg@charter.net> wrote in message
>
> > There are a few concerns I have about the plan. One is that the recovery weeks are a drastic
> > reduction in mileage. During the marathon training phase the cut backs are 50% of the previous
> > week. My other concern is that there is no speed training. I'm guessing that if you paid for the
> > "personal training" version of the plan (requires a minimum payment of $70); Art would work in
> > some speed training based on your running ability. Is this more of a first-time-marathoner plan?
> >
> > I am 46 years old. I have run 4 marathons in the past. One a year from 1996 to 1999. I've
> > finished in the 3:40 to 4:00 range. I took almost a 2 year layoff until August of '03. Because
> > of the long layoff and weight gain I started back very slowly in order to avoid an injury. I am
> > currently on week 15 of the buildup plan. My weight is less than it was before my fastest
> > marathon. I have not made any plans for a marathon
yet.
> > However, I am considering a fall marathon (Chicago or Marine Corps) or a January '05 marathon
> > (Houston). Should I be approaching this as a first- time-marathoner? Given my past running
> > history, should I push it a bit and add some speed work to my training? Any feedback would be
> > appreciated.
> >
> > -Phil
> >
>
>
> A good way to incorporate some turnover work and a little speed training as well into your
> marathon program is to try something like 10x100m during the middle miles of some of your medium
> long runs... kinda like a structured fartlek. Pete Pfitzinger uses this apporach in his "Advanced
> Marathon Training" book.
>
> I tried it with some success, but I believe you may be better off getting some long-ish fast runs
> in, like 10 - 12km at ½ marathon pace. These runs help remind you of what it's like to run fast,
> and helps you keep the edge, but aren't as hard on the body as a bunch of intervals at high
speed.
>
> --
> David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org
>
a bit of a different take, I like to do these "strides" after a run. The rationale for me is that
you are better able to control things and get a full recovery. The rationale for these is the
recruitment of additional "fast twitch" fibers since the "slow twitch" have fatigued.

[Robert Grumbine]

In article <Xns94737C083F6A5seilogramp@216.77.188.18>,
Phil M. <pmarg@charter.net> wrote:
>Hello rec.runners. I have some questions and concerns concerning my curring running plan. I am now
>following a mileage buildup schedule from "State of the Art Marathon Training" at
>http://www.marathontraining.com/marathon/m_mile.html
>
>Here are the weekly miles: 14, 15, 16, 12, 17, 18, 20, 13, 22, 24, 26, 15, 28, 30, 32, 17, 34, 35,
>19.
>
>Here are the weekly percentage changes: +7%, +7%, -25%, +6%, +6%, +11%, -35%, +10%, +9%, +8%, -42%,
>+8%, +7%, + 7%, +3%, -74%, -46%.

As Donovan suggested, the calendar week is not a precise thing to be looking at. Your body
doesn't really know 7 days as a fundamental unit. In terms of training, 6 weeks is a good
averaging period.

What the program is doing is giving you three weeks of near 10% increase, followed by a light
week. The near-10% is, as we've been repeating (sometimes from the voice of sad experience),
at the high end of increase. The light week is a common recommendation, though it's more usual
(I think) to see it drop back to the first week of the 3 than to be more like half of the 3
weeks earlier.

[snip]

>Has anyone here followed this plan? How did it work out for you? There are a few concerns I have
>about the plan. One is that the recovery weeks are a drastic reduction in mileage. During the
>marathon training phase the cut backs are 50% of the previous week. My other concern is that there
>is no speed training. I'm guessing that if you paid for the "personal training" version of the plan
>(requires a minimum payment of $70); Art would work in some speed training based on your running
>ability. Is this more of a first-time-marathoner plan?

I wouldn't say first-time so much as completion-focussed. As Sam was suggesting, if you want
something tailored to you and your interests, it's time to break out the check book.

>I am 46 years old. I have run 4 marathons in the past. One a year from 1996 to 1999. I've finished
>in the 3:40 to 4:00 range. I took almost a 2 year layoff until August of '03. Because of the long
>layoff and weight gain I started back very slowly in order to avoid an injury. I am currently on
>week 15 of the buildup plan. My weight is less than it was before my fastest marathon. I have not
>made any plans for a marathon yet. However, I am considering a fall marathon (Chicago or Marine
>Corps) or a January '05 marathon (Houston). Should I be approaching this as a first- time-
>marathoner? Given my past running history, should I push it a bit and add some speed work to my
>training? Any feedback would be appreciated.

I'm about to do some similar retraining, and plan on taking it as a first timer. And I ran my most
recent long race in October of '03. (Yes, I'm conservative, usually.)

As to speed work, I'd say that's a conversation between you and your body. Some variety is good,
if only for the mental side of getting out regularly. But you don't mention what prompted the 2
year layoff. If it was medical, great conservatism is probably a good idea.

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this
great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more
abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

[Phil M.]

> What the program is doing is giving you three weeks of near 10% increase, followed by a light
> week. The near-10% is, as we've been repeating (sometimes from the voice of sad experience), at
> the high end of increase. The light week is a common recommendation, though it's more usual (I
> think) to see it drop back to the first week of the 3 than to be more like half of the 3 weeks
> earlier.

That was my concern. The 50% decrease seemed a little drastic. Maybe it's better to err on the side
of caution. I think if the recovery week dropped back to the first week's mileage that wouldn't be
enough recovery. It would allow me to progress faster, but with time on my side and not wanting an
injury, a 30% cut back seems like a good compromise. That will satisfy my obsession while reducing
the risk of injury.

> As to speed work, I'd say that's a conversation between you and your body. Some variety is good,
> if only for the mental side of getting out regularly. But you don't mention what prompted the 2
> year layoff. If it was medical, great conservatism is probably a good idea.

I've ordered the Pete Pfitzinger book "Advanced Marathoning." Based on the reviews and the first 10
pages (viewable on Amazon), this looks like it might work for me. The title is a little
missleading, since it does have a program that peeks at 55 MPW. So I've adjusted my base build up
schedule to ease into the Pfitzinger program so that I can comfortably complete the first week of
marathon training.

There is an article at http://www.runningtimes.com/issues/01julaug/marathon.htm that summarizes
the program

A few years ago I bought Pete's book "Road Racing for Serious Runners." After following his
guidelines I was able to achieve a PB in a 10K and a 5 miler (my last race before dropping out of
the running scene).

I stopped running at the same time I started a new job. I was 100% committed to the job with no time
for myself. I tried to make a few come- backs, but they never amounted to anything, until now. My
problem - I didn't listen to Miyagi-Sensei when he said, "Go find the balance." This time, my
approach was to lose the weight first while walking, then start a walk/run program, then 100%
running. As running takes up more and more of my time, I'm finding the balance.

-Phil

[Sam]

I like Advanced Marathoning; it is more in depth for the marathon training but based on the
principles outlined in Road Racing for Serious Runners. It lays out a daily plan.

If you have a mileage idea that you want to use, you can adjust the plans accordingly.

--
Sam, glad to be back after a bit of a hiatus. "Phil M." <pmarg@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns947B60FD376EAseilogramp@216.77.188.18...
> > What the program is doing is giving you three weeks of near 10% increase, followed by a light
> > week. The near-10% is, as we've been repeating (sometimes from the voice of sad experience),
> > at the high end of increase. The light week is a common recommendation, though it's more usual
> > (I think) to see it drop back to the first week of the 3 than to be more like half of the 3
> > weeks earlier.
>
> That was my concern. The 50% decrease seemed a little drastic. Maybe it's better to err on the
> side of caution. I think if the recovery week dropped back to the first week's mileage that
> wouldn't be enough recovery. It would allow me to progress faster, but with time on my side and
> not wanting an injury, a 30% cut back seems like a good compromise. That will satisfy my obsession
> while reducing the risk of injury.
>
> > As to speed work, I'd say that's a conversation between you and your body. Some variety is
> > good, if only for the mental side of getting out regularly. But you don't mention what
> > prompted the 2 year layoff. If it was medical, great conservatism is probably a good idea.
>
> I've ordered the Pete Pfitzinger book "Advanced Marathoning." Based on the reviews and the first
> 10 pages (viewable on Amazon), this looks like it might work for me. The title is a little
> missleading, since it does have a program that peeks at 55 MPW. So I've adjusted my base build up
> schedule to ease into the Pfitzinger program so that I can comfortably complete the first week of
> marathon training.
>
> There is an article at http://www.runningtimes.com/issues/01julaug/marathon.htm that summarizes
> the program
>
> A few years ago I bought Pete's book "Road Racing for Serious Runners." After following his
> guidelines I was able to achieve a PB in a 10K and a 5 miler (my last race before dropping out of
> the running scene).
>
> I stopped running at the same time I started a new job. I was 100% committed to the job with no
> time for myself. I tried to make a few come- backs, but they never amounted to anything, until
> now. My problem - I didn't listen to Miyagi-Sensei when he said, "Go find the balance." This time,
> my approach was to lose the weight first while walking, then start a walk/run program, then 100%
> running. As running takes up more and more of my time, I'm finding the balance.
>
> -Phil

[ahass]

Look at the programs on the Boston Marathon website. I had good luck with them as a newbie, and they
can easily be extrapolated to a wide range of skill levels. Andy Hass

[Phil M.]

ahass@dontspamumich.edu wrote in news:IMbSb.1364$Nz2.29012
@news.itd.umich.edu:

>
> Look at the programs on the Boston Marathon website. I had good luck with them as a newbie, and
> they can easily be extrapolated to a wide range of skill levels. Andy Hass
>

Thanks. I'm already reading and trying "Advanced Marathoning" by Pete Pfitzinger and Scott Douglas.

-Phi