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Truly Canadian Experience
After the brutal cold of last week (-45C) with the wind chill here in Ontario (and lots of treadmill
miles--got caught up on my soaps), yesterday felt downright balmy at -15C so it was time to get
outside and get some long slow miles in for my upcoming marathon in early March--At 1 hour 23
minutes into my run my water bottle was like a "Slushy" and at 2 hours it was too frozen to drink at
all! I have never had this happen before, I guess the windchill was still there. Oh well, it shows
how good my new tech winter running clothes were as I really did not feel at all except for my face--
Diane
"Doc" <stevew@netrover.spmblkr.com> wrote in message
news:iXwOb.1132$Ja2.14521@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> After the brutal cold of last week (-45C) with the wind chill here in Ontario (and lots of
> treadmill miles--got caught up on my soaps),
yesterday
> felt downright balmy at -15C so it was time to get outside and get some
long
> slow miles in for my upcoming marathon in early March--At 1 hour 23
minutes
> into my run my water bottle was like a "Slushy" and at 2 hours it was too frozen to drink at all!
> I have never had this happen before, I guess the windchill was still there. Oh well, it shows how
> good my new tech winter running clothes were as I really did not feel at all except for my face--
>
> Diane
>
Windchill has no affect on the freezing point of water. :-)
Perdy.
Yah... I've had my water freeze on me on occasion... sucks eh? Maybe if I added a little alcohol to
it it wouldn't freeze ;-) I hear yah on the break in the Arctic conditions too... it's +5C here in
Halifax today!!!!! Woo Hoo! That cold snap was brutal.
--
Nova Scotia, Canada
In article <bue9ms$gfk0q$1@ID-102047.news.uni-berlin.de>,
"Perdy Tired" <sleeping@night.com> wrote:
> "Doc" <stevew@netrover.spmblkr.com> wrote in message news:iXwOb.1132$Ja2.14521@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> > After the brutal cold of last week (-45C) with the wind chill here in Ontario (and lots of
> > treadmill miles--got caught up on my soaps),
> yesterday
> > felt downright balmy at -15C so it was time to get outside and get some
> long
> > slow miles in for my upcoming marathon in early March--At 1 hour 23
> minutes
> > into my run my water bottle was like a "Slushy" and at 2 hours it was too frozen to drink at
> > all! I have never had this happen before, I guess the windchill was still there. Oh well, it
> > shows how good my new tech winter running clothes were as I really did not feel at all except
> > for my face--
> >
> > Diane
> >
>
> Windchill has no affect on the freezing point of water. :-)
>
> Perdy.
you could fill your bottle with room temperature or even warm water before heading out. it'll cool
down for you in time (which you want since cool water is more readily absorbed into the body's
systems), and would take longer to freeze.
just a strange little thought which i myself have never tried.
cam
I did fill my bottle with warmer water as I thought the water would get really cold but it
still froze.
My next point to a previous reply.... of course wind chill has an effect on the freezing point of
water--wind CHILL--you get it--your skin freezes so fast because it is contains the most water of
all your organs. Stop spouting off old wives tales.
Perdy Tired of non-scientific answers.
d."onemarathon" <cam_wilson@NOSPAMsympatico.ca> wrote in message news:cam_wilson-A51EB3.15301918012004@nr-
ott02.bellnexxia.net...
> In article <bue9ms$gfk0q$1@ID-102047.news.uni-berlin.de>, "Perdy Tired"
> <sleeping@night.com> wrote:
>
> > "Doc" <stevew@netrover.spmblkr.com> wrote in message news:iXwOb.1132$Ja2.14521@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> > > After the brutal cold of last week (-45C) with the wind chill here in Ontario (and lots of
> > > treadmill miles--got caught up on my soaps),
> > yesterday
> > > felt downright balmy at -15C so it was time to get outside and get
some
> > long
> > > slow miles in for my upcoming marathon in early March--At 1 hour 23
> > minutes
> > > into my run my water bottle was like a "Slushy" and at 2 hours it was
too
> > > frozen to drink at all! I have never had this happen before, I guess
the
> > > windchill was still there. Oh well, it shows how good my new tech
winter
> > > running clothes were as I really did not feel at all except for my
face--
> > >
> > > Diane
> > >
> >
> > Windchill has no affect on the freezing point of water. :-)
> >
> > Perdy.
>
> you could fill your bottle with room temperature or even warm water before heading out. it'll cool
> down for you in time (which you want since cool water is more readily absorbed into the body's
> systems), and would take longer to freeze.
>
> just a strange little thought which i myself have never tried.
>
> cam
In article <oDHOb.1355$Ja2.17461@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,
"Doc" <stevew@netrover.spmblkr.com> wrote:
> I did fill my bottle with warmer water as I thought the water would get really cold but it
> still froze.
>
> My next point to a previous reply.... of course wind chill has an effect on the freezing point of
> water--wind CHILL--you get it--your skin freezes so fast because it is contains the most water of
> all your organs. Stop spouting off old wives tales.
>
> Perdy Tired of non-scientific answers.
>
Wind chill has no effect on the freezing point of water. Period.
The fresszing point of water is 0 degrees celsius. The wind could be going 150 mph at 0.1 degree
celsius, and the water will not freeze.
Wind chill refers to the fact that things cool faster in the wind; the rapid movement of the air
accelerates cooling. A water bottle of 30 C water will freeze faster in a 20 mph wind than in a 10
mph wind or in no wind, provided the absolute temperature is 0 C or below. But if the absolute temp
is - 5 C and the wind chill is - 30 C, the bottle will never get any colder than -5 C.
Pretty tired of people who spout off against non-scientific answers without understanding science.
--Harold Buck
"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."
- Homer J. Simpson
At -15C, the simplest trick to keep the water coming is to store the waterbottle upsidedown in its
carrier. At -30C, that won't work for very long. You need a well insulated carrier for that.
Sorry Doc, not an old wives tale. Wind chill has ABSOLUTELY NO effect on the freezing point of
water. Wind chill only applies to humans and animals...
http://www.weatherworks.com/monthly/q_and_a/answer_windchill.html
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/windchill/windchillglossary.shtml
http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/Billings/talk/talk38.shtml
http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/conversion/windchillchart.html http://www.wrel.com/windchill.htm
Need more science.... I could continue? ;-)
Water freezes at 32F or 0C, regardless of wind chill. Above that temperature, it will NOT freeze,
and below that it WILL. Wind chill index is a measure of the rate of heat loss. Water may freeze
faster when there is a wind chill factor, but in the case of your water bottle, there will be less
wind affect due to the bottle itself, and possibly your carrier. Agitation can also be a factor.
Dave's alcohol solution may help... although you may not be able to stagger home if you
overdo it? ;-)
Perdy.
"Doc" <stevew@netrover.spmblkr.com> wrote in message news:oDHOb.1355$Ja2.17461@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> I did fill my bottle with warmer water as I thought the water would get really cold but it
> still froze.
>
> My next point to a previous reply.... of course wind chill has an effect
on
> the freezing point of water--wind CHILL--you get it--your skin freezes so fast because it is
> contains the most water of all your organs. Stop spouting off old wives tales.
>
> Perdy Tired of non-scientific answers.
>
> d."onemarathon" <cam_wilson@NOSPAMsympatico.ca> wrote in message news:cam_wilson-A51EB3.15301918012004@nr-
> ott02.bellnexxia.net...
> > In article <bue9ms$gfk0q$1@ID-102047.news.uni-berlin.de>, "Perdy Tired" <sleeping@night.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > "Doc" <stevew@netrover.spmblkr.com> wrote in message
> > > news:iXwOb.1132$Ja2.14521@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> > > > After the brutal cold of last week (-45C) with the wind chill here
in
> > > > Ontario (and lots of treadmill miles--got caught up on my soaps),
> > > yesterday
> > > > felt downright balmy at -15C so it was time to get outside and get
> some
> > > long
> > > > slow miles in for my upcoming marathon in early March--At 1 hour 23
> > > minutes
> > > > into my run my water bottle was like a "Slushy" and at 2 hours it
was
> too
> > > > frozen to drink at all! I have never had this happen before, I guess
> the
> > > > windchill was still there. Oh well, it shows how good my new tech
> winter
> > > > running clothes were as I really did not feel at all except for my
> face--
> > > >
> > > > Diane
> > > >
> > >
> > > Windchill has no affect on the freezing point of water. :-)
> > >
> > > Perdy.
> >
> > you could fill your bottle with room temperature or even warm water before heading out. it'll
> > cool down for you in time (which you want since cool water is more readily absorbed into the
> > body's systems), and would take longer to freeze.
> >
> > just a strange little thought which i myself have never tried.
> >
> > cam
> I did fill my bottle with warmer water as I thought the water would get really cold but it
> still froze.
>
> My next point to a previous reply.... of course wind chill has an effect
on
> the freezing point of water--wind CHILL--you get it--your skin freezes so
Re: freezing point of water
It's a minefield for a layman to use these terms, since they have very specific meanings by
convention. Perhaps, you mean that the wind will cause the water to freeze sooner, as it speeds heat
loss. If so, then the posters would agree with your intent.
> fast because it is contains the most water of all your organs. Stop spouting off old wives tales.
>
> Perdy Tired of non-scientific answers.
Reminds me of our fearless leader defending his spin by claiming moral rectitude. He who shouts the
loudest and appears most scientific, is "right", assuming anyone listens. In this instance, those
"non-scientific" answers may make a good scientific point, but you could not be expected to
appreciate that unless you had also been indoctrinated with the proper terminology. Though if you
are insistent enough, right or wrong, or you share the same race as the jury, then you may prevail
in a court.
>
> d."onemarathon" <cam_wilson@NOSPAMsympatico.ca> wrote in message news:cam_wilson-A51EB3.15301918012004@nr-
> ott02.bellnexxia.net...
> > In article <bue9ms$gfk0q$1@ID-102047.news.uni-berlin.de>, "Perdy Tired" <sleeping@night.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > "Doc" <stevew@netrover.spmblkr.com> wrote in message
> > > news:iXwOb.1132$Ja2.14521@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> > > > After the brutal cold of last week (-45C) with the wind chill here
in
> > > > Ontario (and lots of treadmill miles--got caught up on my soaps),
> > > yesterday
> > > > felt downright balmy at -15C so it was time to get outside and get
> some
> > > long
> > > > slow miles in for my upcoming marathon in early March--At 1 hour 23
> > > minutes
> > > > into my run my water bottle was like a "Slushy" and at 2 hours it
was
> too
> > > > frozen to drink at all! I have never had this happen before, I guess
> the
> > > > windchill was still there. Oh well, it shows how good my new tech
> winter
> > > > running clothes were as I really did not feel at all except for my
> face--
> > > >
> > > > Diane
> > > >
> > >
> > > Windchill has no affect on the freezing point of water. :-)
> > >
> > > Perdy.
> >
> > you could fill your bottle with room temperature or even warm water before heading out. it'll
> > cool down for you in time (which you want since cool water is more readily absorbed into the
> > body's systems), and would take longer to freeze.
> >
> > just a strange little thought which i myself have never tried.
> >
> > cam
Doc wrote:
>My next point to a previous reply.... of course wind chill has an effect on the freezing point of
>water--wind CHILL--you get it--your skin freezes so fast because it is contains the most water of
>all your organs. Stop spouting off old wives tales.
>
>
Twaddle. The water in your skin isn't the problem with wind chill. The problem is because the wind
blows away the warm layer of air around our bodies. The rate of heat dissipation decreases when the
temperature difference is smaller. Removing that warm air and replacing it with colder air
increases the temperature difference between our bodies and the air it is in contact with, and thus
allows heat dissipation to occur at a higher rate - a rate equivalent to the absolute temperature
being lower.
Wind chill is an important device for warning people about the dangers that might face from frost-
bite. In reality though, it is pretty variable measure that doesn't mean what people assume it to. I
get the impression that people like wind chill numbers because it makes sound impressive in their
descriptions of the environment they've been out in
- it's a form of boasting or showing off, or something.
Malc
In article <kNXOb.5676$U77.513158@news20.bellglobal.com>,
Malcolm Ferguson <Malcolm_Ferguson@NO_SPAM_PLEASEyahoo.com> wrote:
> Wind chill is an important device for warning people about the dangers that might face from frost-
> bite. In reality though, it is pretty variable measure that doesn't mean what people assume it to.
> I get the impression that people like wind chill numbers because it makes sound impressive in
> their descriptions of the environment they've been out in
> - it's a form of boasting or showing off, or something.
It's particularly amusing that the old formula for calculating assumed that you were a 20-foot-tall
cylinder, or something like that. I think there's a new formula these days.
But, yeah, it does sound more impressive to say, "I went out in -90 F wind chill," than it does to
say, "I went out on a windy day that was -30."
--Harold Buck
"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."
- Homer J. Simpson
Malcolm Ferguson <Malcolm_Ferguson@NO_SPAM_PLEASEyahoo.com> wrote in
news:kNXOb.5676$U77.513158@news20.bellglobal.com:
> Wind chill is an important device for warning people about the dangers that might face from frost-
> bite. In reality though, it is pretty variable measure that doesn't mean what people assume it to.
> I get the impression that people like wind chill numbers because it makes sound impressive in
> their descriptions of the environment they've been out in
> - it's a form of boasting or showing off, or something.
The wind chill probably doesn't mean as much to a runner as the heat index does. If you aren't
running naked, then the wind chill factor is not much of a factor. However, the heat index is
difficult to overcome.
-Phil
In article <Xns9475C3ADA3D7Cseilogramp@216.77.188.18>,
"Phil M." <pmarg@charter.net> wrote:
> Malcolm Ferguson <Malcolm_Ferguson@NO_SPAM_PLEASEyahoo.com> wrote in
> news:kNXOb.5676$U77.513158@news20.bellglobal.com:
>
> > Wind chill is an important device for warning people about the dangers that might face from frost-
> > bite. In reality though, it is pretty variable measure that doesn't mean what people assume it
> > to. I get the impression that people like wind chill numbers because it makes sound impressive
> > in their descriptions of the environment they've been out in
> > - it's a form of boasting or showing off, or something.
>
> The wind chill probably doesn't mean as much to a runner as the heat index does. If you aren't
> running naked, then the wind chill factor is not much of a factor. However, the heat index is
> difficult to overcome.
This brings up a question: how's the work on the charter for rec.running.naked going? And will there
be binary posts?
--Harold Buck
"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."
- Homer J. Simpson
Malcolm Ferguson wrote:
>
> Wind chill is an important device for warning people about the dangers that might face from frost-
> bite. In reality though, it is pretty variable measure that doesn't mean what people assume it to.
It's got some of the same problems that any index calculated from multiple variables has - it sorta
means something, but the individual components mean far more.
A couple weeks ago we had some strong winds (30-45mph, higher gusts) with temps about 0 to +12F with
windchill about -14F, iirc from the weather web page, but I may not have checked at the right time.
Last few days it's been calm with temps about -20F. And yes, I ran or snowshoe walk/ran twice in
both sets of conditions (windier or colder at other times). Although these appear different, within
rounding error of where the temperatures were taken, etc, they're probably similar numerically - but
the two sets of conditions have very different impacts on running. If anything, I would have guessed
frostbite was more likely with the windy conditions since it would bite through anything except good
wind gear. As you mention, windchill is about dangers of frostbite, and for running, the individual
components are more critical.
In my log, I generally record temperature - since that's what affects snow consistency, fluids
freezing, and clothing. I record wind speeds and direction (approx) since that can affect forward
motion, drifting snow, and what clothing layers worked. I also log my clothing layers. Occasionally
(like 1 or 2 times in 2 years of logging), I record wind chill in the comments section for
curiosity, but it doesn't mean as much as its two components, IMHO.
And blame the detail all on Doug :) He's the one that suggested detailed logging, although without
decimal points.
Dot Beware of leaving slimfast in your car for 3 hrs at -25F and then drinking it right after coming
out of warm cross-training session. Not sure if that stuff supercools, but it sure caught my
attention Saturday.
--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
> In my log, I generally record temperature - since that's what affects snow consistency, fluids
> freezing, and clothing. I record wind speeds and direction (approx) since that can affect forward
> motion, drifting snow, and what clothing layers worked. I also log my clothing layers.
> Occasionally (like 1 or 2 times in 2 years of logging), I record wind chill in the comments
> section for curiosity, but it doesn't mean as much as its two components, IMHO.
I record both temperature and windchill in my log, and generally (in cold weather) reference the
windchill figure for clothing selection far more often than the temperature alone. For me, I find
the windchill to be far more accurate representation of the running conditions. Then again, there's
some days when I am still way off?
Rip.
"Doc" <stevew@netrover.spmblkr.com> wrote in message news:<iXwOb.1132$Ja2.14521@nnrp1.uunet.ca>...
> After the brutal cold of last week (-45C) with the wind chill here in Ontario (and lots of
> treadmill miles--got caught up on my soaps), yesterday felt downright balmy at -15C so it was time
> to get outside and get some long slow miles in for my upcoming marathon in early March--At 1 hour
> 23 minutes into my run my water bottle was like a "Slushy" and at 2 hours it was too frozen to
> drink at all! I have never had this happen before, I guess the windchill was still there. Oh well,
> it shows how good my new tech winter running clothes were as I really did not feel at all except
> for my face--
>
> Diane
You should carry it between those heaving love-jugs, that'll keep it warm.
How can it be a truly Canadian experience when you never mentioned binge drinking or smoking
cigarettes like a chimney?
Re: Truly Canadian Experience ...is to get drunk, puke chunks,and go to sleep in a puddle of
your own puke.
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