Carbon Fiber 4 Dummies?

Anyone know of any books or articles, on-line manuals etc. that show how to work with Carbon
Fiber...(for bike frames would be nice), but would settle for just learning the basics.

"Wile E.Coyote" <evsolutions@bellnet.ca> wrote in message
news:Q4gua.8980$VJ.537356@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Anyone know of any books or articles, on-line manuals etc. that show how
to
> work with Carbon Fiber...(for bike frames would be nice), but would settle for just learning
> the basics.
>
I don't know of any a books about the process, but I can tell you I've been a factory that produced
Kestrel lookalike carbon fiber frames and the process wasn't pretty. I wouldn't want to work there
for even a day. yuch. Helped me appreciate steel frames.

skip

There's very little difference between cf lay-ups and standard e-glass (fiberglass) lay-ups. Any current composties books/manuals will be valuable.

The most important basic about working with carbon fiber, is to leave it to those who have
professional quality protective masks. Dry carbon fiber (sometimes called graphite), when cut, gives
off some nasty little particles. Some of them are visible and may be filtered out by standard masks.
However, there are tiny bits that can't be seen, that fill the air and aren't removed by anything
but specialized masks. If you get them into your lungs, they may cause serious trouble. Not all the
long-term effects of these particles are yet known, but I decided years ago not to be a test dummy.

Carbon can give you more rigidity for an equal weight than most other materials. However, this
brittleness does not allow it to resist impacts and bending forces as well as other types of
fibers. It's something better suited to racing bikes that have a short service-life and
high-speed HPVs, than to practical street bicycles. A fiber called S-Glass is about twice as
strong as common fiberglass (E-Glass) and has similar layup characteristics. It's a good match
with epoxy resins and vinylester resins. My favorite for HPVs, Kayaks and other lightweight,
highly-loaded structures, is Dow Chemical's Derakane 8084, a special, rubberized vinylester.
Its cured molecular chains have 4 times the elongation potential and resistance to breaking as
common polyester resin and it also bonds 4 times as well. Contact Dow for information on the
industrial distributors of it, as it's only rarely found as an over-the-counter item. One of
its original purposes was to provide protective linings for pipelines that carry caustic fuels
and chemicals.

Dow also makes another type of vinylester resin, that is fire-resistant. It has a heavy
molecule, that is saturated with extra hydrogen atoms. These atoms fill in the "keyholes" that
would otherwise allow oxygen atoms to enter and combustion to occur at kindling temperature.
This resin is 20% heavier than standard types.

Steve McDonald

On Thu, 8 May 2003 01:12:47, Steve McDonald <bigrocketman3@webtv.net> wrote:

> Carbon can give you more rigidity for an equal weight than most
> other materials. However, this brittleness does not allow it to resist

Stiffness is not synonymous with brittleness.

regards Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

thanx I'll look into the alternative via Dow. "Steve McDonald" <bigrocketman3@webtv.net> wrote in
message news:7444-3EBA117F-127@storefull-211...wson.webtv.net...
>
> The most important basic about working with carbon fiber, is to leave it to those who have
> professional quality protective masks. Dry carbon fiber (sometimes called graphite), when
> cut, gives off some nasty little particles. Some of them are visible and may be filtered out
> by standard masks. However, there are tiny bits that can't be seen, that fill the air and
> aren't removed by anything but specialized masks. If you get them into your lungs, they may
> cause serious trouble. Not all the long-term effects of these particles are yet known, but I
> decided years ago not to be a test dummy.
>
> Carbon can give you more rigidity for an equal weight than most other materials. However,
> this brittleness does not allow it to resist impacts and bending forces as well as other
> types of fibers. It's something better suited to racing bikes that have a short service-life
> and high-speed HPVs, than to practical street bicycles. A fiber called S-Glass is about twice
> as strong as common fiberglass (E-Glass) and has similar layup characteristics. It's a good
> match with epoxy resins and vinylester resins. My favorite for HPVs, Kayaks and other
> lightweight, highly-loaded structures, is Dow Chemical's Derakane 8084, a special, rubberized
> vinylester. Its cured molecular chains have 4 times the elongation potential and resistance
> to breaking as common polyester resin and it also bonds 4 times as well. Contact Dow for
> information on the industrial distributors of it, as it's only rarely found as an
> over-the-counter item. One of its original purposes was to provide protective linings for
> pipelines that carry caustic fuels and chemicals.
>
> Dow also makes another type of vinylester resin, that is fire-resistant. It has a heavy
> molecule, that is saturated with extra hydrogen atoms. These atoms fill in the "keyholes"
> that would otherwise allow oxygen atoms to enter and combustion to occur at kindling
> temperature. This resin is 20% heavier than standard types.
>
> Steve McDonald

"Wile E.Coyote" <evsolutions@bellnet.ca> wrote in message
news:<Q4gua.8980$VJ.537356@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> Anyone know of any books or articles, on-line manuals etc. that show how to work with Carbon
> Fiber...(for bike frames would be nice), but would settle for just learning the basics.

As always, Sheldon Brown's site is a good place to start:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/carbon_fiber.htm

A couple guys from the Portland Streamliner Gang will have homebuilt carbon fiber bikes (frames and
fairings) at the races coming up this month : http://www.ohpv.org/pir2003/2003race.htm such as
http://www.arborrhythms.com/~ben/hpv...s/faired39.jpg (large image!)

Jeff

One piece of advice I have is to avoid trying to make a whole frame with it. Carbon tubes are made
with very exacting methods (low void, no bubbles, etc.) you can't match. They will be stronger,
lighter, and prettier.

Furthermore, clamping carbon cloth lugs to tubes is a far far easier process than laying up a frame.
http://www.calfeedesign.com/construction.shtml shows you how they make their custom lugged carbon
bikes. You can experiment with PVC and fiberglass until you get it right.

As to recumbents, carbon would best be suited to low racers. Carbon's stiffness allows thinner tubes
(to go between your legs) and is better for monotube construction. Although if you want a frame to
flex, titanium is best, and steel is proven. For items that aren't stiffness driven, such as seats
and such, fiberglass is stronger than steel.

You can also use carbon as a way to join or reinforce aluminum. Look out for galvanic corrosion -
west system's etch kit should work well enough. This also applies to joining crank brackets, etc.

As to sanding carbon fiber. First design around having to sand. Second, trimming off the excess with
scissors or a knife when the resin is firm is far easier and safer then sanding it when it is hard.
Wear a mask and goggles rated for it, wet sand (under a constant spray or wash if possible) and do
it outside in an area where the fibers won't collect and blow around when dried.

All that being said, I've screwed around with aluminum and steel, and done fiberglass projects. If
you don't have someone who can weld bikes for a decent price, a DIY carbon would be my
recommendation.

"Wile E.Coyote" <evsolutions@bellnet.ca> wrote in message
news:Q4gua.8980$VJ.537356@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Anyone know of any books or articles, on-line manuals etc. that show how
to
> work with Carbon Fiber...(for bike frames would be nice), but would settle for just learning
> the basics.

Sooo much info...thankyou I wasn't thinking about doing an entire frame in CF, only parts that would
have sweeping curves....too hard to fabricate in metal. I'd like to find out as much as I can and
have someone to do the work for me, I know what I am capable of doing solo and have empty tool
chests and xrays to prove it.
------------------------------
"Robert Haston" <rehaston@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Fxava.64667$ey1.5798099@newsrea....earthlink.net...
> One piece of advice I have is to avoid trying to make a whole frame with
it.
> Carbon tubes are made with very exacting methods (low void, no bubbles, etc.) you can't match.
> They will be stronger, lighter, and prettier.
>
> Furthermore, clamping carbon cloth lugs to tubes is a far far easier
process
> than laying up a frame. http://www.calfeedesign.com/construction.shtml shows you how they
> make their custom lugged carbon bikes. You can experiment with PVC and fiberglass until you
> get it right.
>
> As to recumbents, carbon would best be suited to low racers. Carbon's stiffness allows thinner
> tubes (to go between your legs) and is better for monotube construction. Although if you want a
> frame to flex, titanium is best, and steel is proven. For items that aren't stiffness driven, such
as
> seats and such, fiberglass is stronger than steel.
>
> You can also use carbon as a way to join or reinforce aluminum. Look out for galvanic corrosion -
> west system's etch kit should work well enough. This also applies to joining crank brackets, etc.
>
> As to sanding carbon fiber. First design around having to sand. Second, trimming off the excess
> with scissors or a knife when the resin is firm is far easier and safer then sanding it when it is
> hard. Wear a mask and goggles rated for it, wet sand (under a constant spray or wash if possible)
> and do it outside in an area where the fibers won't collect and blow around when dried.
>
> All that being said, I've screwed around with aluminum and steel, and done fiberglass projects. If
> you don't have someone who can weld bikes for a decent price, a DIY carbon would be my
> recommendation.
>
>
>
> "Wile E.Coyote" <evsolutions@bellnet.ca> wrote in message
> news:Q4gua.8980$VJ.537356@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > Anyone know of any books or articles, on-line manuals etc. that show how
> to
> > work with Carbon Fiber...(for bike frames would be nice), but would
settle
> > for just learning the basics.
> >
>

Actually, curves are easy to do in steel. Look at the M5 Shockproof's (my bike) rear swingarm.

I must admit that a carbon seat built into the frame, or "spoon" frame is about the coolest looking
bike out there.

"Wile E.Coyote" <evsolutions@bellnet.ca> wrote in message
news:WLbva.11256$ER4.967476@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Sooo much info...thankyou I wasn't thinking about doing an entire frame in CF, only parts that
> would have sweeping curves....too hard to fabricate in metal. I'd like to find out as much as I
> can and have someone to do the work for me, I know what I am capable of doing solo and have empty
> tool chests and xrays to prove it.
> ------------------------------
> "Robert Haston" <rehaston@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Fxava.64667$ey1.5798099@newsrea....earthlink.net...
> > One piece of advice I have is to avoid trying to make a whole frame with
> it.
> > Carbon tubes are made with very exacting methods (low void, no bubbles, etc.) you can't match.
> > They will be stronger, lighter, and prettier.
> >
> > Furthermore, clamping carbon cloth lugs to tubes is a far far easier
> process
> > than laying up a frame. http://www.calfeedesign.com/construction.shtml shows you how they make
> > their custom lugged carbon bikes. You can experiment with PVC and fiberglass until you get it
> > right.
> >
> > As to recumbents, carbon would best be suited to low racers. Carbon's stiffness allows thinner
> > tubes (to go between your legs) and is better
for
> > monotube construction. Although if you want a frame to flex, titanium
is
> > best, and steel is proven. For items that aren't stiffness driven, such
> as
> > seats and such, fiberglass is stronger than steel.
> >
> > You can also use carbon as a way to join or reinforce aluminum. Look
out
> > for galvanic corrosion - west system's etch kit should work well enough. This also applies to
> > joining crank brackets, etc.
> >
> > As to sanding carbon fiber. First design around having to sand.
Second,
> > trimming off the excess with scissors or a knife when the resin is firm
is
> > far easier and safer then sanding it when it is hard. Wear a mask and goggles rated for it, wet
> > sand (under a constant spray
or
> > wash if possible) and do it outside in an area where the fibers won't collect and blow around
> > when dried.
> >
> > All that being said, I've screwed around with aluminum and steel, and
done
> > fiberglass projects. If you don't have someone who can weld bikes for a decent price, a DIY
> > carbon would be my recommendation.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Wile E.Coyote" <evsolutions@bellnet.ca> wrote in message
> > news:Q4gua.8980$VJ.537356@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > Anyone know of any books or articles, on-line manuals etc. that show
how
> > to
> > > work with Carbon Fiber...(for bike frames would be nice), but would
> settle
> > > for just learning the basics.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >

"Wile E.Coyote" <evsolutions@bellnet.ca> wrote in message
news:<WLbva.11256$ER4.967476@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> Sooo much info...thankyou I wasn't thinking about doing an entire frame in CF, only parts that
> would have sweeping curves....too hard to fabricate in metal. I'd like to find out as much as I
> can and have someone to do the work for me, I know what I am capable of doing solo and have empty
> tool chests and xrays to prove it.

You might also want to check out http://www.rqriley.com/xr2.html and see if they have any details as
to how they build their frames. The GH is carbon fiber, home built.

"Steve McDonald" skrev...
>
> Ian Smith wrote:
>
> Stiffness is not synonomous with brittleness.
> ____________________________________
>
> Perhaps you can define the words "stiff" and "brittle" and indicate how either of the words
> wouldn't describe some of the characteristics of a carbon-fiber/resin product.

Aren't bikes made of carbon/kevlar anyway to get around that problem? Neither my bike nor the
tailfairing seems stiff or brittle to me.

M.

Curious Is CF brittle in very cold weather...has it been tested at say -25 C? Really don't
know...which is why I'm asking.
----------------------------
"Mikael Seierup" <briangoebbels@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b9qf2f$lvdu8$1@ID-169681.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Steve McDonald" skrev...
> >
> > Ian Smith wrote:
> >
> > Stiffness is not synonomous with brittleness.
> > ____________________________________
> >
> > Perhaps you can define the words "stiff" and "brittle" and indicate how either of the words
> > wouldn't describe some of the characteristics of a carbon-fiber/resin product.
>
> Aren't bikes made of carbon/kevlar anyway to get around that problem? Neither my bike nor the
> tailfairing seems stiff or brittle to me.
>
> M.

On Tue, 13 May 2003 02:30:03, Steve McDonald <bigrocketman3@webtv.net> wrote:
>
> Ian Smith wrote:
>
> Stiffness is not synonomous with brittleness.
> ____________________________________
>
> Perhaps you can define the words "stiff" and "brittle"

They are general words in general useage which have specific meanings. Stiffness is a property
relating how much strain occurs for a given stress (if you like, how much it deflects fro a given
load, with a given configuration). Brittleness is the inverse of toughness and is a measure of how
how likely it is to fracture.

Since you appear to be American, I will quote Mr Webster: "easily broken, cracked or snapped ...
especially under very slight bending". Since I am English, I will quote Shorter Oxford: "liable to
break; easily broken, fragile"

Stiff materials are not necesarily brittle.

Brittle materials are not necesarily stiff.

> My own usage of "stiff" would apply to something that resisted bending and "brittle" would
> describe something that would not only be stiff, but would tend to shatter if bent or impacted.

Of course you're welcome to make up your own meanings to words, but they do not appear to match
general usage.

Your meaning for 'brittle' appears to be that the material does not exhibit plasticity before
fracture. It may be immensely tough (ie not at all brittle, not easy to fracture) and not exhibit
plasticity.

CFRP is not necesarily brittle. A fairly standard grade used in my own industry is pultruded strips
with E around 150 to 165 kN/mm2. Elongation at break is around 0.017. That's a large strain for
engineering materials (mild steel, for example, yields at about 0.001, concrete can start to crush
at about 0.0035). It certainly isn't easily broken under very slight bending.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Ian Smith wrote:
>
> On Tue, 13 May 2003 02:30:03, Steve McDonald <bigrocketman3@webtv.net> wrote:
> >
> > Ian Smith wrote:
> >
> > Stiffness is not synonomous with brittleness.
> > ____________________________________
> >
> > Perhaps you can define the words "stiff" and "brittle"
>
> They are general words in general useage which have specific meanings. Stiffness is a property
> relating how much strain occurs for a given stress (if you like, how much it deflects fro a given
> load, with a given configuration). Brittleness is the inverse of toughness and is a measure of how
> how likely it is to fracture....

A brittle material fractures without gross local yielding, while a ductile material will
exhibit a considerable amount of plastic deformation before fracture occurs. Brittle is the
opposite of ductile.

The resistance to crack propagation is fracture toughness. Ductile materials generally have greater
fracture toughness, but there is not necessarily a direct correlation between ductility and fracture
toughness.

Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)