Cross worlds

[Tritonrider]

Well we got our ass kicked in both the U-23 and Junior races. I thought we'd do better but I guess
it's pretty clear who the contenders and pretenders are. I thought we'd be top 20 in U-23 and top 10
in Juniors. We really need to rethink how good the competition is here. Bill C

[B. Lafferty]

And a BIG thank you to USAC for all of their support for 'cross. God bless them.

"TritonRider" <tritonrider@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040131171221.21850.00000773@mb-
m22.aol.com...
> Well we got our ass kicked in both the U-23 and Junior races. I thought
we'd
> do better but I guess it's pretty clear who the contenders and pretenders
are.
> I thought we'd be top 20 in U-23 and top 10 in Juniors. We really need
to
> rethink how good the competition is here. Bill C

[Wade Summers]

"TritonRider" <tritonrider@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040131171221.21850.00000773@mb-m22.aol.com...
> Well we got our ass kicked in both the U-23 and Junior races. I thought
we'd
> do better but I guess it's pretty clear who the contenders and pretenders
are.
> I thought we'd be top 20 in U-23 and top 10 in Juniors. We really need
to
> rethink how good the competition is here. Bill C
>
>

What made you think they would get those results? Did one U23 or Jr crack the top 20 in any other
European race they did? All of a sudden they are going to get top 20 or top 10(!!) in THE big Euro
race... I don't think we can't expect our young guys to get those kind of results racing here and
doing a handful of races over there leading up to Worlds. At minimum, I would think they could race
here until Nats but then they have to plant themselves in Europe from mid Dec through Worlds. I
don't know what Kelly did when he won the Jrs, but he was a special talent. Didn't Johnson base
himself in Switzerland for quite a while the year he did well?

Wade

[Dan Connelly]

Wade Summers wrote:
> "TritonRider" <tritonrider@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040131171221.21850.00000773@mb-
> m22.aol.com...
>
>>Well we got our ass kicked in both the U-23 and Junior races. I thought
>
> we'd
>
>>do better but I guess it's pretty clear who the contenders and pretenders
>
> are.
>
>> I thought we'd be top 20 in U-23 and top 10 in Juniors. We really need
>
> to
>
>>rethink how good the competition is here. Bill C
>>
>>
>
>
> What made you think they would get those results? Did one U23 or Jr crack the top 20 in any other
> European race they did?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/cross.php?id=cross/2004/jan04/zonnebeke04

> All of a sudden they are going to get top 20 or top 10(!!) in THE big Euro race... I don't think
> we can't expect our young guys to get those kind of results racing here and doing a handful of
> races over there leading up to Worlds. At minimum, I would think they could race here until Nats
> but then they have to plant themselves in Europe from mid Dec through Worlds. I don't know what
> Kelly did when he won the Jrs, but he was a special talent. Didn't Johnson base himself in
> Switzerland for quite a while the year he did well?
>

Exactly -- no domestic-based male rider can crack the top 20, given the depth and number of
races on which the Europeans are honing their form and fitness. In women, the European
competition is a lot less.

Dan

[Andrew Swan]

TritonRider wrote:
> Well we got our ass kicked in both the U-23 and Junior races. I thought we'd do better but I
> guess it's pretty clear who the contenders and pretenders are. I thought we'd be top 20 in U-23
> and top 10 in Juniors. We really need to rethink how good the competition is here. Bill C

And "we" would be ... left-handed people ... Baptists? ... cat lovers? ... Volvo drivers? ... RBR
readers? ... geography students?

&roo

[Tritonrider]

>From: Andrew Swan usenet@SPAMMERSandrewMUSTswanDIE.com

>And "we" would be ... left-handed people ... Baptists? ... cat lovers? ... Volvo drivers? ... RBR
>readers? ... geography students?
>
>&roo

Those of us who work for 'Cross here in the US. The people who donate time, money, and effort to
help races happen, help racers get over there, and generally do what we can to help make things
better and smoother for our racers. Got a problem with that? Bill C

[Wayne]

" I don't know what Kelly did when he won the Jrs, but he was a special talent."

I seem to recall him saying he rode his trainer indoors for fitness and had a circuit in the
snow/ice around the family farm in Wisconsin that he did for technique. Probably the latter was
ideal preparation for the worlds that year.

Wayne

[Wayne]

> Exactly -- no domestic-based male rider can crack the top 20, given the depth and number of races
> on which the Europeans are honing their form and fitness. In women, the European competition is a
> lot less.
>
> Dan

All the honing of form and fitness in the world isn't going to make up the 5+ minutes these guys are
off the pace. It starts with talent and as the women show if you have the talent you'll be
competitive.

Wayne

[Wade Summers]

"Wayne" <wscott@udel.edu> wrote in message
news:de90a9b6.0402010815.31be9151@posting.google.com...
> " I don't know what Kelly did when he won the Jrs, but he was a special talent."
>
> I seem to recall him saying he rode his trainer indoors for fitness and had a circuit in the
> snow/ice around the family farm in Wisconsin that he did for technique. Probably the latter was
> ideal preparation for the worlds that year.
>
> Wayne

That's along the lines of what I had heard as well. I also heard, and this could be urban legend,
that he kept a poster of Sven Vanthourenhout in front of him while riding the trainer.
Vanthourenhout was the odds on favorite to win the Jr title that year.

Wade

[Wayne]

> I also heard, and this could be urban legend, that he kept a poster of Sven Vanthourenhout in
> front of him while riding the trainer. Vanthourenhout was the odds on favorite to win the Jr title
> that year.
>
> Wade

Yeah and now Sven has a bronze in the elites and Kelly has been AWOL for the last 3 years or so. USA
cycling could start improving cyclocross by making sure that the people with talent stick with it
(like Kelly and Johnson).

[Jim Gravity]

wscott@udel.edu (Wayne) wrote in message news:<de90a9b6.0402010819.630a9cab@posting.google.com>...
> > Exactly -- no domestic-based male rider can crack the top 20, given the depth and number of
> > races on which the Europeans are honing their form and fitness. In women, the European
> > competition is a lot less.
> >
> > Dan
>
> All the honing of form and fitness in the world isn't going to make up the 5+ minutes these guys
> are off the pace. It starts with talent and as the women show if you have the talent you'll be
> competitive.
>
> Wayne

And start position.

[Dan Connelly]

Wayne wrote:
>>Exactly -- no domestic-based male rider can crack the top 20, given the depth and number of races
>>on which the Europeans are honing their form and fitness. In women, the European competition is a
>>lot less.
>>
>>Dan
>
>
> All the honing of form and fitness in the world isn't going to make up the 5+ minutes these guys
> are off the pace. It starts with talent and as the women show if you have the talent you'll be
> competitive.
>

Nonsense. The US women are more competitive because the Euro women are less competitive.
VeloNews, in their web coverage of Worlds, point out there are no top-level cross specialists
among women in Europe.

The women's results prove nothing.

Dan

[Wayne]

Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message news:<pcvTb.8831$wY3.1419@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>...
> Wayne wrote:
> >>Exactly -- no domestic-based male rider can crack the top 20, given the depth and number of
> >>races on which the Europeans are honing their form and fitness. In women, the European
> >>competition is a lot less.
> >>
> >>Dan
> >
> >
> > All the honing of form and fitness in the world isn't going to make up the 5+ minutes these guys
> > are off the pace. It starts with talent and as the women show if you have the talent you'll be
> > competitive.
> >
>
> Nonsense. The US women are more competitive because the Euro women are less competitive.
> VeloNews, in their web coverage of Worlds, point out there are no top-level cross specialists
> among women in Europe.
>
> The women's results prove nothing.
>
> Dan

It proves that if you have ability relatively equal to the top racers in your class you'll be
competitive at the international level. Our top female cross racer isn't a cross specialist
either (Dunlap). OTOH, Van den Brand could be considered a cross specialist even if most of the
others are not.

Look at Page, sure he's gotten better (and some of that may simply be due to maturity not being in
Europe specifically) the last couple of years but he's not gotten 5 minutes faster being in Europe!

[Dan Connelly]

Wayne wrote:
> Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
> news:<pcvTb.8831$wY3.1419@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>...
>
>>Nonsense. The US women are more competitive because the Euro women are less competitive.
>>VeloNews, in their web coverage of Worlds, point out there are no top-level cross specialists
>>among women in Europe.
>>
>>The women's results prove nothing.
>>
>>Dan
>
>
> It proves that if you have ability relatively equal to the top racers in your class you'll be
> competitive at the international level. Our top female cross racer isn't a cross specialist either
> (Dunlap). OTOH, Van den Brand could be considered a cross specialist even if most of the others
> are not.
>
> Look at Page, sure he's gotten better (and some of that may simply be due to maturity not
> being in Europe specifically) the last couple of years but he's not gotten 5 minutes faster
> being in Europe!

Since going to Europe, Page has made the US competition look silly. Sure, he's not at the level of
Wellens. But then neither are most non-Belgians. Roger Hammond's been racing 'cross on the mainland
since the Bronze Age, yet hasn't been doing (until Worlds) really any better than Page this year.
But who says Page has the talent of the Euros?

My point is, if US riders had access to a Belgian-class 'cross racing schedule, we'd do a lot better
internationally. Riding a domestic calendar isn't going to do it. I still claim the Euro women don't
have the advantage on the racing calendar the Euro men do. The men are racing, what, 4 times per
week w/ top quality fields? Do women in Europe have this?

Geoff Proctor recently led a training camp in Europe where he had riders race 11 times in 11 days:
http://www.bike.com/template.asp?date=1%2F29%2F2004&page=2&lsectionnumber=4&lsectionname=Spoken+Wor-
d&lsectiondirectory=spoken Where can you even race 6 times in 11 days in the US? You can no more be
competitive against that type of competitive environment than you can win the Tour having raced the
winter-spring in the US.

Dan

[Andrew Swan]

TritonRider wrote:
>>From: Andrew Swan usenet@SPAMMERSandrewMUSTswanDIE.com
>
>
>>And "we" would be ... left-handed people ... Baptists? ... cat lovers? ... Volvo drivers? ... RBR
>>readers? ... geography students?
>>
>>&roo
>
>
> Those of us who work for 'Cross here in the US. The people who donate time, money, and effort to
> help races happen, help racers get over there, and generally do what we can to help make things
> better and smoother for our racers. Got a problem with that? Bill C

Ah, the US. That was the vital bit of information missing from your original post (not knowing you
personally, I had no idea who you were talking about).

&roo