London car tax increases folder sales

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/bicyc...ent_id=1879827

Oh Goodie...I just agreed to start selling Folding (Dahon clones) and Folding dual disc & dual
suspension Mtbs. Now if I can just convince every mayor in North America to levy such a surcharge
I'll be yachting off the Caymans in no time.

I doubt the $8.00 surcharge will stay in London, shopkeepers will go balistic if the tax turns
traffic away from the city core. Urban cores in North America will die without suburbanites in their
cars heading into town to do thier shopping, going to stadiums, arenas, art galleries, concert halls
(most of which is in the city core across America).

Toronto has solved the city core pollution & crowding issue by making the road surfaces unfit for
anything except a Hummer. The reason why the bike trails have such good road surfaces is because no
one can get to the trails without having their suspension ripped out via the city street potholes.
----------------------------
"john riley" <lostjohnriley@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:8171373e.0305020235.63769351@posting.google.com...
>
http://www.bicycleretailer.com/bicyc...ent_id=1879827

Wile E.Coyote <evsolutions@bellnet.ca> wrote:
>
> I doubt the $8.00 surcharge will stay in London, shopkeepers will go balistic if the tax turns
> traffic away from the city core. Urban cores in North America will die without suburbanites in
> their cars heading into town to do thier shopping, going to stadiums, arenas, art galleries,
> concert halls (most of which is in the city core across America).
>

Well, I haven't seen the kind of congestion of London in the kind of car-based city in the US you
are referring to. Haven't been there for quite a while due to obvious reasons, so I might be wrong.

As far as I understand, most people working in London are happy about it, although there are always
the complainers who think they are charged 'with just an extra tax' - or who have legitimate
reasons to oppose the surcharge. Actually, they way the trafficproblems in London have changed
might cause more European cities to move into this direction, creating new opportunities for people
selling recumbents to offer their product as a superious alternative to public transport or
ordinary bikes ;-)

ciao,

Niels

"Wile E.Coyote" <evsolutions@bellnet.ca> wrote in message
news:<ylusa.446$S%.47380@news20.bellglobal.com>... [...] Urban cores in
> North America will die without suburbanites in their cars heading into town to do thier shopping,
> going to stadiums, arenas, art galleries, concert halls (most of which is in the city core across
> America).

Which is not a problem, because there are freeways through the hearts of most American cities, which
lead right to the parking lots and garages. The things you mention, plus a few bank office
buildings, are about all there is in many American downtowns. You can shoot a cannon off at noon
without fear of harm to man, beast or building.

London, being a _real_ city, and a very old one at that, is a whole other deal.

john riley

J.R.Think we'd need an urban planner to wade in2 this. I am not an urban planner, but I do remember
some of debates when the Toll Booth idea came up to fund city core road repairs, $ for policing
etc. Cities who were bedroom communities for Toronto went haywire over the toll plan and city
core merchants killed the plan. Cinemas closed all over the city core (after) the City started
raising parking meter and garage parking fees. Each new tax brings with it hardship for sectors
of the core. IF the Mayor of London does this $8.00 charge per car, will it reduce the number of
commuters?, will it jam more people into the already over crowded tube, will it be an incetive
for more sprawl. As a cyclist I agree with any measure that reduces the # of cars in this or any
city. Reduce the number of parking spaces and you get cars "cruising" for a free space (adding
pollution to the air). Raise parking meter costs and small businesses suffer. Cul de Sac streets
and plant speed bumps and change the direction of streets in the core and people will avoid
those areas and be concentrated into areas that cyclists need to ride in.

$8.00 per day btw sounds like nothing, do a 6 day work week and people are paying $2500.00 extra per
year. Add the high petrol costs in London, the parking fees are not too cheap either and mass public
transit looks great...IF IT WORKED

Real solution is live, work and play in the city you call home and stop building expressways to
carry 1/2 million commuters in/out of the city everyday becuase they prefer to pay taxes and sleep
in another city.
----------------------------------------------------------

"john riley" <lostjohnriley@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:8171373e.0305021656.529c63d7@posting.google.com...
> "Wile E.Coyote" <evsolutions@bellnet.ca> wrote in message
news:<ylusa.446$S%.47380@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> [...] Urban cores in
> > North America will die without suburbanites in their cars heading into
town
> > to do thier shopping, going to stadiums, arenas, art galleries, concert halls (most of which is
> > in the city core across America).
>
> Which is not a problem, because there are freeways through the hearts of most American cities,
> which lead right to the parking lots and garages. The things you mention, plus a few bank office
> buildings, are about all there is in many American downtowns. You can shoot a cannon off at noon
> without fear of harm to man, beast or building.
>
> London, being a _real_ city, and a very old one at that, is a whole other deal.
>
> john riley

Like most N. Am cities, Toronto and the province encourage people to live out and drive (sprawl). Housing and taxes are cheaper the further out you go. After you set everything up to encourage people to drive, you don't get very far then telling them not to.

I wonder if the number of movie screens in the Toronto core has gone down? Some theaters have closed but others have opened. For movies, parking itsn't that bad. If there are two people in the car, parking is still often cheaper than taking transit! (Problem for parking for me is those damn 24 hour clocks on the machines. Late in the day, I have trouble subtracting 12 from all the times ;-)

johnriley1 (at) rogers.com

Wile E.Coyote <evsolutions@bellnet.ca> wrote:
> Think we'd need an urban planner to wade in2 this.

Yay Ok, I'll allow myself a short more or less off-topic response as I studied planning in the
netherlands

> I am not an urban planner, but I do remember some of debates when the Toll Booth idea came up to
> fund city core road repairs, $ for policing etc. Cities who were bedroom communities for Toronto
> went haywire over the toll plan and city core merchants killed the plan.

The difference is that in London, the congestionproblems added to the legitimacy of this scheme. As
they have more tube-problems than congestion in the city-centre, the scheme is accepted as
reasonable by most ppl who travel by car into the centre As far as I know. The scheme works, which is great
news. Yet, it works partly because it was so badly needed. No '1 stop solution for the traffic
problem', unfortunately.

> number of commuters?, will it jam more people into the already over crowded tube, will it be an
> incetive for more sprawl.

It does both things, yet the city-centre of London remains a very attractive location for
businesses, being a huge financial centre. And, house-prices within the zone have already gone up.
Extra sprawl might happen, but that's probably not as bad as the trafficproblems - it would acutally
be nice to so some of the more 'derelict' area's outside the centre revive themselves on the basis
of this scheme.

>
> Real solution is live, work and play in the city you call home and stop building expressways to
> carry 1/2 million commuters in/out of the city everyday becuase they prefer to pay taxes and sleep
> in another city.
>

Yup, but the perfect city has been tried before, and the planners always seen to forget the 'human
factor', as in people who shape the space they use, in the ways they use it. So, you'll just have
to deal with 'not perfect' cities, and try to make the best of it. By biking through them, for
instance ;-)

ciao,

Niels

I have news, Joshua. Not only is the five quid London congestion charge here to stay, but other
cities in the UK are looking to follow suit. People who are rich enough to pay for parking when
shopping / eating / going to the theatre / cinema / opera / whatever in central London will not
flinch at the prospect of another fiver on top. A FOAF used to commute about five miles into central
London and paid eighteen pounds each day of a five day week to park.

The business about the folders does not surprise either - the number of Bromptons I see on a daily
basis seems to be increasing exponentially.

Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================

Is the $ being used for something that the heaving masses is in support of? In a place like Toronto
(unless) the $ was used to feed starving kids in Africa or save dolphins (cat food), people would
fight the fee.
------------------------
"Dave Larrington" <legs_larry@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b9881t$gek7o$2@ID-120318.news.dfncis.de...
> I have news, Joshua. Not only is the five quid London congestion charge here to stay, but other
> cities in the UK are looking to follow suit.
People
> who are rich enough to pay for parking when shopping / eating / going to
the
> theatre / cinema / opera / whatever in central London will not flinch at
the
> prospect of another fiver on top. A FOAF used to commute about five miles into central London and
> paid eighteen pounds each day of a five day week
to
> park.
>
> The business about the folders does not surprise either - the number of Bromptons I see on a daily
> basis seems to be increasing exponentially.
>
> Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
> ===========================================================
> Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
> http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
> ===========================================================

Joshua asked:

> Is the $ being used for something that the heaving masses is in support of?

The theory is that it will go towards funding improvements in the public transport system. This is
one thing which those who live and / or work in London universally[1] agree to be a Good Thing.

1 - well, almost. Those members of Bromley Council who nobbled Ken Livingstone's Fares Fair policy
in days gone by are surely not yet all dead.

Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================

Latest reports suggest that far from generating a bonanza to fund public transport, the London congestion charge doesn't really cover its costs. Its profit at the moment is attributable to fines on offenders. A high percentage of drivers who appeal against fines are acquitted. Once this becomes widely known, the fines revenue will decrease.

Exactly the same happened with parking meters in London, which were expected to be a money-spinner but ended up costing more than they produced.

Chris

ChrisW <usenet-forum@cyclingforums.com> wrote:
: Exactly the same happened with parking meters in London, which were expected to be a money-spinner
: but ended up costing more than they produced.

So would the sensible way have been to just double parking fees? You can even replace conventional
parking meters with a computerized system, for cheaper maintenance (eg.
http://www.parkit.fi/in_english.html ).

Success of folders could be good news for bents, because some parts are the same, and sometimes the
shops are the same too...

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/ varis at no spam please iki fi