Fast Freddy vs. Joshua G.

Fast Freddy vs. Joshua G.

Given all the debate going on about Fast Freddy's new bent and Joshua G's opinion of said bent I
only think it is fair to compare the two sources of this dispute (Given the limited amount of
information available). So here goes...

Passion

Both Fast Freddy and Joshua G. are passionate about what they believe
in. In Fast Freddy's case, we have seen first hand his strong belief that Tour Easy Recumbents are
the best on the market without exception. He has defended this belief time and again. He also
has very strong opinions on OSS vs. USS.

In Joshua G's case, we have seen first hand his strong belief on Recumbents, Economics, Americans,
Car Drivers, Guns, Teachers and many, many other topics. His passion is very strong, but his topics
can be very OT.

Advantage: Even. Both are very passionate about their beliefs and are not afraid to say so.

Knowledge

Fast Freddy has many years of experience racing, building and selling recumbents. He has had great
success in each of these cases and still is successful today. Many people would consider him a
"Seasoned and highly respected Professional" with the emphasis placed on the word Professional.

Joshua G. uses recumbent bicycles and trikes for commuting and recreational purposes. I have not
seen any evidence that would show that he has any experience beyond this. His attempts to bring a
Recumbent Trike to market have resulted in what many people would call "Vapor Ware". His proposed
business strategies and his critiques of the business strategy of several long time bent
manufacturers have been very questionable.

Advantage: Fast Freddy (Big time)

Communication Skills

Fast Freddy has a tendency to be very blunt in what he says and does not sugar coat anything.
Because of this, there have been times when he has drawn the ire of some people (including me)

Joshua G. is very articulate and excels at spinning a tall tale. His writing shows a great sense of
humor as well as irony. Some of his posts have had people rolling in the aisles and others just
shaking their heads in disbelief. In almost all cases they are well written. He does have a tendency
when replying to posts to misquote or to quote out of context in what is believed to be an attempt
to garner a greater response.

Slight Advantage: Joshua G.

Values

Fast Freddy spends his time raising his children, building and selling recumbents and racing
recumbents. This is evidenced by his history in racing and his work at Easy Racers as well as by the
quote given below and the fact that his children now race with him.

Post by Ken33: "Over lunch, Freddy and I talk about his experience at the 1976 Olympics, his Race
Across America bid, and how much he loves his kids. What a nice guy. "

Joshua G. revels in creating, participating in and reporting confrontational situations. He also has
shown a tendency to be very irresponsible in regards to the safety of his daughter as shown by his
post quoted below.

"I destroyed the .357 after I walked in on my daughter and one of her girlfriends playing Russian
Roullete with it. When I took it away I poitned out that if the Safety had not been on...one of them
would have been dead. For reasons unknown I showed the girls how to remove the safety and then I put
it down on a desk and went to make a coffee. The girlfriend (still thinking it was a toy or a
replica) pointed it at the livingroom window and fired."

Advantage: Fast Freddy

Summary:

Fast Freddy is a respected professional and family man who has a tendency to put his foot in
his mouth.

Joshua G. is like the guy who comes into the bar and livens up the place for a while with his tall
tales, extravagant business plans, quick wit and flamboyant style, but who eventually becomes a mean
drunk, lashing out at anything coming his way, that everyone wishes would just leave.

Conclusion:

Well… you know my conclusion.

William Meacham Mesa, AZ

William U write good and I agree with most of it. btw my 5 kids don't like bicycles, they only liked
cars. The Tall Tales part I must disagree with, lying has never been something I was good at and
therefore I have avoided doing it.

I have said this before to quite a few "regulars" on this NG who send me private Email, I see myself
(often) as the person who provides Comic Relief to a NG that sometimes takes itself too seriously
and ends in people getting hurt. By my sending the NG off in a new direction I can (sometimes) get
people to laugh at themselves...and at me. The thread about the Calfee bent however was Not part of
this distraction/humour routine I sometimes bring into the NG.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

"William Meacham" <william.meacham@sccmail.maricopa.edu> wrote in message
news:f693d45.0303051206.2a3a8d97@posting.google.com...
> Fast Freddy vs. Joshua G.
>
> Given all the debate going on about Fast Freddy's new bent and Joshua G's opinion of said bent I
> only think it is fair to compare the two sources of this dispute (Given the limited amount of
> information available). So here goes...
>
> Passion
>
> Both Fast Freddy and Joshua G. are passionate about what they believe
> in. In Fast Freddy's case, we have seen first hand his strong belief that Tour Easy Recumbents
> are the best on the market without exception. He has defended this belief time and again. He
> also has very strong opinions on OSS vs. USS.
>
> In Joshua G's case, we have seen first hand his strong belief on Recumbents, Economics, Americans,
> Car Drivers, Guns, Teachers and many, many other topics. His passion is very strong, but his
> topics can be very OT.
>
> Advantage: Even. Both are very passionate about their beliefs and are not afraid to say so.
>
> Knowledge
>
> Fast Freddy has many years of experience racing, building and selling recumbents. He has had great
> success in each of these cases and still is successful today. Many people would consider him a
> "Seasoned and highly respected Professional" with the emphasis placed on the word Professional.
>
> Joshua G. uses recumbent bicycles and trikes for commuting and recreational purposes. I have not
> seen any evidence that would show that he has any experience beyond this. His attempts to bring a
> Recumbent Trike to market have resulted in what many people would call "Vapor Ware". His proposed
> business strategies and his critiques of the business strategy of several long time bent
> manufacturers have been very questionable.
>
> Advantage: Fast Freddy (Big time)
>
> Communication Skills
>
> Fast Freddy has a tendency to be very blunt in what he says and does not sugar coat anything.
> Because of this, there have been times when he has drawn the ire of some people (including me)
>
> Joshua G. is very articulate and excels at spinning a tall tale. His writing shows a great sense
> of humor as well as irony. Some of his posts have had people rolling in the aisles and others just
> shaking their heads in disbelief. In almost all cases they are well written. He does have a
> tendency when replying to posts to misquote or to quote out of context in what is believed to be
> an attempt to garner a greater response.
>
> Slight Advantage: Joshua G.
>
>
> Values
>
> Fast Freddy spends his time raising his children, building and selling recumbents and racing
> recumbents. This is evidenced by his history in racing and his work at Easy Racers as well as by
> the quote given below and the fact that his children now race with him.
>
> Post by Ken33: "Over lunch, Freddy and I talk about his experience at the 1976 Olympics, his Race
> Across America bid, and how much he loves his kids. What a nice guy. "
>
> Joshua G. revels in creating, participating in and reporting confrontational situations. He also
> has shown a tendency to be very irresponsible in regards to the safety of his daughter as shown by
> his post quoted below.
>
> "I destroyed the .357 after I walked in on my daughter and one of her girlfriends playing Russian
> Roullete with it. When I took it away I poitned out that if the Safety had not been on...one of
> them would have been dead. For reasons unknown I showed the girls how to remove the safety and
> then I put it down on a desk and went to make a coffee. The girlfriend (still thinking it was a
> toy or a replica) pointed it at the livingroom window and fired."
>
> Advantage: Fast Freddy
>
> Summary:
>
> Fast Freddy is a respected professional and family man who has a tendency to put his foot in
> his mouth.
>
> Joshua G. is like the guy who comes into the bar and livens up the place for a while with his tall
> tales, extravagant business plans, quick wit and flamboyant style, but who eventually becomes a
> mean drunk, lashing out at anything coming his way, that everyone wishes would just leave.
>
> Conclusion:
>
> Well. you know my conclusion.
>
>
> William Meacham Mesa, AZ

William Meacham wrote:

> Summary:
>
> Fast Freddy is a respected professional and family man who has a tendency to put his foot in
> his mouth.
>
> Joshua G. is like the guy who comes into the bar and livens up the place for a while with his tall
> tales, extravagant business plans, quick wit and flamboyant style, but who eventually becomes a
> mean drunk, lashing out at anything coming his way, that everyone wishes would just leave.

But will potential customers of a $3000 bike care either way?

Paul Bruneau <paul@ethicalpaul.com> wrote in message news:<v6g7h2kup6l00d@corp.supernews.com>...
> William Meacham wrote:
>
> > Summary:
> >
> > Fast Freddy is a respected professional and family man who has a tendency to put his foot in his
> > mouth.
> >
> > Joshua G. is like the guy who comes into the bar and livens up the place for a while with his
> > tall tales, extravagant business plans, quick wit and flamboyant style, but who eventually
> > becomes a mean drunk, lashing out at anything coming his way, that everyone wishes would just
> > leave.
>
> But will potential customers of a $3000 bike care either way?

First off, why does it matter if it is a $3000 bike that Fast Freddy wants to produce. If
Bacchetta, Rotator or Reynolds Weld Lab introduced a high dollar bike (and they have) would people
be screaming "foul!!!"

But to give my answer to the question...

With a low cost product I don't believe that customers care that much about the reputation of the
company. If it's cheap enough, it becomes worth the risk.

With a high dollar product, reputation becomes very important. Two recent examples demonstrate this
very well.

1) Bacchetta. The gentlemen who started this company are established professionals with a great
reputation. People were anxious to see the new product and even where there were initial
problems they knew the company would stand behind their product.

2) Bigha. The people that are trying to produce this bike have pretty much blown their credibility
through the BikeE fiasco. Their attempts to promote this bike have been meet with ridicule and
biting sarcasm on this discussion group and others[1]. Their chances of launching a high dollar
product do not look overly promising given these responses.

Blowhard Meacham Mesa, AZ

[3]Now in the big picture of recumbentsy (is that a word?) I don't think that these discussion
groups mount to a hill of beans. What I mean is that if you think that what you state on this
board has a direct effect on the industry, you need to let some air out of your overinflated ego
(Joshua???). We are all pretty much a bunch of blowhards sitting around the barber shop talking
crap[2]. I do believe however, that this bunch of blowhards is a pretty good indicator of what
the bent community is thinking as a whole.

[4]There are exceptions. One of the neatest things about this board is that major players in the
industry will throw in their two cents worth every now and then. If one of them writes in, I can
almost see this whole group stop arguing with each other and listen to what is said.

"Joshua Goldberg" <salmagundi@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<m8B9a.4723$KJ3.751471@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> William U write good and I agree with most of it. btw my 5 kids don't like bicycles, they only
> liked cars. The Tall Tales part I must disagree with, lying has never been something I was good at
> and therefore I have avoided doing it.
>
> I have said this before to quite a few "regulars" on this NG who send me private Email, I see
> myself (often) as the person who provides Comic Relief to a NG that sometimes takes itself too
> seriously and ends in people getting hurt. By my sending the NG off in a new direction I can
> (sometimes) get people to laugh at themselves...and at me. The thread about the Calfee bent
> however was Not part of this distraction/humour routine I sometimes bring into the NG.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
>

tall tale
n : an improbable (unusual or incredible or fanciful) story Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton
University

Just because I say that you tell tall tales doesn't mean I'm saying you lie (OK, once I said you
lied). I just believe that you like to imbellish the truth a little.

In the case of the Calfee thread, maybe you are the one who has taken yourself to seriously. Hmmmm?
Maybe you should take a step back, calm down, (Sober up you mean drunk), realize that you where out
of line and appologize to Fast Freddy and the group.

Tall tale.

I grew up in a town where it was so windy it took four men and a boy to nail a cowhide over
a keyhole.

Wild Bill Meacham Mesa, AZ

> With a high dollar product, reputation becomes very important. Two recent examples demonstrate
> this very well.
>
> 1) Bacchetta. The gentlemen who started this company are established professionals with a great
> reputation. People were anxious to see the new product and even where there were initial
> problems they knew the company would stand behind their product.
>
> 2) Bigha. The people that are trying to produce this bike have pretty much blown their credibility
> through the BikeE fiasco. Their attempts to promote this bike have been meet with ridicule and
> biting sarcasm on this discussion group and others[1]. Their chances of launching a high dollar
> product do not look overly promising given these responses.

I would put it that the fact that Bacchetta made a bike FOR THIS CROWD (not all of us, but certainly
of the "sporting" persuation) has a heck of a lot more to do with their reception in the bent
community. And the fact that Bigha made a bike for wedgie rider transitionals and not the speed
demons, with their reception. After all Cannondale had as fine a rep as anyone, and folks here were
lining up to take shots at their "trans-bike". Easy to way to tell, change the Baccetta bikes to
Bigha labels and vice versa. WHich bike is now more appealing?

William Meacham wrote:
> Paul Bruneau <paul@ethicalpaul.com> wrote in message news:<v6g7h2kup6l00d@corp.supernews.com>...
>
>>William Meacham wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Summary:
>>>
>>>Fast Freddy is a respected professional and family man who has a tendency to put his foot in
>>>his mouth.
>>>
>>>Joshua G. is like the guy who comes into the bar and livens up the place for a while with
>>>his tall tales, extravagant business plans, quick wit and flamboyant style, but who
>>>eventually becomes a mean drunk, lashing out at anything coming his way, that everyone
>>>wishes would just leave.
>>
>>But will potential customers of a $3000 bike care either way?
>
>
> First off, why does it matter if it is a $3000 bike that Fast Freddy wants to produce. If
> Bacchetta, Rotator or Reynolds Weld Lab introduced a high dollar bike (and they have) would people
> be screaming "foul!!!"

Dearest fellow LWB USS rider:

I'm not screaming foul. I wish every bent manufacturer all the luck in the world. I was just trying
to understand how that "a.r.b.r. scorecard" related to proposed sales of a bike (which happens to
cost $3000). I have no opinion on the bike or anything.

Well Paul I had an Opinion on the Fast Freddy bent and was offered $1,000.00, seems like more people
should be rewarded with such $ offers. $3,000.00 for the bent (is not) such a high price when you
consider the Fairing alone (with) mounting hardware will be a major slice of the total price,
fairings with mounting hardware are NOT cheap. I would think most recreational riders would prefer
their fairing to be clear, but some like the solid look too....(when) angled properly....see
HPV-Heaven in the U.K. re: a solid black shell fairing at a more reasonable angle. I would guess
that the individual components of the Calfee bent will justify most of the $3K asking price....if it
ever gets to market. AND I also wish Fast Freddy all the best and hope his design does sell (after
Dec.31, 2003 so I gets me money).

As for William Meacham (below) On the Mean Drunk lashing out at ANYTHING Well if you look at
Google Advanced you'll see that in the over 2,000 messages I posted to this NG....this Fast
Freddy/Calfee bent was the ONLY time I lashed out. I was even saying nice things about the BigHa
when everyone else was digging a hole and burying it alive. Very little ever affects me the way
the Fast Freddy/Calfee bent did and I guess I saved it all up and let it rain down on the design
from Fast Freddy.

As for your suggestion that I should apologize to Fast Freddy and the NG....No Way, I only offered
my Opinion as someone who has been bent 25 years and went through 15 bents....none socked, but 3
faired. I was NOT Expecting the Spanish Inquisition (minus the Comfy Chair)-->(Mikael enter Python
here) for offering my Opinion. I was hoping Fast Freddy (would) think about what problems I saw and
see if they were valid...NOT respond by threatening me and then offering me $$ to leave this NG.
Seems Fast Freddy ONLY wants happy smiling people in this NG who like leaning forward kissing his
ASS...(above seat steering).

You know William, when you start asking people to Apologize for offering their Opinion, then people
will stop offering their Opinion, lose interest in the NG and leave. If it wasn't for people like
Tom Sherman, Mikael, Tom Blum, Gator (before the lobotomy) Bob, Carol.C. and Doug Huffman & a few
others this NG would be BORING and a mindless NG limited to Technical Q & A and void of any emotion.
IMHO Opinions MUST be tolerated here. Censorship SUCKS.

Still think you folks should just elect me as your leader and let me decide how this NG should be
run. Hmmmm "King Joshua de Bent"...sounds good to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
"Paul Bruneau" <paul@ethicalpaul.com> wrote in message news:v6k1c5jk71ref4@corp.supernews.com...
> William Meacham wrote:
> > Paul Bruneau <paul@ethicalpaul.com> wrote in message
news:<v6g7h2kup6l00d@corp.supernews.com>...
> >
> >>William Meacham wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Summary:
> >>>
> >>>Fast Freddy is a respected professional and family man who has a tendency to put his foot in
> >>>his mouth.
> >>>
> >>>Joshua G. is like the guy who comes into the bar and livens up the place for a while with his
> >>>tall tales, extravagant business plans, quick wit and flamboyant style, but who eventually
> >>>becomes a mean drunk, lashing out at anything coming his way, that everyone wishes would just
> >>>leave.
> >>
> >>But will potential customers of a $3000 bike care either way?
> >
> >
> > First off, why does it matter if it is a $3000 bike that Fast Freddy wants to produce. If
> > Bacchetta, Rotator or Reynolds Weld Lab introduced a high dollar bike (and they have) would
> > people be screaming "foul!!!"
>
> Dearest fellow LWB USS rider:
>
> I'm not screaming foul. I wish every bent manufacturer all the luck in the world. I was just
> trying to understand how that "a.r.b.r. scorecard" related to proposed sales of a bike (which
> happens to cost $3000). I have no opinion on the bike or anything.

"Joshua Goldberg" skrev...
> I was NOT Expecting the Spanish Inquisition (minus the Comfy Chair)-->(Mikael enter Python here)
> for offering my Opinion.

I can't. Cardinal Biggles has a hangover from yesterday.

M.

Damn 2 years ago I was doing a Philosophy course and as it turned out my Professor (female) was a
really big Monty Python fanatic who had memorized every line from their Flying Circus skits and
movies. Then I arrived. We Hijacked the entire class and no one had a clue what was happening (young
folk who knew NOT about Python). It got very silly after a few weeks and the final straw was when
she asked all the students who was more important in Philosophy...Albert Camus, Plato or John
Cleese. Most said Cleese...thinking that since she and I spent soooo much time talking about Cleese,
they reasoned he WAS a Giant in Philosophy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Mikael Seierup" <briangoebbels@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b4d8dq$1tvejk$1@ID-169681.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Joshua Goldberg" skrev...
> > I was NOT Expecting the Spanish Inquisition (minus the Comfy Chair)-->(Mikael enter Python here)
> > for offering my Opinion.
>
> I can't. Cardinal Biggles has a hangover from yesterday.
>
> M.

"Joshua Goldberg" <salmagundi@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<D1qaa.8364$KJ3.1128024@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> Damn 2 years ago I was doing a Philosophy course and as it turned out my Professor (female) was a
> really big Monty Python fanatic who had memorized every line from their Flying Circus skits and
> movies. Then I arrived. We Hijacked the entire class and no one had a clue what was happening
> (young folk who knew NOT about Python). It got very silly after a few weeks and the final straw
> was when she asked all the students who was more important in Philosophy...Albert Camus, Plato or
> John Cleese. Most said Cleese...thinking that since she and I spent soooo much time talking about
> Cleese, they reasoned he WAS a Giant in Philosophy.

Back on topic: http://www.bike-repair-man.de/brm-en.htm !!

Jeff Wills (son of a Philosophy major who went on to honest work: he became a history professor! His
latest: http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/fall01/032278.htm )

> I had an Opinion on the Fast Freddy bent and was offered $1,000.00, seems like more people should
> be rewarded with such $ offers. $3,000.

How do we know this actually happened?

> Censorship SUCKS.

So does this entire thread.

Derek

You DON'T know it actually happened, but since I did "save" his emails and the one offering me the
$1,000. was printed and Framed (since it is so rare anyone offers me $ for being correct)....I could
send you a copy if you wanna read it.
-------------------------------------------
"Derek Swift" <bentcruiser@care2.com> wrote in message
news:19691231182407353-0600@news.vigoris.net...
> > I had an Opinion on the Fast Freddy bent and was offered $1,000.00, seems like more people
> > should be rewarded with such $ offers. $3,000.
>
> How do we know this actually happened?
>
> > Censorship SUCKS.
>
> So does this entire thread.
>
> Derek

I suppose it was smart on Fast Freddy's part to e-mail you this proposal or challenge...if he did. I
say "smart" and "if" because this could have easily have been e-mail generated by anyone.

Personally, I do not care how this turns out. If he wins, a bent hits the market. If you win, you
are $1,000 richer.

Derek

In <Cg0ba.2445$Mz.157266@news20.bellglobal.com> Joshua Goldberg wrote:
> You DON'T know it actually happened, but since I did "save" his emails and the one offering me the
> $1,000. was printed and Framed ( since it is so rare anyone offers me $ for being correct)....I
> could send you a copy if you wanna read it. ------------------------------------------- "Derek
> Swift" <bentcruiser@care2.com> wrote in message news:19691231182407353-0600@news.vigoris.net...
>> > I had an Opinion on the Fast Freddy bent and was offered $1,000.00, seems like more people
>> > should be rewarded with such $ offers. $3,
>> > 000.
>>
>> How do we know this actually happened?
>>
>> > Censorship SUCKS.
>>
>> So does this entire thread.
>>
>> Derek
>

E-Mail generated by someone else? I checked his email address with his email address stored in my
address book from last year (same address). Seems (as I have been told by others), Fast Freddy has
sent them some pretty emotionally charged emails when they dared to disagree with him. He only
appears every few months on the NG, seems to really dislike people who do not agree with him and
then he dissappears again.

*Personally I'd enjoy having someone with his bent experience asking/answering questions on this NG
more often...should liven the Group up more. It would however be a bad thing if every post turns
into a flame war with non-stop attacks on his character.

I wasn't being critical of Fast Freddy initially, I was just of the opinion the Calfee prototype was
NOT something anyone would buy (if) it went to market (as is). I assumed being a prototype it would
be changed and then I got nailed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
"Derek Swift" <bentcruiser@care2.com> wrote in message
news:20030310100215928-0600@news.vigoris.net...
> I suppose it was smart on Fast Freddy's part to e-mail you this proposal or challenge...if he did.
> I say "smart" and "if" because this could have easily have been e-mail generated by anyone.
>
> Personally, I do not care how this turns out. If he wins, a bent hits the market. If you win, you
> are $1,000 richer.
>
> Derek
>
>
> In <Cg0ba.2445$Mz.157266@news20.bellglobal.com> Joshua Goldberg wrote:
> > You DON'T know it actually happened, but since I did "save" his emails and the one offering me
> > the $1,000. was printed and Framed ( since it is so rare anyone offers me $ for being
> > correct)....I could send you a copy if you wanna read
it. -------------------------------------------
> > "Derek Swift" <bentcruiser@care2.com> wrote in message
> > news:19691231182407353-0600@news.vigoris.net...
> >> > I had an Opinion on the Fast Freddy bent and was offered $1,000.00, seems like more people
> >> > should be rewarded with such $ offers. $3,
> >> > 000.
> >>
> >> How do we know this actually happened?
> >>
> >> > Censorship SUCKS.
> >>
> >> So does this entire thread.
> >>
> >> Derek
> >
> >