Stiletto??????

I've seen pics of the new carbon LWB bike called the "stiletto." I must say that I have always
thought is would be neet to have a carbon fiber bike that was a lwb. I like the weight recuction
without the extreme riding position. However, there is one thing about the stiletto that bugs me. I
really don't like the remote steering. In my opinion, this ruins a great bike. Is this just my issue
or have others thought this?? I wonder if this bike could be ordered with the more traditional
steering??? And, does anyone know the complete bike weight? I have the V2 formula on order and it
weights 26.8 which is pretty light for a LWB bike. Marci

Usually, remote steering allows elimination of "tiller effect" and relaxed head tube angles (from say, 59 degrees to the more traditional DF of 70 degrees or more). This usually improves low speed handling - akin to a SWB. I think Calfree is advertizing 24 lbs.

And yes, there is another LWB on a carbon/titanium diet. And yes, it has TE/Rans non-remote type steering. Sadly, it's owner has no production plans.

I am guessing you could probably order one with a tradition steering setup. I'd guess it'd knock a
pound off the weight as well. The current prototype is 24 lbs ready to ride (no fairing). Once they
get the proper molds for the lugs, that'll knock another pound or so off. Hmm, are you a lighter
girl? Freddy was saying they could make a special light-weight version for smaller folks. Could
maybe get one down to near 20 lbs!!!

"Marci Taylor" <MTa5112910@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8a5340b2.0306161258.25851d39@posting.google.com...
> I've seen pics of the new carbon LWB bike called the "stiletto." I must say that I have always
> thought is would be neet to have a carbon fiber bike that was a lwb. I like the weight recuction
> without the extreme riding position. However, there is one thing about the stiletto that bugs me.
> I really don't like the remote steering. In my opinion, this ruins a great bike. Is this just my
> issue or have others thought this?? I wonder if this bike could be ordered with the more
> traditional steering??? And, does anyone know the complete bike weight? I have the V2 formula on
> order and it weights 26.8 which is pretty light for a LWB bike. Marci

Marci, you should take a mini vacation and visit Northbrook on July 19. You would see some seriously
fast women on low chariots. My crystal ball has Marci cruising missle fast on her home turf on a
Velokraft, or maybe a custom titanium Barcroft Oregon. <tim taylor grunt>. Carbon fibre tail fairing
<another grunt> cruising along flirting with the 30's. <homey
drooling>30...30...
"Marci Taylor" <MTa5112910@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8a5340b2.0306161258.25851d39@posting.google.com...
> I've seen pics of the new carbon LWB bike called the "stiletto." I must say that I have always
> thought is would be neet to have a carbon fiber bike that was a lwb. I like the weight recuction
> without the extreme riding position. However, there is one thing about the stiletto that bugs me.
> I really don't like the remote steering. In my opinion, this ruins a great bike. Is this just my
> issue or have others thought this?? I wonder if this bike could be ordered with the more
> traditional steering??? And, does anyone know the complete bike weight? I have the V2 formula on
> order and it weights 26.8 which is pretty light for a LWB bike. Marci

MTa5112910@aol.com (Marci Taylor) wrote in message
news:<8a5340b2.0306161258.25851d39@posting.google.com>...
> I've seen pics of the new carbon LWB bike called the "stiletto." I must say that I have always
> thought is would be neet to have a carbon fiber bike that was a lwb. I like the weight recuction
> without the extreme riding position. However, there is one thing about the stiletto that bugs me.
> I really don't like the remote steering. In my opinion, this ruins a great bike. Is this just my
> issue or have others thought this?? I wonder if this bike could be ordered with the more
> traditional steering??? And, does anyone know the complete bike weight? I have the V2 formula on
> order and it weights 26.8 which is pretty light for a LWB bike. Marci

Thought I'd go ahead and respond to this one. One thing I never really cared for on my Gold Rush
(and there isn't much)was the front end issues. I didn't just decide to redesign something for the
heck of it. This, the remote steering makes a better bike or I wouldn't have done it!. A, front
wheel flop. B, front wheel lightly loaded. C, heavy understeer. D, tiller effect. The geometry on
the Stiletto eliminates A, and D and improves C&D. Some people are probably not going to like
remote steering, but there are lots of people who don't care for the chopper style bars on the Easy
Racer bikes. It's quite impossible for any person and me included to design something everybody
would like. The Stiletto has incredible low speed handling and that includes climbs of below 6 mph,
the Stiletto climbs straight, no wobbles, everyone could appreciate that. So back to the
steering...for those of you who will buy a carbon fiber fairing, that will hide the steering for
the most part, and the other thing is once you get on the bike and ride you just have no idea it's
a remote steered bike...

The weight on a medium frame Stiletto will be about 23lbs with options to make it even lighter.
Without a seat it's under 20 lbs (I have plans for a much lighter seat...soon).

Is this bike for everyone? I wish! Let me close by saying that the Stiletto will be an
incredible value as well as a beautiful all around performing bike. This bike should be an
improvement in acceleration, cornering, climbing and stopping and with the body sock
treatment...no low racer is safe.

I'm hoping to have the official specs and prices shortly, if anyone wants to e-mail me for more info
you can at freddy@calfeedesign.com

Please! What the heck is "remote steering" ?

--
Gator Bob Siegel EasyRacers Ti Rush <fredee1st@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9a5f0078.0306170718.6988fdc8@posting.google.com...
> MTa5112910@aol.com (Marci Taylor) wrote in message
news:<8a5340b2.0306161258.25851d39@posting.google.com>...
> > I've seen pics of the new carbon LWB bike called the "stiletto." I must say that I have always
> > thought is would be neet to have a carbon fiber bike that was a lwb. I like the weight recuction
> > without the extreme riding position. However, there is one thing about the stiletto that bugs
> > me. I really don't like the remote steering. In my opinion, this ruins a great bike. Is this
> > just my issue or have others thought this?? I wonder if this bike could be ordered with the more
> > traditional steering??? And, does anyone know the complete bike weight? I have the V2 formula on
> > order and it weights 26.8 which is pretty light for a LWB bike. Marci
>
> Thought I'd go ahead and respond to this one. One thing I never really cared for on my Gold Rush
> (and there isn't much)was the front end issues. I didn't just decide to redesign something for the
> heck of it. This, the remote steering makes a better bike or I wouldn't have done it!. A, front
> wheel flop. B, front wheel lightly loaded. C, heavy understeer. D, tiller effect. The geometry on
> the Stiletto eliminates A, and D and improves C&D. Some people are probably not going to like
> remote steering, but there are lots of people who don't care for the chopper style bars on the
> Easy Racer bikes. It's quite impossible for any person and me included to design something
> everybody would like. The Stiletto has incredible low speed handling and that includes climbs of
> below 6 mph, the Stiletto climbs straight, no wobbles, everyone could appreciate that. So back to
> the steering...for those of you who will buy a carbon fiber fairing, that will hide the steering
> for the most part, and the other thing is once you get on the bike and ride you just have no idea
> it's a remote steered bike...
>
> The weight on a medium frame Stiletto will be about 23lbs with options to make it even lighter.
> Without a seat it's under 20 lbs (I have plans for a much lighter seat...soon).
>
> Is this bike for everyone? I wish! Let me close by saying that the Stiletto will be an
> incredible value as well as a beautiful all around performing bike. This bike should be an
> improvement in acceleration, cornering, climbing and stopping and with the body sock
> treatment...no low racer is safe.
>
> I'm hoping to have the official specs and prices shortly, if anyone wants to e-mail me for more
> info you can at freddy@calfeedesign.com

"Robert Siegel" <bobsiegel@worldnet.att.net> wrote in news:kuGHa.9044
$0v4.791833@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

> Please! What the heck is "remote steering" ?
>

The handlebars are connected to the front fork through a mechanical linkage rather than directly.

http://www.ihpva.org/people/tstrike/usbike7.jpg shows the linkage joining the front fork to the
handlebars under the seat.

(Link lifted from http://www.ihpva.org/people/tstrike/bike2.htm)

-Bill Hamilton

Thanks! Looks very complicated, much like auto steering, tie rods etc. I assume it has to be USS?

Must be me but I cannot figure out why so much trouble just to "improve" on some perceived GRR
shortcomings? My GRR and Ti Rush seem to steer just fine. I guess I don't appreciate the value of
all the tweaking suggested by the more adventurous mechanically inclined types on this NG. ;-))

--
Gator Bob Siegel EasyRacers Ti Rush "Bill Hamilton" <seeker@nosphoenyx.net> wrote in message
news:Xns939D722069ED9seekeratphoenyxdotne@68.12.19.6...
> "Robert Siegel" <bobsiegel@worldnet.att.net> wrote in news:kuGHa.9044
> $0v4.791833@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
> > Please! What the heck is "remote steering" ?
> >
>
> The handlebars are connected to the front fork through a mechanical
linkage
> rather than directly.
>
> http://www.ihpva.org/people/tstrike/usbike7.jpg shows the linkage joining the front fork to the
> handlebars under the seat.
>
> (Link lifted from http://www.ihpva.org/people/tstrike/bike2.htm)
>
>
> -Bill Hamilton

On 17 Jun 2003 08:18:19 -0700, fredee1st@aol.com (fredee1st@aol.com) wrote:

>Thought I'd go ahead and respond to this one. One thing I never really cared for on my Gold Rush
>(and there isn't much)was the front end issues. I didn't just decide to redesign something for the
>heck of it. This, the remote steering makes a better bike or I wouldn't have done it!. A, front
>wheel flop. B, front wheel lightly loaded. C, heavy understeer. D, tiller effect. The geometry on
>the Stiletto eliminates A, and D and improves C&D. Some people are probably not going to like
>remote steering, but there are lots of people who don't care for the chopper style bars on the Easy
>Racer bikes.

Thanks for the explanations, it's always nice to hear from the designer himself.

I still don't understand why commercial remote steer bikes use conventional head angles. The few
books that discussed stability vs. head angle (Mike Burrows' book and references within, and I think
one of David Wilson's books) seemed to suggest that a vertical head angle works best, if there are
no other constraints (e.g. handlebar position). I can't think of any other constraints on a LWB
remote steer bike. Maybe you or someone here can explain?

By the way, nobody seems to have posted the URL for the photos:
http://www.cyberonic.net/~gdevault/stiletto.htm (Though I understand it's an early prototype?)

"Robert Siegel" <bobsiegel@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
news:QmHHa.10767$3o3.753616@bgtnsc05...ldnet.att.net:

> Thanks! Looks very complicated, much like auto steering, tie rods etc. I assume it has to be USS?
>
> Must be me but I cannot figure out why so much trouble just to "improve" on some perceived GRR
> shortcomings? My GRR and Ti Rush seem to steer just fine. I guess I don't appreciate the value of
> all the tweaking suggested by the more adventurous mechanically inclined types on this NG. ;-))
>

Doesn't have to be USS, and you don't have to use remote steering on USS bikes.

ASS lowracer with remote steering http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisi...emotesteer.jpg
from http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisi.../alley_cat.htm

The Vision uses direct USS http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/community/...pv/vision3.jpg

Remote steering isn't complicated, it's just not common.

-Bill Hamilton

fredee1st@aol.com (fredee1st@aol.com) wrote in message
news:<9a5f0078.0306170718.6988fdc8@posting.google.com>...
> MTa5112910@aol.com (Marci Taylor) wrote in message
> news:<8a5340b2.0306161258.25851d39@posting.google.com>...
> > I've seen pics of the new carbon LWB bike called the "stiletto." I must say that I have always
> > thought is would be neet to have a carbon fiber bike that was a lwb. I like the weight recuction
> > without the extreme riding position. However, there is one thing about the stiletto that bugs
> > me. I really don't like the remote steering. In my opinion, this ruins a great bike. Is this
> > just my issue or have others thought this?? I wonder if this bike could be ordered with the more
> > traditional steering??? And, does anyone know the complete bike weight? I have the V2 formula on
> > order and it weights 26.8 which is pretty light for a LWB bike. Marci
>
> Thought I'd go ahead and respond to this one. One thing I never really cared for on my Gold Rush
> (and there isn't much)was the front end issues. I didn't just decide to redesign something for the
> heck of it. This, the remote steering makes a better bike or I wouldn't have done it!. A, front
> wheel flop. B, front wheel lightly loaded. C, heavy understeer. D, tiller effect. The geometry on
> the Stiletto eliminates A, and D and improves C&D. Some people are probably not going to like
> remote steering, but there are lots of people who don't care for the chopper style bars on the
> Easy Racer bikes. It's quite impossible for any person and me included to design something
> everybody would like. The Stiletto has incredible low speed handling and that includes climbs of
> below 6 mph, the Stiletto climbs straight, no wobbles, everyone could appreciate that. So back to
> the steering...for those of you who will buy a carbon fiber fairing, that will hide the steering
> for the most part, and the other thing is once you get on the bike and ride you just have no idea
> it's a remote steered bike...
>
> The weight on a medium frame Stiletto will be about 23lbs with options to make it even lighter.
> Without a seat it's under 20 lbs (I have plans for a much lighter seat...soon).
>
> Is this bike for everyone? I wish! Let me close by saying that the Stiletto will be an
> incredible value as well as a beautiful all around performing bike. This bike should be an
> improvement in acceleration, cornering, climbing and stopping and with the body sock
> treatment...no low racer is safe.
>
> I'm hoping to have the official specs and prices shortly, if anyone wants to e-mail me for more
> info you can at freddy@calfeedesign.com

I guess I should have said, "I don't like the looks of the remote steering." I have never ridden a
bike with this sort of steering so I guess I should reserve judgment. I am very interested in this
bike....and I think it would be cool to order one with all the light weight options. I would love
to get one in the 21 lb. range. Is that possible? I am 5'6" tall and weigh about 148 lbs. My
X-seam is about
39.5. What is the BB to seat difference in inches? I can't locate the picture of the bike. Is the
BB a bit higher than on a GRR but lower than a v2???? I might be one of your customers. Marci

Ken Kobayashi wrote:

> I still don't understand why commercial remote steer bikes use conventional head angles.

Nor me. FWIW, Dave Richards' Kestrel - a front-drive low racer with remote ASS - has a vertical head
tube and reverse rake forks, but since he only sold one example, it barely qualifies as
"commercial". The Streetglider had a similar arrangement, and by all accounts it handled
beautifully, but few were sold. I imagine it may be becuase such a bike looks "pre-crashed" to the
untutored eye.

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================

MTa5112910@aol.com (Marci Taylor) wrote in message
news:<8a5340b2.0306172052.7fef67e2@posting.google.com>...
> fredee1st@aol.com (fredee1st@aol.com) wrote in message
> news:<9a5f0078.0306170718.6988fdc8@posting.google.com>...
> > MTa5112910@aol.com (Marci Taylor) wrote in message
> > news:<8a5340b2.0306161258.25851d39@posting.google.com>...
> > > I've seen pics of the new carbon LWB bike called the "stiletto." I must say that I have always
> > > thought is would be neet to have a carbon fiber bike that was a lwb. I like the weight
> > > recuction without the extreme riding position. However, there is one thing about the stiletto
> > > that bugs me. I really don't like the remote steering. In my opinion, this ruins a great bike.
> > > Is this just my issue or have others thought this?? I wonder if this bike could be ordered
> > > with the more traditional steering??? And, does anyone know the complete bike weight? I have
> > > the V2 formula on order and it weights 26.8 which is pretty light for a LWB bike. Marci
> >
> > Thought I'd go ahead and respond to this one. One thing I never really cared for on my Gold Rush
> > (and there isn't much)was the front end issues. I didn't just decide to redesign something for
> > the heck of it. This, the remote steering makes a better bike or I wouldn't have done it!. A,
> > front wheel flop. B, front wheel lightly loaded. C, heavy understeer. D, tiller effect. The
> > geometry on the Stiletto eliminates A, and D and improves C&D. Some people are probably not
> > going to like remote steering, but there are lots of people who don't care for the chopper style
> > bars on the Easy Racer bikes. It's quite impossible for any person and me included to design
> > something everybody would like. The Stiletto has incredible low speed handling and that includes
> > climbs of below 6 mph, the Stiletto climbs straight, no wobbles, everyone could appreciate that.
> > So back to the steering...for those of you who will buy a carbon fiber fairing, that will hide
> > the steering for the most part, and the other thing is once you get on the bike and ride you
> > just have no idea it's a remote steered bike...
> >
> > The weight on a medium frame Stiletto will be about 23lbs with options to make it even lighter.
> > Without a seat it's under 20 lbs (I have plans for a much lighter seat...soon).
> >
> > Is this bike for everyone? I wish! Let me close by saying that the Stiletto will be an
> > incredible value as well as a beautiful all around performing bike. This bike should be an
> > improvement in acceleration, cornering, climbing and stopping and with the body sock
> > treatment...no low racer is safe.
> >
> > I'm hoping to have the official specs and prices shortly, if anyone wants to e-mail me for more
> > info you can at freddy@calfeedesign.com
>
> I guess I should have said, "I don't like the looks of the remote steering." I have never ridden a
> bike with this sort of steering so I guess I should reserve judgment. I am very interested in this
> bike....and I think it would be cool to order one with all the light weight options. I would love
> to get one in the 21 lb. range. Is that possible? I am 5'6" tall and weigh about 148 lbs. My
> X-seam is about
> 39.5. What is the BB to seat difference in inches? I can't locate the picture of the bike. Is the
> BB a bit higher than on a GRR but lower than a v2???? I might be one of your customers.
> Marci

Marci:

Does this mean your brand new V2 Formula is now for sale (at a used price of course)? Well I'm
green with envy. I wish I had your bike budget. But unfortunately my wife would not find any humor
in me buying another bike anytime soon.

Brian 02 Tailwind/02 V-Rex

MTa5112910@aol.com (Marci Taylor) wrote in message
news:<8a5340b2.0306172052.7fef67e2@posting.google.com>...
> fredee1st@aol.com (fredee1st@aol.com) wrote in message
> news:<9a5f0078.0306170718.6988fdc8@posting.google.com>...
> > MTa5112910@aol.com (Marci Taylor) wrote in message

>
> I guess I should have said, "I don't like the looks of the remote steering." I have never ridden a
> bike with this sort of steering so I guess I should reserve judgment. I am very interested in this
> bike....and I think it would be cool to order one with all the light weight options. I would love
> to get one in the 21 lb. range. Is that possible? I am 5'6" tall and weigh about 148 lbs. My
> X-seam is about
> 39.5. What is the BB to seat difference in inches? I can't locate the picture of the bike. Is the
> BB a bit higher than on a GRR but lower than a v2???? I might be one of your customers.
> Marci
Marci, the seat is approximatly 8" above the seat and the BB is about 1" higher than a Gold Rush.
In your size getting a 21 lbs bike shouldn't be to hard as soon as I have a lighter seat, but right
now production weight is probably about 23 lbs depending on components. While I'm thinking about it
i should add that remote steering has been around for a very long time, done right it's no problem,
it's not complicated. We also have the ability to set the steering colume for every individual
rider for a better fit.

some people may think that the gold rush geometry is fine enough and there is no need for
improvement. If a person lives in areas of the country where roads are flat and straight, yea they
may not appreciate the improved handling of the Stiletto. However, if you are the type of rider who
rides arounds hills or you push your bike to the limits, you will like this bike alot.

Some other features the Stiletto will have is two fork options. Both carbon fiber, both cf steer
tubes. One is an aero fork with 80mmwide fork spacing. combined with the new front hubs we will be
using this makes the front wheel extra light a aero fast. The other fork is 100mm spacing for those
of you who want a traditional spacing.The Stiletto also has a passive suspension that works so well
you will all appreciate that! In fact this bike dosen't do anything bad,in fact I pound the heck out
of this bike in the heart of the Santa Cruz mountains on a daily basis.

Dare I say it? Sure why not? This is probably the best all around performing R-bike there is...it
has mult-personalities, it will go slow or incredibly fast, your choice.

One other note... I have a new web page that will have lots of information on it soon. right now
it just has some photos, but check in from time to time for informative subjects.
www.ffmcycling.com Freddy

Ken,

> I still don't understand why commercial remote steer bikes use conventional head angles.

As Dave said, you would have to explain why your fork is "wrong". Selling a recumbent already
requires hours of explaining. Bikes have been built this way, but inertia is hard to overcome.

http://poziome.republika.pl/obrazki/...4_oscaregg.jpg

http://www.karbonkinetics.com/MGT_copy_big.jpg

http://www.ihpva.org/com/Streetglider/sg1.jpg

Warren