Slight knee pain/cleat position/seat position.

Hi guys the backside of my knee, a tendon at the absolute top of my calf, gives me pain when I cycle, and off the cycle, walking up stairs, produces a "clicking" sensation in the back of the knee so to speak.

Now here are some thoughts, I would appreciate any ideas.

1. Read in a magazine that pain in the back of the knees is cured with
lowering the saddle. I think I have it low enough, I can "drop" the heel under the pedal axle, when clipped in and in the bottom position, without moving on the saddle.

2. I have noticed that I do not sit completely "straight" on the bike. What I mean is that my hip/a*s seems twisted, so that the left leg/knee, comes closer to the frame, and the right leg, comes further away from the frame. I feel I am not sitting straight on the saddle I think. The saddle is straight, I have a cervelo soloist, and the saddle can only be straight due to the aero post.

3. My right foot, is a little bit longer than the left foot, this means that my left foot sits further "back" on the pedal, at least the heel does so to speak.
This moves my right leg back compared to the left leg. This would twist my hips/a*s/legs/knees as in 2 above. Could this cause 1 above?
I am thinking of adjusting the cleats, bring the right foot, slightly back, and the left foot slight forward, so the cleats are in the same fore/aft position on both, meaning that the heels on both feet will be in the "same" position.


I hope you can understand what I mean. I am sick and tired of my kneeproblems on this bike. I have been off the bike for months, got rid of the problems, back again and issues. I have NEVER had these issues on any bike before. The MTB does not seem to irritate at all. So, I reckon the issue is with my cleat, seat position. I also have a fairly pronounced drop to the bars, would that aggravate this? I does not feel weird when sitting on the bike though, can go for 3 hour spins without any serious pains, other than knee. The pain is such that I can usually ride, feel it for the first 10 mins or so, then gone for the rest of the ride, maybe feel it now and then for a moment during the ride. Feel it in stairs as said before though. Anyone had similar problems and cured them?

Claes wrote:
> Hi guys the backside of my knee, a tendon at the absolute top of my
> calf, gives me pain when I cycle, and off the cycle, walking up stairs,
> produces a "clicking" sensation in the back of the knee so to speak.
>
> Now here are some thoughts, I would appreciate any ideas.
>
> 1. Read in a magazine that pain in the back of the knees is cured with
> lowering the saddle. I think I have it low enough, I can "drop" the
> heel under the pedal axle, when clipped in and in the bottom position,
> without moving on the saddle.
>
> 2. I have noticed that I do not sit completely "straight" on the bike.
> What I mean is that my hip/a*s seems twisted, so that the left
> leg/knee, comes closer to the frame, and the right leg, comes further
> away from the frame. I feel I am not sitting straight on the saddle I
> think. The saddle is straight, I have a cervelo soloist, and the saddle
> can only be straight due to the aero post.
>
> 3. My right foot, is a little bit longer than the left foot, this means
> that my left foot sits further "back" on the pedal, at least the heel
> does so to speak.
> This moves my right leg back compared to the left leg. This would twist
> my hips/a*s/legs/knees as in 2 above. Could this cause 1 above?
> I am thinking of adjusting the cleats, bring the right foot, slightly
> back, and the left foot slight forward, so the cleats are in the same
> fore/aft position on both, meaning that the heels on both feet will be
> in the "same" position.
>
>
> I hope you can understand what I mean. I am sick and tired of my
> kneeproblems on this bike. I have been off the bike for months, got rid
> of the problems, back again and issues. I have NEVER had these issues on
> any bike before. The MTB does not seem to irritate at all. So, I reckon
> the issue is with my cleat, seat position. I also have a fairly
> pronounced drop to the bars, would that aggravate this? I does not feel
> weird when sitting on the bike though, can go for 3 hour spins without
> any serious pains, other than knee. The pain is such that I can usually
> ride, feel it for the first 10 mins or so, then gone for the rest of the
> ride, maybe feel it now and then for a moment during the ride. Feel it
> in stairs as said before though. Anyone had similar problems and cured
> them?

Go and see Emma Colsen - http://www.topbike.com.au/physio.htm

Or, Inspired Orthotics : http://www.ios.com.au/

My 2c worth*

If I had knee pain, or any position related pain, on one of my bikes I'd find someone qualified &/or experienced to check my fit.

Take both bikes & your shoes etc to "someone" & get measured.

*warning I am not a sports physio, nor do I play one on TV.

"Claes" <Claes.1zwmma@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote in message
news:Claes.1zwmma@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com...
>
> Hi guys the backside of my knee, a tendon at the absolute top of my
> calf, gives me pain when I cycle, and off the cycle, walking up stairs,
> produces a "clicking" sensation in the back of the knee so to speak.
>
> Now here are some thoughts, I would appreciate any ideas.
>
> 1. Read in a magazine that pain in the back of the knees is cured with
> lowering the saddle. I think I have it low enough, I can "drop" the
> heel under the pedal axle, when clipped in and in the bottom position,
> without moving on the saddle.
>
> 2. I have noticed that I do not sit completely "straight" on the bike.
> What I mean is that my hip/a*s seems twisted, so that the left
> leg/knee, comes closer to the frame, and the right leg, comes further
> away from the frame. I feel I am not sitting straight on the saddle I
> think. The saddle is straight, I have a cervelo soloist, and the saddle
> can only be straight due to the aero post.
>
> 3. My right foot, is a little bit longer than the left foot, this means
> that my left foot sits further "back" on the pedal, at least the heel
> does so to speak.
> This moves my right leg back compared to the left leg. This would twist
> my hips/a*s/legs/knees as in 2 above. Could this cause 1 above?
> I am thinking of adjusting the cleats, bring the right foot, slightly
> back, and the left foot slight forward, so the cleats are in the same
> fore/aft position on both, meaning that the heels on both feet will be
> in the "same" position.
>
>
> I hope you can understand what I mean. I am sick and tired of my
> kneeproblems on this bike. I have been off the bike for months, got rid
> of the problems, back again and issues. I have NEVER had these issues on
> any bike before. The MTB does not seem to irritate at all. So, I reckon
> the issue is with my cleat, seat position. I also have a fairly
> pronounced drop to the bars, would that aggravate this? I does not feel
> weird when sitting on the bike though, can go for 3 hour spins without
> any serious pains, other than knee. The pain is such that I can usually
> ride, feel it for the first 10 mins or so, then gone for the rest of the
> ride, maybe feel it now and then for a moment during the ride. Feel it
> in stairs as said before though. Anyone had similar problems and cured
> them?
>

Do you use the same shoes on the mtb and roadie? If so, the cleat position
is probably OK (although your thoughts on different foot size sound
logical). I'd have expected the problems on both bikes if it was cleats (and
you wear the same shoes).

Are your measurements the same on both bikes? No, not your inner leg, the
distance from seat to pedal, seat to bars, etc? You made a comment on the
drop to the bars - mtbs certainly sit you more upright.

Are you just trying to push too big a gear? Mtbs are geared much lower, so
you put less force on your knees - especially when climbing.

A fit specialist may help, or they may give you a good starting point. Can't
be a bad thing.

Hope that's some help

Tony F

Different shoes for the different bikes. I do ride the MTB with the seat lower than the road bike, simply to aid off road riding, sliding behind the seat, absorbing bumps while seated and stuff.

I do not ride with a low cadency, I sit at 95 to 103 on the flats. Riding steep up hill, I still maintain high 80s.

Going to a "fit specialist" is definately an option. More ideas are still welcome.

Claes wrote:

> Going to a "fit specialist" is definately an option. More ideas are
> still welcome.

Wave chicken gibblets over your helmet, tie a garter belt to your
seatpost and ride while doing gregorian chants and clapping your hands
in time to the orbit of mars.

Or, see a specialist with repetitive strain injuries like we're all
suggesting.

www.cyclingnews.com has a Fitness Q&A column (searchable) where bike fit and hip/knee/ankle/leg pain are perennial problems addressed. You may find some guidance and tips there. But like the others, after doing your research, I would then seek help from a qualified person (and NOT a LBS sales person) eg IOS or Emma Coulson types.

I say do your research first, so that 1) you understand what the h3ll the qualified person is saying to you when they are discussing your problem and 2) so you also have an idea if they are really addressing your problem or just spinning you some fairy dust.

Maybe the answer is hidden here? http://www.bikenow.com.au/u-fit/index.htm

Good luck with it...

cheers,
Ali

On 11 Dec 2005 20:14:12 -0800, Bleve wrote:

> Wave chicken gibblets over your helmet, tie a garter belt to your
> seatpost and ride while doing gregorian chants and clapping your hands
> in time to the orbit of mars.
>
> Or, see a specialist with repetitive strain injuries like we're all
> suggesting.

I'm off to pick up my orthotics this evening to help fix a similar problem.
Just in case they don't work, what's the orbital period of Mars, or do I
swing a Mars bar on a string round my head and clap in time to that? Would
sticking "Masters of Chant II" [1] on the CD work rather than chanting
myself (which would endanger anyone within earshot)?

Graeme

[1] WTF I have this for I don't know, Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here" has
never sounded so bad!

Graeme Dods wrote:
> On 11 Dec 2005 20:14:12 -0800, Bleve wrote:
>
> > Wave chicken gibblets over your helmet, tie a garter belt to your
> > seatpost and ride while doing gregorian chants and clapping your hands
> > in time to the orbit of mars.
> >
> > Or, see a specialist with repetitive strain injuries like we're all
> > suggesting.
>
> I'm off to pick up my orthotics this evening to help fix a similar problem.
> Just in case they don't work, what's the orbital period of Mars, or do I
> swing a Mars bar on a string round my head and clap in time to that? Would
> sticking "Masters of Chant II" [1] on the CD work rather than chanting
> myself (which would endanger anyone within earshot)?

You got the garter belt? That's the most important part.

> [1] WTF I have this for I don't know, Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here" has
> never sounded so bad!

You -could- swap a lost soul for a goldfish bowl, which might work ...

On 2005-12-12, Graeme Dods <graeme@gpdods.removethisbit.com> wrote:
> Would
> sticking "Masters of Chant II" [1] on the CD work rather than chanting
> myself (which would endanger anyone within earshot)?
>
> Graeme
>
> [1] WTF I have this for I don't know, Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here" has
> never sounded so bad!

Masters of Chant was a decent CD. I assumed, when I picked up #2, that
it was of similar quality.

I was wrong.

I admit it.

Hm ... I need CDs to scare away the birds from my fruit trees ... I see
a use for it in the near future!

--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".

Stuart Lamble wrote:

> Masters of Chant was a decent CD. I assumed, when I picked up #2, that
> it was of similar quality.

Try to get a copy of Pigorian Chant. Hilarious! I've played it as background
when I've got new visitors. They don't get it until I tell them to listen
really carefully.

Theo

Thanx for the useful replies, no thanx for the not so useful replies.
I found some interesting stuff, will try that, if that fails, I'll try an authority.
Bike was setup by an authority, bike coach.

The stuff I found regarded seat height, which I could suffer from I guess, and cleat position.

Still found no advice on how to handle feet that are not the same size, only 5 mm difference though.

The cleats are probably more different than 5 mm, so I'll try to set the right foot back a bit, so the cleat has the exact same postion on the shoe as my left foot. Costs nothing, and is inline with some recomendations of running my shoe size, with the ball of your foot 10 mm in front of axle. Since left side gives no hassle I'll leave it put for now.

Claes wrote:
>
> Thanx for the useful replies, no thanx for the not so useful replies.
> I found some interesting stuff, will try that, if that fails, I'll try
> an authority.
> Bike was setup by an authority, bike coach.
>
> The stuff I found regarded seat height, which I could suffer from I
> guess, and cleat position.
>
> Still found no advice on how to handle feet that are not the same size,
> only 5 mm difference though.
>
> The cleats are probably more different than 5 mm, so I'll try to set
> the right foot back a bit, so the cleat has the exact same postion on
> the shoe as my left foot. Costs nothing, and is inline with some
> recomendations of running my shoe size, with the ball of your foot 10
> mm in front of axle. Since left side gives no hassle I'll leave it put
> for now.
>
> --
> Claes

Hello, one more reply coming.

I had my bike setup by a guru (not to be confused with a lesser expert
or lower authority, this man is a guru). He was shocked and amazed when
he looked at my arches - my feet are the same length, but one arch is
longer and flatter than the other. It's actually about a centimetre
longer.

So I adjusted my cleats so the pedal axle falls in the same spot,
relative to the "ball of the foot bone behind the big toe" to put it
completely non-technically and avoid the use of the word metatarsal.

Tam

Thanx for the info Tam. I have always, on my other bikes, tried to have the cleats set like you describe, the accepted practice ASFAIK, and never had any problems. I also had the cleats like that until now, but for some reason, on this bike, my left knee falls in towards the frame a bit when I do that. I also found some advice saying that the ball of the foot should be slightly in front of the pedal axle at 3 o'clock. The motivation goes like, otherwise you are behind the axle at 1 o'clock where you do put in a lot of power. Anyhow, my right foot is now slightly, about 4-5 mm in front of the axle, left ball is on the axle, I rode bike in to have it serviced this morning, and I do sit straighter on the bike, the left knee does not fall in as much. So, step in right direction I think.