Herald Sun reader comments on death of James Gould - Page 2

On 2006-08-30, cfsmtb <cfsmtb.2dc67b@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> Theo Bekkers Wrote:
>> Just reading the news stories as they unfold. And you?
>
> Who pissed in your cornflakes today eh?

I could ask the same question of you. I have the distinct impression
that you're taking more offence at what's being written here than is
actually warranted.

Take a step back from the computer, stretch, and take a deep breath.
*Both* of you.

--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".

BrettS wrote:

> Just like when you push a stroller across a zebra crossing, you can't
> assume anything...

Well, can you explain what all those mothers who blindly push them onto
busy roads are doing?

Haahaa, you vainly tring to read the riot act on moi, Stuart?

After awhile we all get sick of this open slander trolling crap, and a line has to be drawn, err, "typed". You don't like it when someone *actually* stands up to it?

Deal with it, it's the internerd

cfsmtb wrote:
> Theo Bekkers Wrote:

>> Just reading the news stories as they unfold. And you?

> Who pissed in your cornflakes today eh?

Never eat cereals. I think it was Neiwand that pissed in peoples food and
drink.

> As you enquire, I'm actually attempting to take on this potential
> backlash and media firestorm by assisting with sending out Wheels of
> Justice media releases, managing the website enquiries, engaging with
> the media, cycling groups and individuals et al.

Good for you.

> Wheels of Justice Media Release
> http://www.woj.com.au/2006/08/29/whe...media-release/

Hmm, that doesn't do it for me. Looks like a whitewash. Sorry.

> Let alone all the other unpaid work I do for my local BUG. All unpaid
> voluntary work. WTF do you do Theo? Anything?

Hehehehe. Where do you want me to start? The Vinnies, the Keep Oz Beautiful
Council, the Adult Literacy Council, the Red Cross, the Bush Fire Brigades,
or just regular monetary donations?

Theo

Stuart Lamble wrote:

> Take a step back from the computer, stretch, and take a deep breath.
> *Both* of you.

<takes deep breath>

Theo

cfsmtb wrote:

> After awhile we all get sick of this open slander trolling crap, and a
> line has to be drawn, err, "typed".

Keyboards at twenty paces?
Open slander trolling? Hmmm.

Theo

Theo Bekkers wrote:

> BrettS wrote:
>
>
>>It's sad that someone has died and I think the guy that rode through
>>the red light should haved the book thrown at him, but if the hell
>>Ride is *such* a dangerous event and if riders are *always* breaking
>>the law and it happens *every* weekend and the old guy walks along
>>that stretch of road *every* day you would think he would know to
>>take a little extra care?
>
>
> Let's blame the victim. Old bloke walked accross the crosswalk after a bunch
> of cyclists stopped for him. How silly is that?
>

Not blaming the victim at all. Simply passing comment that if the Hell
Ride is *so* dangerous, you would think this guy would know about it and
be more careful. Apparently he did not seem to think it was.

Like I said. The guys who ran the red light needs to have the book
thrown at him.

--
BrettS

Theo Bekkers wrote:

> cfsmtb wrote:
>>Let alone all the other unpaid work I do for my local BUG. All unpaid
>>voluntary work. WTF do you do Theo? Anything?
>
>
> Hehehehe. Where do you want me to start? The Vinnies, the Keep Oz Beautiful
> Council, the Adult Literacy Council, the Red Cross, the Bush Fire Brigades,
> or just regular monetary donations?

Keep Australia Beautiful Council? Are you one of those guys who dobs in
litterbugs? I thought they got paid. :-)

--
BrettS

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:41:36 +0800
BrettS <brett_the_vet@NOVIAGRATHANKS.optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>>
>> Let's blame the victim. Old bloke walked accross the crosswalk after a bunch
>> of cyclists stopped for him. How silly is that?
>>
>
> Not blaming the victim at all. Simply passing comment that if the Hell
> Ride is *so* dangerous, you would think this guy would know about it and
> be more careful. Apparently he did not seem to think it was.

How much more careful can he be than wait for cyclists to stop and
then cross with the green light?

Zebee

I heard someone called Paul interviewed by Derryn Hinch this afternoon. He was about 200 metres behind the hell ride when the accident happened and stayed to help block traffic. His version of events was that the victim had well and truely waited for the bikes to stop and was about half way across the road when he was hit.

fact is , we ... and all the commentators, the media and other agenda drivers, weren't there and therefore are none the wiser.....

there is to be a coronial enquiry, I will be there, and listen to every word, see every submission and aim to report ( factually) what took place...

Several local and national papers and local Melb radio stations have had "exclusive" eyewitness reports, and they too are not all that conclusive on what took place after the cyclists all stopped at the crossing, and the old gent started to cross...but one thing that is for certain, on all the "eyewitness" reports, the Hell Ride group riders, did everything right, the lead group had a green, the group was stretched, the lights changed mid group and riders then stopped in the Hell Ride for the light ...it was riders behind who passed the stopped riders who hit the old gent, and they too went down on the road....
it is not proven conclusively that the rider/s who collided at the crossing where even part of the Hell Ride group, were just trying to stay with a faster bunch?, or were not looking ahead? , didnt stop, or couldnt stop? !!!!...It is clear no matter what, the rider charged, rode around the stopped bikes at the crossing and struck the old gent, the reason for doing that will no doubt come out. We cannot forsee a reason that justifies it, but you never know till you hear the direct evidence.

The media frenzy against the Hell Ride on the "eyewitness" accounts I've heard and read are unjustified, sensational and hype...until it is conclusively proven this outcome is a direct result of the Hell Ride...the coroner may make that finding, but I doubt it.

I am not justifying the Hell Ride, or the concept of hard training rides on public roads, as personal responsibility and discharge of duty of care are paramount, but the facts do not support a public outrage that the Hell Ride is responsible for this death, no more than any other bunch of a hundred or so bunches who ride Beach Road on a Saturday morning could be. Every rider has to accept the responsibility for actions taken, likewise every rider has to ensure skill, competancy and awareness. It is these things , if lacking inevitably cause trauma.

Group riding skills are not all that well known by many riders, there is a clear protocol, and a reason for groups, they enhance visibility, they offer protection, they reduce individual effort and thus preserve mental awareness, and they minimise individual attack from errant rogue motorists.

To derive these skills and competancies is not easy for most, and thus there is a problem in itself, that riders think they can join a group anywhere and all will be well...they do not have training, and likewise there are few trainers or facilities where this is available. (Just ask your LBS, they too may not be able to help you out)

It is way past time for all this to be just a problem solved by banning the Hell Ride...that will solve nothing...there is a need across Australia to provide a level of skill and competency assessment to all cyclists, commencing in our schools, and extending to when a bike is purchased, and that certified training courses be part of the road cycling awareness/competency skillset that is required to ride on the road (and I would extend that to drivers as well).

So, perhaps we should all stop speculating, commenting and ranting and be clear on the points that matter for future safe road sharing...and untill we have a holistic approach to road skill competencies, we all:-

• obey the law
• keep a proper lookout
• be predictable, visible and
• accept responsibility as a road user and become competant and skilled, & above all, always, when on or near a road ( as drivers, pedestrians or cyclists) expect the unexpected !

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:39:28 +1000
rooman <rooman.2dchbd@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
>
> Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
>> In aus.bicycle on Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:41:36 +0800
>>
>> How much more careful can he be than wait for cyclists to stop and
>> then cross with the green light?
>>
>> Zebeefact is , we ... and all the commentators, the media and other agenda
> drivers, weren't there and therefore are none the wiser.....
>

No, but there doesn't seem to be any argument that he was crossing at
a green light with riders stopped, and that one rider did not stop.

Whether the rider was an official part of an group that apparently has
no official parts isn't relevant. I have said nothing about the "hell
ride", just that I don't think it right to say the man should have
been more careful.

What could the ped have done to be "more careful" except not cross the
road at all?


Zebee

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:39:28 +1000, rooman wrote:

> It is way past time for all this to be just a problem solved by banning
> the Hell Ride...that will solve nothing...there is a need across
> Australia to provide a level of skill and competency assessment to all
> cyclists, commencing in our schools, and extending to when a bike is
> purchased, and that certified training courses be part of the road
> cycling awareness/competency skillset that is required to ride on the
> road (and I would extend that to drivers as well).

What are you smoking?

This is a rather nasty accident, the cause of which we don't currently
know. It may have been rider error, and at this stage looks as though it
is - but it could just as easily have been a snapped brake cable. We don't
know.

To go from that to requiring a license (which is what you're
advocating, as proof that training and assessment has taken place) is
ridiculous. What about my 3 year old son? He's not on the road yet, but he
has ridden in "road related areas" (aka an empty carpark), and the current
NSW legislation says that the rules apply equally there.

Your scheme is along the lines of registering bicycles - possible, but
impractical. Yes, education schemes would be nice, but they're hardly
necessary. There are quite a few deaths of people riding in a dangerous
manner, but there are also lots of deaths of people driving cars in a
dangerous manner. Education isn't a panacea, especially when there are
young males involved (Guys are dumb like that - I know I've done a few
things that I was lucky to get away with and any male (heck, anyone) who
says they haven't is lying, at least to themselves).

s
--
Dave Hughes | dave@hired-goons.net
"When all you've got is a nailgun, every problem looks like a messiah."
- Iain Chalmers

Cycling development in Brisbane has been interesting. In the 90s the
major ride was from Park Road on Wednesdays and Saturdays, around the
river. It was fast but reasonably sane. As more riders of greater and
lesser skill turned up, it got faster and wilder, plus the road got
more difficult in some places with 'traffic calming'. A rider Nick F
began a new ride starting across the river at Southbank, going on
different routes - the 'Star Coffee' ride. The key difference was Nick
stood up and emphasised control and discipline. The Star ride has
become an institution itself. It usually has three groups of different
pace, and still has discipline emphasised, which the riders welcome.
New riders quickly form into the culture and not often have to be told
to shape up or bugger off. There are now many more riders than in the
early 90s, in many new bunches starting at all sorts of places and
doing many different routes. The main Park Road ride remains a little
wilder than most, but really there is quite a good culture of control,
so you rarely see a bunch that is riding other than two abreast and
stopping at lights etc.

Donga

You've created a incorrect assumption there.

Was licensing or rego mentioned ONCE? No, it wasn't.

'roo is directly refering the WoJ line:
http://www.woj.com.au/2006/08/29/whe...media-release/

Education, Enforcement, Accountability

What you are trying to read into 'roo's statement is completely spurious. How can developing suitable courses for returning adult cyclists be a push for licensing? Wheels of Justice DO NOT support registration licensing schemes for cyclists.

WoJ supports behaviour modification, awareness, and enhanced training courses for all road users.

Please do not attempt to start a spurious discussion at what you've apparently perceived, as it simply isn't there for starters.