rec.running war stories: battle scars

[Donovan Rebbech]

After starting on a positive note, I'm following up with a
more sobering war stories thread. But I hope this thread
will prove in some ways uplifting, and include stories not
just of injury, but of triumph over injury.

My rationale for posting this thread is especially to gather
a body of knowledge on how people dealt with injuries, how
they came out of it. Preventation has been discussed to
death, but people who are injured would no doubt like to
believe that they will, some day, be able to run again, and
the tales of those who fought their battle and won will
hopefully prove inspiring.

I'm hoping for an emphasis on treatment/rehab, because
prevention, training errors, etc have been discussed to
death (I've put questions on these in anyway, but I think
rehab is a more interesting topic). We already know that a
beginner attempting to emulate people like Zatopek and
Lindgren is likely to encounter problems.

Like almost any competitive runner, I've had my battle
wounds, and it really sucked. Getting through it was a long
and demoralising process, but thankfully there was an end
to it all.

If you've sustained multiple injuries in your career, you
may wish to either follow up to this post twice, or once.
Whatever you like. Here are some questions to start the
discussion:

Basic questions: (*) What was the injury ? (*) When did you
first notice the symptoms ? (*) When did you realise you
actually had an injury ?

Questions that are important IMO: (*) When did you begin
treatment ? (*) What sort of treatment did you use ? (*) How
did you approach rehab ? (*) How long was it before symptoms
completely disappeared ? (*) Given 20/20 hindsight, would
you approach treatment and rehab differently ? If so, how ?

Moderately interesting questions (but less important because
causes of injury have already been discussed to death here):
(*) Was it preceeded by any warning signs ? (*) Was it
preceeded by ill-advised training ? Or any training that was
" ill-advised" given 20/20 hindsight ? (*) Was footwear a
contributing factor ?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <slrnc4s048.8hn.abuse@panix2.panix.com>, Donovan Rebbechi wrote:

> Basic questions: (*) What was the injury ?

Achilles tendonitis.

> (*) When did you first notice the symptoms ?

First logged in about Nov 02.

> (*) When did you realise you actually had an injury ?

Didn't really think of it as an "injury" until some time
in January.

> Questions that are important IMO: (*) When did you begin
> treatment ?

Didn't substantially reduce milage until March, but I was
icing it using a gel pack before then, in Feb or so, I
think. I don't think I took any layoff until March.

Taking a one week layoff much earlier would have probably
saved me a lot of trouble. As it was, I spent a good 6
months with fairly erratic training, because I wasn't able
to train properly. It took a solid 6 week layoff to really
make inroads into the injury.

Achilles tendonitis does not hurt in proportion to the
damage, so even though the pain is very soft and dull, the
healing time for the injury can be quite long and the damage
can be reasonably severe.

> (*) What sort of treatment did you use ?

Ice, reduced training load, and rest in that order. The two
things that aggravated the injury most were long runs and
speed work. A long run at a brisk pace would cause the most
severe flare-ups of the injury.

I also used a heel-lift when I returned to training.

I cannot say with a great deal of confidence that any of the
treatments I used with the exception of hard downtime had
much effect. However, it is possible that a modest amount of
milage with no speed work would not have been much different
from rest.

Given the success I had in treating another soft-tissue
injury (with a short but immediate rest), I think I would
have done much better if I'd got on top of it earlier.

> (*) How did you approach rehab ?

Periodically attempted to return to running, and took
downtime if it hadn't recovered. Started by doing a weekly
run until it felt OK. Then jumped right back into hard
training, then came to my senses and set appropriate
milage goals.

> (*) How long was it before symptoms completely
> disappeared ?

The injury originally came in late 2002, and the sensation
of the achilles tendon being sore when I got out of bed -- I
still have it from time to time. But it doesn't interfere
with my training any more. In total, it took about 9 months,
though it could have been much faster had I been more
willing to accept downtime.

> (*) Given 20/20 hindsight, would you approach treatment
> and rehab differently ? If so, how ?

Rest for a week. Immediately.

> Moderately interesting questions (but less important
> because causes of injury have already been discussed to
> death here): (*) Was it preceeded by any warning signs ?

Not really.

> (*) Was it preceeded by ill-advised training ? Or any
> training that was " ill-advised" given 20/20 hindsight ?

Running 5k at top speed for a week and doing intervals
regularly .... probably ill-advised for a beginner.

> (*) Was footwear a contributing factor ?

My shoes were not a very good choice for me (NB 806), but
they're what the local FootLocker had, and I doubt they had
much to do with my AT problems.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Topcounsel]

>I've had my battle wounds, and it really sucked.

Good thread idea. Donovan, please be sure to post a summary
of your own experience with achilles troubles (I think it
was), as this is surely one of the more common things which
bothers runners as they increase their speed, and sure to be
valuable reading.

[Lyndon]

>it. Preventation has been discussed to death, but people
> who are injured would no doubt like to believe that
> they will, some day, be able to run again, and the
> tales of those who fought their battle and won will
> hopefully prove inspiring.
>
>I'm hoping for an emphasis on treatment/rehab, because
>prevention, training errors, etc have been discussed to
>death (I've put questions on these in anyway, but I think
>rehab is a more interesting topic). We already know that a
>beginner attempting to emulate people like Zatopek and
>Lindgren is likely to encounter problems.
>
>Like almost any competitive runner, I've had my battle
>wounds, and it really sucked. Getting through it was a long
>and demoralising process, but thankfully there was an end
>to it all.
>
>If you've sustained multiple injuries in your career, you
>may wish to either follow up to this post twice, or once.
>Whatever you like. Here are some questions to start the
>discussion:
>
>Basic questions: (*) What was the injury ?

Hairline fracture of small bone in my right foot.

>(*) When did you first notice the symptoms ?

Sharp pain in upper part of foot in the middle of 8-miler.
Walked home the last 4 miles, but the pain went away.

>(*) When did you realise you actually had an injury ?

This was very frustrating--I wasn't sure if there WAS an
injury for weeks. I could run without pain in the beginning,
then after 1/2 mile or so, I would hurt progressively more.
Resting a few days helped.
>
>Questions that are important IMO: (*) When did you begin
>treatment ?

Maybe 6 weeks after resting-running-resting, I went to a
podiatrist.

>(*) What sort of treatment did you use ?

No running for 8 weeks.

>(*) How did you approach rehab ?

Cross-training on exercise bike: Intervals. This
maintained leg strength and anerobic power (400 speed) but
not aerobic ability.

>(*) How long was it before symptoms completely
>disappeared ?

I ran 10 miles my first week back running. Re-entry pace was
8:00: This sucked.
>(*) Given 20/20 hindsight, would you approach treatment and
>rehab differently ?

YES.

>If so, how ?

I would have gone to the podiatrist after 2 weeks of
problems. I made the withdrawal from training almost twice
as bad by sitting on my ass and not getting the thing
looked at. This is an IMPORTANT less and the reason I'm
writing this.
>
>Moderately interesting questions (but less important
>because causes of injury have already been discussed to
>death here): (*) Was it preceeded by any warning signs ?

Nike training shoes (not spikes) that caused medial
shinsplints. The warning that Nike training shoes suck was
not understood.

>(*) Was it preceeded by ill-advised training ? Or any
>training that was " ill-advised" given 20/20 hindsight ?

No.

>(*) Was footwear a contributing factor ?

This was the cause: Nike training shoes. Air Skylon Triax
that were later recalled by Nike. My podiatrist told me that
the injury would not have happened in shoes with adequate
midfoot cushioning. This was in 1995-1996. I have been with
Adidas almost ever since and have never had another problem.

Lyndon "Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!"
--US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

[Mr Slippery Spa]

On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:36:08 +0000 (UTC), Donovan Rebbechi
<abuse@aol.com> wrote:

>After starting on a positive note, I'm following up with a
>more sobering war stories thread. But I hope this thread
>will prove in some ways uplifting, and include stories not
>just of injury, but of triumph over injury.

Another request for a war story? Yet this one appears to
seek a more reflective and sober analysis of events. Ah
well, I do tend towards the mushy when looking back on those
halcyon days, so remember, you did ask...

I have no visible scars to remind me of my courage and
valour <splutter, guffaw> during my three years of military
service. Like most happy souls who survive a war, my scars
tend towards the mental. Fear not, I shan't regale you with
gory tales, or stories of tragedy, or pathos, or futility,
though there are many I could tell, and many more I wish I
could forget. I'll recall the one abiding memory of that
time that's stayed with me all these years, and it has the
same meaning today as it did the moment it happened.

The places and names don't matter, so I won't go into
detail. Suffice to say we were mopping up after another unit
had successfully contacted and 'sent to a better place' many
Angry Guys. There were three wounded - not too badly - on
our side and about 7 or 8 (I can't remember) dead and one
seriously wounded guy on the opposite team.

An Alouette medivac helicopter had landed and the medics
were discussing who was going off to casualty and who was
going home on the trucks when they arrived. The medivac
helio could carry two stretcher patients, or three/four
sitting casualties. Our guys weren't stretcher cases so they
could all comfortably go into the helio, but one would have
to stay and wait for the truck if we loaded the badly
injured Angry Guy. Everyone looked at the force commander
for the decision.

Now I'm not telling any secrets when I say that -
generally - neither side bothered to take prisoners, or if
they did they had a relatively short lifespan after they'd
been 'debriefed'. I know. It sounds bad. But at that time
and in that place it seemed eminently sensible. It was,
after all, a war. And despite what anyone may say,
attempting to apply rules to a war is almost as obscene as
war itself. So it wasn't exactly a difficult decision for
the force commander to say 'take our guys', especially as
the Angry Guy didn't look like he'd last 'til he got to
casualty, far less provide any useful information if we
managed to save his life.

Half an hour later our transport had arrived and we were
ready to leave. Our remaining medic had worked hard on the
Angry Guy, but it was obvious he wasn't going to last much
longer. He was pumped so full of painkillers that I doubt he
knew where he was, but he was still conscious and the
question arose 'what do we do with him?' He clearly wouldn't
last beyond another half hour, the casualty station was a
twenty minute ride away but we no longer had priority on the
medivac helios, and the road journey was a good two hours
long. We had to get going, lest the other side managed to
get its act together and come looking for revenge. The force
commander told me to 'sort it out'. So, my little running
chums, what was I to do?

I believe that a persons death should be a private matter.
After all, even if you die in the midst of a crowd, it's
only *you* who experiences your death, no-one else. Even if
thousands die all around you, it's still only *your*
experience that matters to you. Does having a hand to hold
or a kindly face to gaze into matter as you die? I don't
know, but I'm guess I'll find out one day. As will you.

I made my Angry Guy as comfortable as I could, half sitting
against a fallen tree. I gave him a canteen of water and
asked him if he'd be ok. He smiled and said he'd be "..fine
when we fcuked off." I picked up an AK, checked it had a
full magazine, loaded the first round into the chamber, set
the weapon on single shot, asked one of my troop to cover
me, and placed the gun on his lap. I stood up, took two
paces back, gave him my best salute, turned and walked to
the trucks. We drove away and I never looked back.

To me, my Angry Guy will always be sitting there with a half
smile on his face watching some Rhodesian Army twit saluting
him. He'll always represent a proud belief, subsequently
soiled by his political masters, that he could shape the
destiny of his homeland through his courage and strength.
He's literally part of Africa now, but he was part of Africa
then too. He's covered in dust, wearing an old t-shirt,
plimsolls, and with an oil-stained cammo pair of trouser
held on by an ex-Rhodesian army belt. He's dying, but he's
happy to be treated like a man, being given the dignity of
his final moments spent in peace, and surrounded by the land
he loved. For some reason, I can't help but envy him his
manner of passing.

Was this the 'triumph over injury' story you wanted, Donny?

[Topcounsel]

>Was this the 'triumph over injury' story you wanted, Donny?

You just can't say a Farewell to Arms, can you, Hemingway?
Good thing I show more restraint -- my entire experience
with the military consists of several years on an army base
in Wurzburg, Germany.

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <21bs401irhleiqhjsfs6bpiebq29n7taeq@4ax.com>, Mr Slippery Spammer wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:36:08 +0000 (UTC), Donovan Rebbechi
> <abuse@aol.com> wrote:
>
[good story snipped]

> Was this the 'triumph over injury' story you wanted,
> Donny?

Not exactly what I had in mind, but it was still fascinating
reading. It is nice to see someone respond to my ideas as
expected, but it can be even more enjoyable to watch someone
pick up an idea and make it their own, spinning it off in a
direction that I did not (and could not) forsee.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Open Piper]

Mr Slippery Spammer <Why-are-you-spamming-me@stopspam.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<21bs401irhleiqhjsfs6bpiebq29n7taeq@4ax.com>...
> > I have no visible scars to remind me of my courage and
> > valour
> <splutter, guffaw> during my three years of military
> service. Like most happy souls who survive a war, my scars
> tend towards the mental. Fear not, I shan't regale you
> with gory tales, or stories of tragedy, or pathos, or
> futility, though there are many I could tell, and many
> more I wish I could forget. I'll recall the one abiding
> memory of that time that's stayed with me all these years,
> and it has the same meaning today as it did the moment it
> happened.

The first time you saw Tim Downie naked?

[Mwright]

This are my perspectives as a runner who will never be
anywhere than middle of the pack because of lack of
inherent talent, but enjoy what I do and, after years of
relative inactivity, find that being a fit 44 year old is
pretty damn good.
> (*) What was the injury ?
Plantar fascitis, left foot. Very sudden - said "ouch, that
hurts, if it gets worse, I should turn around and walk
back". Didn't get worse, but didn't get much better. And did
the rest of the 8 miles.
> (*) When did you first notice the symptoms ?
Mile 3 of an 8 mile run.
> (*) When did you realise you actually had an injury ?
Several weeks later, when a friend, who had passed me on her
bike while I had been running, told me how bad my gait
looked at the time (she had stopped at my car to make sure I
had made it back, even though I told her I was fine), and
finally appreciating that the pain was not going away. Guess
endorphins and stupidity had blocked out my appreciation of
the pain during the run. That was an important lesson, and I
found that I usually had worse pain the next day, rather
than the running day, which made it hard to figure out when
I was overdoing. Realized it needed to be an averaged
sensation - several days feeling good meant something, one
day did not.
> Questions that are important IMO: (*) When did you begin
> treatment ?
After a few months of trying to get through with some rest
and reduced running.
> (*) What sort of treatment did you use ?
Local excellent sports medicine doctor (also a runner all
his life, and had dealt with bad plantar fascitis in his
younger days) - foot massage to ease up fascia, calf
stretchs each evening and morning for several minutes, the
latter before stepping on foot. Night splint (great attack
weapon on husband - watch where you kick). Spenco half sole
also prescribed by him - been great for me and I use them
still. He doesn't usually go to orthotics at first, or
didn't with me. Stopped running at that time (I don't think
I really could run by then).
> (*) How did you approach rehab ?
Needed to do it badly. Hoping for a cure, as I was
symptomatic by then at all times, and very limited in foot
wear (Merrel clogs with extra arch support - not very
professional). Was very diligent.
> (*) How long was it before symptoms completely
> disappeared ?
Started easing up in a month, after three (four?) months
extremely minimal discomfort and started weight bearing
again (elliptical trainer, which was comfortable initially
without an incline) Before that, exercise bike. New Year's
gift to self, after 4-5 months of non-weight bearing, was
running again as a complete newbie (walk 2 mins, run 1 min,
for 7 minutes run, then worked up from there SLOWLY). That
was January 2003. I'm training for the Indy mini-marathon
now (terrible name for a half-marathon, but my sister lives
there, and it doesn't have Nashville's hills) - left
Galloway behind when I started back to running that January,
and now only walk when I'm trying to figure out which way to
go or my running partner (my dog) needs to pee. Had done the
Country Music half marathon run-walking (go ahead and laugh
some more, but I felt good and finished strong. For me.)
> (*) Given 20/20 hindsight, would you approach treatment
> and rehab differently ? If so, how ?
Not sure if I would have waited so long, but I was already
registered for Chicago, and didn't want to cancel out two
years in a row (first time problems with knee).
> Moderately interesting questions (but less important
> because causes of injury have already been discussed to
> death here): (*) Was it preceeded by any warning signs ?
Nope. This was very acute, and I can tell you where I was in
the run. All plantar fascitis is not chronic, and there were
no preceeding signs.
> (*) Was it preceeded by ill-advised training ? Or any
> training that was " ill-advised" given 20/20 hindsight ?
Totally stupid training on my part. Had done a long 20 mile
the week before with Gallowalk, realised later my weekly
mileage did not support that (I'll never even try for a
marathon unless I really can commit serious time, which
means getting divorced/getting my girls to go off to
college). Next week visited my mom in beautiful Washington
State and ran a lot (for me) in great weather, then came
back to the humid south for the 8 mile to keep up my heat
acclimation. Moron. Too much mileage after a long run. Not
to totally fault Galloway - although the program had me on a
pretty low amount of mileage, I cut even below that because
of limited time for training.
> (*) Was footwear a contributing factor ?
No, I replace shoes a lot, as I'm rough on them, despite
being short and not fat. Still very careful with my shoe
choice though. Trying Asic GT 2080, although Saucony Omni
Grids were very good as well. I'm not the stereotypical
overpronator, just a bit, but seem to be getting more
neutral as I strenghten. I have shifted carefully to more of
a mid-foot strike than my previous heel strike, and my knees
thank me (that plus the quads strenghtening).

I think that foot will never be quite perfect, as I
sometimes get, well, not pain, but a little warmth. I do 2
minutes of calf stretchs each night (using a slant board)
while I brush my teeth, which does a lot of good. I'm very
careful with my running now and advance my mileage slowly
and carefully, with thought. 10 mile long run last Saturday
afternoon with the dog in the park - wonderful!

Margaret

[Open Piper]

Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc4stsp.gmq.abuse@panix2.panix.com>...
> > Not exactly what I had in mind, but it was still
> > fascinating reading. It is
> nice to see someone respond to my ideas as expected, but
> it can be even more enjoyable to watch someone pick up an
> idea and make it their own, spinning it off in a direction
> that I did not (and could not) forsee.
>
> Cheers,

It's simple to baffle an idiot.

[Tim Downie]

Donovan Rebbechi wrote:

> Basic questions: (*) What was the injury ?

Quadraceps tear

> (*) When did you first notice the symptoms ?

I'd had a niggling pain after a hill run but didn't think it
was significant.

> (*) When did you realise you actually had an injury ?

It wasn't until 5 days and several runs later and after I'd
limped away from the end of a 5K race that I realised I had
a significant problem. After the race I simply couldn't run
at all with a lot of pain in my hip and knee.

> Questions that are important IMO: (*) When did you begin
> treatment ?

You could say that my treatment started right after my race.
I just wasn't able to run so I tried substituting cycling
but that wasn't any better so it was more or less complete
rest for 4 weeks.

> (*) What sort of treatment did you use ?

Rest and a bit of swimming latterly.

> (*) How did you approach rehab ?

After about 3 weeks of moping around I was begining the
think that I might have a stress fracture. My hip pain
seemed very localised and I was still getting pain in my
knee (which I put down to refered pain). I went to my local
sports injury clinic where a very clued up doc ( a runner
himself) was quickly able to demonstrate that my injury was
a soft tissue one and prescribed a heat treatment session
and a course of quad exercises. I'm sure the single heat
treatment did b*gg*r all but it felt nice.

I was worried about running the Edinburgh marathon at the
time. The original injury occured 10 weeks before the race
but I was able to resume training 4 weeks after the 5K race.
(i.e. 6 weeks before the 'thon).

> (*) How long was it before symptoms completely
> disappeared ?

About 5 weeks

> (*) Given 20/20 hindsight, would you approach treatment
> and rehab differently ? If so, how ?

If I'd known exactly what my injury was, I dare say I could
have started my quad exercises sooner and possibly returned
to training sooner. I would certainly have a lower threshold
for refering myself to the sports injury clinic.

> Moderately interesting questions (but less important
> because causes of injury have already been discussed to
> death here): (*) Was it preceeded by any warning signs ?

Whilst I'm pretty certain that it was the hill run (the
descent in particular) that initiated the damage, I can see
from my running log that I still did a 5 mile club run, a 7
mile recovery run and an 18 mile LSD before the 5K so it
would seem that if I had significant warning signs, I wasn't
paying them any heed.

> (*) Was it preceeded by ill-advised training ? Or any
> training that was " ill-advised" given 20/20 hindsight ?

Apart from trying to do a bit too much too soon, nothing
apart from the hill run stands out.

> (*) Was footwear a contributing factor ?

Don't think so.

Despite the 4 weeks lost training, I was still able to run
the marathon in
3:35 which given the hilly nature of the course, I wasn't
too displeased with.

Tim

--
Remove the obvious to reply by email. Please support
rheumatoid arthritis research! Visit
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[Doug Freese]

TopCounsel wrote:

>>I've had my battle wounds, and it really sucked.
>
>
> Good thread idea. Donovan, please be sure to post a
> summary of your own experience with achilles troubles (I
> think it was), as this is surely one of the more common
> things which bothers runners as they increase their speed,
> and sure to be valuable reading.

Not to nitpick but Achilles problems like PF and others can
be caused and or aggravated by simply too rapid an increase
in miles, or hills, or speed and probably the biggest
culprit, fast hill repeats, i.e. both.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" dfreeseS@NOBShvc.rr.com

[Doug Freese]

Donovan Rebbechi wrote:

> Basic questions: (*) What was the injury ?
Adductor muscle pull
> (*) When did you first notice the symptoms ?

Many years back when I was pushing doing multiple ultras in
a year without understanding my recover rate. I knew how to
train but not recover.

> Questions that are important IMO: (*) When did you begin
> treatment ?

Immediately cuz it hurt like hell to run.

> (*) What sort of treatment did you use ?

It ran the gamut and took almost a year to finally discover
the best treatment. Shaggy dog story to follow.

> (*) How did you approach rehab ?
Typically. ;) Stopped running for some days, then for some
weeks but it did not help. Went to the Vet and repeated rest
with 2 weeks of industrial strength Anti inflammatory. Did
not work, Finally an MRI which showed no obvious muscle
problems. Suspected a nerve issue and off to a neurologist.
The nerve guy tested me for the slightest nerve damage and
found none.
> (*) How long was it before symptoms completely
> disappeared ?

The nerve guy in probing my history after finding no nerve
problem said, you know, many people need more than
traditional two weeks of anti inflammatories to aid and abet
healing. He wrote me a prescription for a 30 day AI and
walla, on day 31 I went for 1/2 mile run with no problem. In
the past, after a two weeks supply, it hurt after a few
hundred yards. I very slowly went back to running being
thrilled to again run a mile, then two.....

> (*) Given 20/20 hindsight, would you approach treatment
> and rehab differently ? If so, how ?

I think the answer is obvious, for harsher, more stubborn
injuries longer rest and AI's are at times necessary. i
would still recommend the two week supply as a first pass
but keep in mind, it that does not work, ask your doctor
about a longer AI cycle.

> Moderately interesting questions (but less important
> because causes of injury have already been discussed to
> death here): (*) Was it preceeded by any warning signs ?
No suddenly.
> (*) Was it preceeded by ill-advised training ? Or any
> training that was " ill-advised" given 20/20 hindsight ?

Running a fast 5 mile race a week or so after a 100 mile
race because I felt good. Feeling recovered and actually
being recovered are two different animals!!!!!!

Hindsight - to this day I follow a long race with 2-3 weeks
of recovery to include zero the week after and delightfully
slow and low junk for another two weeks. Since I run 20-25
miles each weekend for 3-4 weeks, back down for a week, and
repeat during my training, a long race is 50 miles and
above. I'm very in tune with my recovery rate so I can do a
50k and 50 miles race three weeks apart.

> (*) Was footwear a contributing factor ?
Nope.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" dfreeseS@NOBShvc.rr.com

[Tom Wheeler]

Nice post. I been in his group for many years. and did a
marathon. not knowing what a marathon was when I started.
reason I stay and talk B.S. main is for my own health and
well being. I am and older and well not meant to be
completive. I just want to be in the race for the fun. Evan
if I am in the back of the pack. I have taken lots of trolls
and local bad stiff you were it hurts remarks, and like a
rubber ball it bounce. and evan did the breaks a leg. did
not know it could really happen. it can. after news and t.v.
radio local persons new of me. it can get really. Break a
leg. well I got breaker too. after a long Aug 2002 since I
have evensong. I went to the doctor over a back injurious
and am now ready to train for and iron man. I know you and
abuse troll. and no way. well I found a way. I am still
sticking my toe in the cold water and looking like a white
crane with one foot up. well you know. I amp to get mad at
self and mean no harm to others evan if I can get right rude
at time to breaker a leg or evan heart attacks. I am my self
Not you. Butt I take some trolls for my other reasons. as
she wartime not to mention for she is above RR. so I won't.
evan or odds. if it ever happens or not. I am a 48 year old
man who just wants to do the thanks to look back one day and
live with self and look in the mirror. and
die. Hope full in nature. I like nature, I am a nature
person. now. No Gym, No tights. No bra hrm or pieds or
gps. just nature. And all the other science sorceries
gizmo moes these rr use and most abuse. I miss tea
blond babe who die of cancer. I didn't do it. and irac
constitute London base Iamin. chill, let the soldiers
do there job there. maybe rip some mor banks to pay for
it. They sure don't/ O righttttttttttt see some get the
right to work 24 7 and lose a dollor and them There
righttttttttt and get 500 million a day to lend so they
can get 499 million a day interest and work 24 7. I
know it is money. Get real You a hole. I know 2 plus 2
means I get 1 dollor for a day work and owe you 10
dollor. for you to make 100 dollor and get to make it
for all others to give you more. I well never under
stand money. Evan nash live in a room by his aunt and
wore the same red tennie shoe and rode a bike in a
circle. and for what he got and die, a paper. butt you
guys can come up with more reasons. I am 48 and well
chill all. I don't have money all. stop talking like I
do. Gee they are so smart butt are so dumb. 2 plus 2 is
4. got it. ****. god speed rr. Lowtuc.p.s I get mad and
change name all the time. ****. I got to ride.

[Swstudio]

"Doug Freese" <dfreese@NOBShvc.rr.com> wrote in message>
> > Basic questions: (*) What was the injury ?
> Adductor muscle pull

Every time I see the word "adductor" all I can think of is
my noticing that around 90% of the time people discuss
problems with that muscle here on the NG over the years,
they spell it "abductor"... which always makes me smile. :)

It's right up there with "loosing" weight. ;)

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see, putting other people
down constantly."

[Swstudio]

Nice thread, Donovan. My reply:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
> (*) What was the injury ?

Morton's Neuroma.

> (*) When did you first notice the symptoms ?

I had been doing fairly high mileage, and one day I came
back from a long-ish run and was standing at the sink
washing a glass to make my recovery drink when I suddenly
got a sharp pain in a localized spot on the top/middle of my
right foot, in between two metatarsal bones, about a
centimetre (around half an inch) from where the toes start.
I looked down and there was a perfect puffy, slightly raised
circle, a tad smaller than quarter, in the descibed
location. It was a little red and very tender. It was like I
wanted to spread my toes apart to relieve the pressure. If
you wanted to torture me right then, you could grab my foot
and squeeze it.

> (*) When did you realise you actually had an injury ?

Right then and there. It was obvious something was wrong and
this was not a muscle pull or tendon/ligament problem. I
immediately assumed it was a stress fracture, because of the
suddenness and the highly localized nature. If you read
Lyndon's post in this thread, you can see some our
experiences were similar, although we had completely
different problems. There are differences, of course.

> (*) When did you begin treatment ?

I tried to take a bit of time off and then slowly run though
it, hoping it would somehow go away. After some time and
some miserable races in which I either dropped out or
finished badly, I sought some treatment. I knew I had to
when I noticed I was grimacing in painful anticipation every
time I was about to turn. That was the worst.

> (*) What sort of treatment did you use ?

I made the HUGE error of going to a regular doctor at the
emergency section of the hospital to get a local cortisone
injection one day when it was so bad I could not walk. My
reasoning that because this procedure helps a lot when I
throw my back out once-or-twice yearly. I go from being
unable to walk upright to totally fine in one day, so I
thought it was a good idea... besides, I've read various
case studies on the net that suggested this works for many
neuroma patients. Certainly it is not unusual treatment.

Instead of that effect, I ended up being completely crippled
and in agonizing pain for over a month. I knew from about 10
minutes after I got the injections that I had seriously
screwed up in my choice. I tried a few over-the-counter
inserts designed for MN, and in doing so I discovered that
it's primarily a female's injury due to wearing high heels
all the time that squish the toebox and create the pressure
that eventually causes the nerve(s) in between the
metatarsals to get inflamed.

I eventually visited a very good pedorthist, the one who
made the orthotics Donovan Bailey was wearing when he made
his WR 100m run. He made me a custom pair, designed to fit
in flats, which is all I wear. Once I had them in, the pain
started going away and gently subsided over several weeks.

> (*) How did you approach rehab ?

I avoided turning corners while running, and no fast stuff,
as the added push-off power needed was very painful.

> (*) How long was it before symptoms completely
> disappeared ?

They never have, completely. I can tell it's still there but
it does not bother me at all. It's like a healed broken bone
- it never feels quite the same, but it doesn't affect you.
Perhaps it's scar tissue from the cortisone injection, and I
can "feel" it.

> (*) Given 20/20 hindsight, would you approach treatment
> and rehab
differently ?
> If so, how ?

No cortisone. No injections.

> (*) Was it preceeded by any warning signs ?

None whatsoever.

> (*) Was it preceeded by ill-advised training ? Or any
> training that was " ill-advised" given 20/20 hindsight ?

I had just made the transition from a heel striker to a
midfoot/forefoot stiker. This, coupled with the fact that I
wear racing flats only, probably brought it on. Not to
mention that I had increased my mileage a lot... steadily
and properly,but neverthess it could have contributed.

> (*) Was footwear a contributing factor ?

As noted above, possibly. However, I believe wearing flats
all the time prevents many potential injuries as well as
improves form. The positives outweigh the negatives. I try
on a pair of trainers now and they feel like high-heeled
moon boots. It's like the ground is not there.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see, putting other people
down constantly."

[Teresa Bippert-]

> Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
>Basic questions:
>>(*) What was the injury ?
>
Plantar Fasciitis
>
>(*) When did you first notice the symptoms ?
>
My foot started hurting intermittantly after I took a bad
step on a hilly run. Going fast downhill.
>
>>(*) When did you realise you actually had an injury ?
>
I gave it a couple of days' rest, then when I started
running again it would occaisionally hurt at the beginnings
of a run. Then it began to become more frequent. It took
about 3 weeks before I realized I had something chronic
starting to form.
>
>>Questions that are important IMO: (*) When did you begin
>>treatment ?
>
I iced it the first few days, then again after I realized I
had a problem (several weeks later). At that point also
started taking an ibuprofen before the run. And tried gel
heel lifts, which didn't help much. It helped some, but
didn't entirely go away. So saw a podiatrist a couple of
months later, and he put me into a night brace. Helped some,
but still not a complete recovery. So he sent me to the PTs.
They got to the root of the problem- very tight high arches-
and started me on stretching and massage therapy. This made
it go away (took about 2-3 months). To this day, when my
foot feels tight, I do the stretches for a few days or the
foot can start getting painful.
>
>>(*) Given 20/20 hindsight, would you approach treatment
>>and rehab differently ? If so, how ?
>
I would have kept icing and ibuprofen, and gotten to the
PTs sooner.
>
>>Moderately interesting questions (but less important
>>because causes of injury have already been discussed to
>>death here): (*) Was it preceeded by any warning signs ?
>
No, not really. I had tight, high arches, but I didn't know
that they needed to be "watched".
>
>(*) Was it preceeded by ill-advised training ? Or any
>training that was " ill-advised" given 20/20 hindsight ?
>
A bad step on a steep downhill at fast speed started it all.
Maybe it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't had that step,
but it's made me aware of my feet's shortcomings and what I
need to watch to keep them healthy and happy.
>
>(*) Was footwear a contributing factor ?
>
Don't think so. But now I do put Sof Sole Arch Plus inserts
into my shoes and I think that helps.
>
Teresa in AZ

[Teresa Bippert-]

> Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
>Basic questions:
>>(*) What was the injury ?
>
Plantar Fasciitis
>
>(*) When did you first notice the symptoms ?
>
My foot started hurting intermittantly after I took a bad
step on a hilly run. Going fast downhill.
>
>>(*) When did you realise you actually had an injury ?
>
I gave it a couple of days' rest, then when I started
running again it would occaisionally hurt at the beginnings
of a run. Then it began to become more frequent. It took
about 3 weeks before I realized I had something chronic
starting to form.
>
>>Questions that are important IMO: (*) When did you begin
>>treatment ?
>
I iced it the first few days, then again after I realized I
had a problem (several weeks later). At that point also
started taking an ibuprofen before the run. And tried gel
heel lifts, which didn't help much. It helped some, but
didn't entirely go away. So saw a podiatrist a couple of
months later, and he put me into a night brace. Helped some,
but still not a complete recovery. So he sent me to the PTs.
They got to the root of the problem- very tight high arches-
and started me on stretching and massage therapy. This made
it go away (took about 2-3 months). To this day, when my
foot feels tight, I do the stretches for a few days or the
foot can start getting painful.
>
>>(*) Given 20/20 hindsight, would you approach treatment
>>and rehab differently ? If so, how ?
>
I would have kept icing and ibuprofen, and gotten to the
PTs sooner.
>
>>Moderately interesting questions (but less important
>>because causes of injury have already been discussed to
>>death here): (*) Was it preceeded by any warning signs ?
>
No, not really. I had tight, high arches, but I didn't know
that they needed to be "watched".
>
>(*) Was it preceeded by ill-advised training ? Or any
>training that was " ill-advised" given 20/20 hindsight ?
>
A bad step on a steep downhill at fast speed started it all.
Maybe it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't had that step,
but it's made me aware of my feet's shortcomings and what I
need to watch to keep them healthy and happy.
>
>(*) Was footwear a contributing factor ?
>
Don't think so. But now I do put Sof Sole Arch Plus inserts
into my shoes and I think that helps.
>
Teresa in AZ

[Teresa Bippert-]

> Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
>Basic questions:
>>(*) What was the injury ?
>
Plantar Fasciitis
>
>(*) When did you first notice the symptoms ?
>
My foot started hurting intermittantly after I took a bad
step on a hilly run. Going fast downhill.
>
>>(*) When did you realise you actually had an injury ?
>
I gave it a couple of days' rest, then when I started
running again it would occaisionally hurt at the beginnings
of a run. Then it began to become more frequent. It took
about 3 weeks before I realized I had something chronic
starting to form.
>
>>Questions that are important IMO: (*) When did you begin
>>treatment ?
>
I iced it the first few days, then again after I realized I
had a problem (several weeks later). At that point also
started taking an ibuprofen before the run. And tried gel
heel lifts, which didn't help much. It helped some, but
didn't entirely go away. So saw a podiatrist a couple of
months later, and he put me into a night brace. Helped some,
but still not a complete recovery. So he sent me to the PTs.
They got to the root of the problem- very tight high arches-
and started me on stretching and massage therapy. This made
it go away (took about 2-3 months). To this day, when my
foot feels tight, I do the stretches for a few days or the
foot can start getting painful.
>
>>(*) Given 20/20 hindsight, would you approach treatment
>>and rehab differently ? If so, how ?
>
I would have kept icing and ibuprofen, and gotten to the
PTs sooner.
>
>>Moderately interesting questions (but less important
>>because causes of injury have already been discussed to
>>death here): (*) Was it preceeded by any warning signs ?
>
No, not really. I had tight, high arches, but I didn't know
that they needed to be "watched".
>
>(*) Was it preceeded by ill-advised training ? Or any
>training that was " ill-advised" given 20/20 hindsight ?
>
A bad step on a steep downhill at fast speed started it all.
Maybe it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't had that step,
but it's made me aware of my feet's shortcomings and what I
need to watch to keep them healthy and happy.
>
>(*) Was footwear a contributing factor ?
>
Don't think so. But now I do put Sof Sole Arch Plus inserts
into my shoes and I think that helps.
>
Teresa in AZ

[Teresa Bippert-]

> Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
>Basic questions:
>>(*) What was the injury ?
>
Plantar Fasciitis
>
>(*) When did you first notice the symptoms ?
>
My foot started hurting intermittantly after I took a bad
step on a hilly run. Going fast downhill.
>
>>(*) When did you realise you actually had an injury ?
>
I gave it a couple of days' rest, then when I started
running again it would occaisionally hurt at the beginnings
of a run. Then it began to become more frequent. It took
about 3 weeks before I realized I had something chronic
starting to form.
>
>>Questions that are important IMO: (*) When did you begin
>>treatment ?
>
I iced it the first few days, then again after I realized I
had a problem (several weeks later). At that point also
started taking an ibuprofen before the run. And tried gel
heel lifts, which didn't help much. It helped some, but
didn't entirely go away. So saw a podiatrist a couple of
months later, and he put me into a night brace. Helped some,
but still not a complete recovery. So he sent me to the PTs.
They got to the root of the problem- very tight high arches-
and started me on stretching and massage therapy. This made
it go away (took about 2-3 months). To this day, when my
foot feels tight, I do the stretches for a few days or the
foot can start getting painful.
>
>>(*) Given 20/20 hindsight, would you approach treatment
>>and rehab differently ? If so, how ?
>
I would have kept icing and ibuprofen, and gotten to the
PTs sooner.
>
>>Moderately interesting questions (but less important
>>because causes of injury have already been discussed to
>>death here): (*) Was it preceeded by any warning signs ?
>
No, not really. I had tight, high arches, but I didn't know
that they needed to be "watched".
>
>(*) Was it preceeded by ill-advised training ? Or any
>training that was " ill-advised" given 20/20 hindsight ?
>
A bad step on a steep downhill at fast speed started it all.
Maybe it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't had that step,
but it's made me aware of my feet's shortcomings and what I
need to watch to keep them healthy and happy.
>
>(*) Was footwear a contributing factor ?
>
Don't think so. But now I do put Sof Sole Arch Plus inserts
into my shoes and I think that helps.
>
Teresa in AZ