Stiletto?????? - Page 2

On 18 Jun 2003 10:28:44 -0700, eldberg@cstone.net (Warren Berger) wrote:

>As Dave said, you would have to explain why your fork is "wrong". Selling a recumbent already
>requires hours of explaining. Bikes have been built this way, but inertia is hard to overcome. ....
>http://www.karbonkinetics.com/MGT_copy_big.jpg

Now THAT looks like an awesome bike. Too bad it never went into production (or so I assume).

By the way there is one popular "bike" with what appears to be a negative rake: the Xootr scooter

http://www.xootr.com/

Though they did find it necessary to explain it in their FAQ. And it isn't really negative rake, it
just looks like it because the fork is attached to the front of the "head tube".

Ken Kobayashi kobayash@solar.mtk.nao.ac.jp http://solarwww.mtk.nao.ac.jp/kobayashi/personal/

Last year I was in a LBS that sold BikeEs. They had a BikeE E2 on the floor that I was told was
ordered special by a customer and was not available for a test ride. However I noticed they had put
the fork on backwards. This despite the fact that the disk brake was on the wrong side. I guess the
mechanic thought that the fork should be raked forward not back. Craig

Ken Kobayashi <kobayash@solar.mtk.nao.ac.jp> wrote in message
news:<6va1fv8n7sjev0tsq3n1j2b226hrrneliq@4ax.com>...
> On 18 Jun 2003 10:28:44 -0700, eldberg@cstone.net (Warren Berger) wrote:
>
> >As Dave said, you would have to explain why your fork is "wrong". Selling a recumbent already
> >requires hours of explaining. Bikes have been built this way, but inertia is hard to overcome.
> >.... http://www.karbonkinetics.com/MGT_copy_big.jpg
>
> Now THAT looks like an awesome bike. Too bad it never went into production (or so I assume).
>
> By the way there is one popular "bike" with what appears to be a negative rake: the Xootr scooter
>
> http://www.xootr.com/
>
> Though they did find it necessary to explain it in their FAQ. And it isn't really negative rake,
> it just looks like it because the fork is attached to the front of the "head tube".
>

> Ken Kobayashi kobayash@solar.mtk.nao.ac.jp http://solarwww.mtk.nao.ac.jp/kobayashi/personal/

On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:20:30 +0100, "Dave Larrington" <legs_larry@yahoo.com> wrote:

>sold one example, it barely qualifies as "commercial". The Streetglider had a similar arrangement,
>and by all accounts it handled beautifully, but few were sold. I imagine it may be becuase such a
>bike looks "pre-crashed" to the untutored eye.
>
>Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/

In 1996 I was in London on vacation and I made the trip down to Forrest Row to Future Cycles to test
ride a Streetglider. I was Impressed by the handling and I would have purchased a frame set if they
would have had one in stock. It was the old story.. liability problems kept them from exporting to
the US. It was a really neat machine and I really didn't see "pre-crashed" at all. Too bad they
don't make it any more.

Walt Smith Harrison, OH

> Marci:
>
> Does this mean your brand new V2 Formula is now for sale (at a used price of course)? Well I'm
> green with envy. I wish I had your bike budget. But unfortunately my wife would not find any
> humor in me buying another bike anytime soon.
>
> Brian 02 Tailwind/02 V-Rex

And that's a new V2 Formula that she has probably not taken delivery of yet!;-)

Edward Wong Orlando, FL (With a meager "recumbent budget" but having as much fun as
everyone else:-))

Craig,

> They had a BikeE E2 on the floor...they had put the fork on backwards.

This is a truly scary story. With the fork turned around the "right" way, the E2 would have had
negative trail, and would be dangerous to ride. It is amazing that a shop could be this clueless.

Warren

ewong3@mpinet.net (Edward Wong) wrote in message
news:<53dbf589.0306200302.42df0845@posting.google.com>...
> > Marci:
> >
> > Does this mean your brand new V2 Formula is now for sale (at a used price of course)? Well I'm
> > green with envy. I wish I had your bike budget. But unfortunately my wife would not find any
> > humor in me buying another bike anytime soon.
> >
> > Brian 02 Tailwind/02 V-Rex
>
> And that's a new V2 Formula that she has probably not taken delivery of yet!;-) Haa....you are
> correct. Rans wont even ship them to dealers until
about July 5. And, when I talk about wanting a stiletto, it's in ADDITION to the V2 Formula, not
INSTEAD of...haa. I just really love recumbents and it's such a healthy hobby/addiction. It's just
too much fun. By the way, my Saber will never be for sale. It's the best feeling bike that I have
ever ridden. Like Robert Bryant just wrote on another thread,(starting to believe in high BB), I
like him, have some issues with tingly toes but they are not so pronounced that I can't live with
them and to me, the feel of the saber is worth a small amount of toe tingles. I get no recumbo butt
on the saber and my overall body feels great on the bike, not to mention that I get incredible power
out of it. I would incourage anyone to test ride the Saber. I think the Bacchetta bike, and the
volae are really cool but I know that my neck wont stand the extreme laid back angle ( I have a c-5
neck injury). The Saber to me is the perfect combination of BB to seat height. Marci Marci
> Edward Wong Orlando, FL (With a meager "recumbent budget" but having as much fun as everyone
> else:-))

I just hope they got it fixed before delivering it to the customer. The person I talked to didn't
seem very interested in what I had to say although he did tell me the customer wanted to use it with
some handicapped children. This was an LBS with a chain of stores in the area, they carried BikeE,
Burley, and Cannondale recumbents in addition to a large selection of uprights. I couldn't find
anyone there that actually rode a recumbent unfortunately they were the only really close LBS. Craig

eldberg@cstone.net (Warren Berger) wrote in message
news:<930c70dc.0306200341.760c9849@posting.google.com>...
> Craig,
>
> > They had a BikeE E2 on the floor...they had put the fork on backwards.
>
> This is a truly scary story. With the fork turned around the "right" way, the E2 would have had
> negative trail, and would be dangerous to ride. It is amazing that a shop could be this clueless.
>
> Warren

Ken et al,

As a follow up to our discussion of negative rake, I thought you folks might be interested in this
bike. IMO his claims for increased power are sheer fantasy. If you ignore all the hype, he ends up
with bikes which have the seat, cranks, and h'bars positioned relative to the wheels, in the three
normal positions for upright touring, road racing, track/TT/triathlon. You will notice that the seat
and h'bars move forward, and the h'bars move down as you get into the more extreme uses on an
upright. He tries to make the seat geometry appear more extreme, by having a near vertical seat
tube, but the seat still ends up in the usual place. :-)

The only interesting thing is that he ends up with a pretty steep head angle, which allows him to
run huge trail (I'd guess 6") without much wheel flop at low speed.

Although, that much trial ends up inducing overshoot/shimmy, which he damps out with an adjustable
friction damper. It probably feels rock solid at speed, and makes riding aero bars less scary.

Warren

eldberg@cstone.net (Warren Berger) wrote in news:930c70dc.0307011015.4955d0d7@posting.google.com:

> Ken et al,
>
> As a follow up to our discussion of negative rake, I thought you folks might be interested in this
> bike. IMO his claims for increased power are sheer fantasy.
<snip>

link?

-Bill Hamilton

On 1 Jul 2003 11:15:49 -0700, eldberg@cstone.net (Warren Berger) wrote:
>As a follow up to our discussion of negative rake, I thought you folks might be interested in
>this bike.

Um, which bike? Maybe you left out a link.

Here's another bike with a huge head angle and huge trail:

http://www.uva.ne.jp/~hirata/rodeo.html

The Rodeo, as the name suggests, was designed to be difficult to ride. (Or as the rumor goes, they
had one prototype folding bike which was extremely difficult to ride and they decided to sell it
anyway, marketing it as an exciting challenge.) It took me 10 minutes of practice just to be able to
ride it in a straight line.

Ken Kobayashi kkoba4@yahoo.co.jp http://solarwww.mtk.nao.ac.jp/kobayashi/personal/

Bill,

> Um, which bike? Maybe you left out a link.

Gad! Sorry...not enough coffee?

http://www.flybike.com/

Ken,

> Here's another bike with a huge head angle and huge trail:

I imagine the handling of that bike is....interesting.

Actually, as you would have seen, had I put the link in, I was talking about *steep* head angle, and
huge trail. Sorry again. :-(

Warren

On 2 Jul 2003 06:31:01 -0700, eldberg@cstone.net (Warren Berger) wrote:

>> Um, which bike? Maybe you left out a link.
>
>http://www.flybike.com/

Hey, that's pretty cool. Looks sort of like a semi-prone bike, though maybe the position isn't all
that different from a road bike.

> Here's another bike with a huge head angle and huge trail:
>
>I imagine the handling of that bike is....interesting.

The Rodeo is indeed, um, interesting. Riding it in a straight line is not that hard, but once you
turn the handlebar the huge trail tends to pull the handlebar even further. They tried to market it
as a game (you were supposed to compete with friends for shortest radius turns, slow riding, etc)
but I think they gave up and discontinued it recently. The only advantage is that you can leave it
unlocked and nobody will steal it. (Then again, the same is true for my Thys Rowingbike.)

>Actually, as you would have seen, had I put the link in, I was talking about *steep* head angle,
>and huge trail. Sorry again. :-(

Actually you said it right the first time, I'm the one who misunderstood... Sorry.

Ken Kobayashi kkoba4@yahoo.co.jp http://solarwww.mtk.nao.ac.jp/kobayashi/personal/

Wouldn't that make the wheel wobble like the front wheel on a grocery cart? bg

Warren Berger wrote:

> Bill,
>
> > Um, which bike? Maybe you left out a link.
>
> Gad! Sorry...not enough coffee?
>
> http://www.flybike.com/
>
> Ken,
>
> > Here's another bike with a huge head angle and huge trail:
>
> I imagine the handling of that bike is....interesting.
>
> Actually, as you would have seen, had I put the link in, I was talking about *steep* head angle,
> and huge trail. Sorry again. :-(
>
> Warren

bg,

> Wouldn't that make the wheel wobble like the front wheel on a grocery cart?

No, it won't. Many very stable bikes have been built with steep head angles (even beyond vertical),
and negative rake over the last hundred plus years. See earlier posts on this subject.

Warren

Ken Kobayashi wrote:
> ... The Rodeo is indeed, um, interesting. Riding it in a straight line is not that hard, but once
> you turn the handlebar the huge trail tends to pull the handlebar even further....

This reminds me of the short test ride I took on a BikeE E2 with a tall stoker. It should be noted
that the E2 also has negative rake to the fork and a large amount of trail.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)