Read about this new bicycle consortium call Premium Comfort.

One of the members of the consortium is Shimano.

http://www.premiumcomfort.com/.

They just haven't figured out is that there is a fundamental incompatibility with the traditional
upright bicycle and comfort: namely that thing that sticks up your ass. (which they call a seat, but
which I call a perverted, sado-masochistic device.)

Alpha Beta wrote:
>
> One of the members of the consortium is Shimano.
>
> http://www.premiumcomfort.com/.
>
> They just haven't figured out is that there is a fundamental incompatibility with the traditional
> upright bicycle and comfort: namely that thing that sticks up your ass. (which they call a seat,
> but which I call a perverted, sado-masochistic device.)

This looks like a European push by Shimano for an apporach they have had going in Japan for awhile.
They usually have a bike loaded with this stuff at Interbike (though I don't remember seeing it this
year). The components are part of a group called Nexave C910. They seem convinced that people are
intimidated by the gears on bikes and have gone to great lengths to make these simpler to operate by
making the system much more complex. Yet they say it would be "reilable and trouble free". I wonder
how well the front deraileur system would function after being covered by winter road grit? (It is
still partially exposed.)

After my business was done at Interbike last year, I took in the "Art of the Motorcycle" exhibit at
the (now dark) Guggenheim. It clarified for me the design tension between having the components of a
mechanical device exposed and visible as distinct elements, and having them hidden behind bodywork
as their complexity increases. Personally, I decided I preferred the traditional bicycle aesthetic
of small tubes and exposed elements, and not too many of those either. (In the recumbent world, Rans
and TE are examples of this approach.)

But bicycles are being pushed out of the traditional aesthetic from three directions. As mtb's have
more and more elaborate suspension systems, they can no longer maintain the light and simple look,
although they do still have all the elements exposed. Some people feel this gives them a technical
look and they like it. But there is really not much connection to the traditional bike look.

There is still a lot of tradition in the road racing world, thanks in part to restrictive rules,
but even there, new materials and the push for better aerodynamics are making small tubes a thing
of the past.

The third push, and probably the weakest, certainly in N. America, is the comfort bike. Noone seems
quite sure what that means. Shimano has been articulating their vision in their Nexave C910 show
bikes. KHS and especially Giant went one step futher this year with these relaxed upright bikes
that, at their top end, incorproate enclosed, complex components, probably some of them from the
Shimano group. (I did not like these bikes and didn't look to closely. I couldn't get anyone at
Giant to talk to me the time I tired anyway.)

I agree with AB that there is unlikely to be a comfort breakthough unless you get serious about
changing the basic position. (But OTOH I really don't know how much of a barrier the position and
the comfort issues are to increased sales, esp in Europe.) In any case Giant is tentatively
combining some of Shimano's ideas with a slightly modified riding position. Apparently KHS (their
basic bike was very similar to Giant's basic bike) thinks they can sell this in Japan and Europe and
hope they can sell in N. Am. Apparently they think they might be able sell a recumbent in N. Am but
not elsewhere (hello? recumbents _do_ sell in Europe).

From an aesthetic view point I find it interesting that the Vision V70 series and the Rans Fusion
bracket riding position of the KHS and Giant, but maintain a very traditional small tube, simple
look. I prefer it, and my feeling is that most N. Ams would. I think they "look like bicycles". And
I think the current state of indexed gears may not be that intimidating.

We have a lot of utility cyclists in Toronto and you can hardly get them to use a full set of
fenders, let alone go for one of these monocoque look bikes. Just yesterday I saw a lady out on a
cold and snowy day. She had no front fender and only a partial rear. She was getting road spray on
here white coat.

John Riley

John Riley <johnriley1@rogers.com> wrote in message news:<3E351426.744416B3@rogers.com>...
> Alpha Beta wrote:
> >
> > One of the members of the consortium is Shimano.
> >
> > http://www.premiumcomfort.com/.
> >
> > They just haven't figured out is that there is a fundamental incompatibility with the
> > traditional upright bicycle and comfort: namely that thing that sticks up your ass. (which they
> > call a seat, but which I call a perverted, sado-masochistic device.)
>
> This looks like a European push by Shimano for an apporach they have had going in Japan for
> awhile. They usually have a bike loaded with this stuff at Interbike (though I don't remember
> seeing it this year). The components are part of a group called Nexave C910. They seem convinced
> that people are intimidated by the gears on bikes and have gone to great lengths to make these
> simpler to operate by making the system much more complex. Yet they say it would be "reilable and
> trouble free". I wonder how well the front deraileur system would function after being covered by
> winter road grit? (It is still partially exposed.)
>
<snip>
> John Riley

Hmmm... I was chatting with the local custom upright builder Saturday (he shares shop space with the
local custom recumbent builders) about a "modernized" English Roadster, something like this:
http://www.pashley.co.uk/pashley/pro..._head_page.htm .

Here's my "dream roadster": custom lugged steel frame 700 x 50c Schwalbe Big Apple tires hydraulic
disc brakes Rohloff 14-speed hub B&M generator hub Brooks B66 saddle
(http://217.72.163.226/~brook5076/ind...=mens_trektour) carbon-fiber chaincase and fenders

Never mind that I have a zillion other projects *and* this'd cost as much as a small South Pacific
island... it's possible and I want one.

Jeff

Jeff Wills wrote:

> Hmmm... I was chatting with the local custom upright builder Saturday (he shares shop space with
> the local custom recumbent builders) about a "modernized" English Roadster, something like this:
> http://www.pashley.co.uk/pashley/pro..._head_page.htm .

Now that is a classic. Isn't it interesting how difficult it is to significantly improve on this,
what, 75 or 100 year old design? The Pashley has only some fairly modest upgrades, and yet I think
it would still do much of what one of the fancy pants Shimano dream bikes like the Giant Prodigy
would do, as far as utility cycling is concerned.

There was some concern that roadsters were signs of poverty and lacked status, (I think Mike Burrows
voiced something along these lines.) but wasn't there a trend among the hippsters in the UK to have
the rattiest roadster you could find?

It is too bad roadsters never caught on in N. Am.

John Riley

John Riley <johnriley1@rogers.com> wrote in news:3E357199.DCCCA7CE@rogers.com:

> http://www.pashley.co.uk/pashley/pro..._head_page.htm

The closest to that being the Vision "Thoroughbred", in North America
http://www.visionbikes.com/Images/Thoroughbred.pdf

rorschandt wrote:
>
> John Riley <johnriley1@rogers.com> wrote in news:3E357199.DCCCA7CE@rogers.com:
>
> > http://www.pashley.co.uk/pashley/pro..._head_page.htm
>
> The closest to that being the Vision "Thoroughbred", in North America
> http://www.visionbikes.com/Images/Thoroughbred.pdf

These folks are pretty committed to practical utility bikes in N. Am:

http://www.breezerbikes.com/

John Riley

Alpha Beta <sphynxsriddle@hotnospammail.com> wrote:
: They just haven't figured out is that there is a fundamental incompatibility with the traditional
: upright bicycle and comfort: namely that thing that sticks up your ass. (which they call a seat,
: but which I call a perverted, sado-masochistic device.)

Well, there are people who insist on getting a 1000,- couch when a 50,- bar stool would do
just fine.

PS. Check that you have correct seat/SMD angle on your upright.

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/ varis at no spam please iki fi

What is SMD? Do you mean the angle of the seat tube? <risto.varanka@secure.from.spam.helsinki.fi>
wrote in message news:b147pd$5ei$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> Alpha Beta <sphynxsriddle@hotnospammail.com> wrote:
> : They just haven't figured out is that there is a fundamental
incompatibility
> : with the traditional upright bicycle and comfort: namely that thing that sticks up your ass.
> : (which they call a seat, but which I call a
perverted,
> : sado-masochistic device.)
>
> Well, there are people who insist on getting a 1000,- couch when a 50,- bar stool would do
> just fine.
>
> PS. Check that you have correct seat/SMD angle on your upright.
>
> --
> Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/ varis at no spam please iki fi

Their logo is "Transportation for a healthy planet." How come the transportation I want to use for a
healthy planet costs so much more? (A Trice XL.)

"John Riley" <johnriley1@rogers.com> wrote in message news:3E359EC4.AFD287D0@rogers.com...
>
>
> rorschandt wrote:
> >
> > John Riley <johnriley1@rogers.com> wrote in news:3E357199.DCCCA7CE@rogers.com:
> >
> > > http://www.pashley.co.uk/pashley/pro..._head_page.htm
> >
> > The closest to that being the Vision "Thoroughbred", in North America
> > http://www.visionbikes.com/Images/Thoroughbred.pdf
>
> These folks are pretty committed to practical utility bikes in N. Am:
>
> http://www.breezerbikes.com/
>
> John Riley

Alpha Beta wrote:
>
> One of the members of the consortium is Shimano.
>
> http://www.premiumcomfort.com/.
>
> They just haven't figured out is that there is a fundamental incompatibility with the traditional
> upright bicycle and comfort: namely that thing that sticks up your ass. (which they call a seat,
> but which I call a perverted, sado-masochistic device.)

Upright bicycles have saddles. Recumbent bicycles have proper seats.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side) RANS "Wavewind" and Rocket, Earth Cycles Sunset and
Dragonflyer

Check out the "Light Roadster" here:

http://www.antbikemike.com/lr.html

John Riley

Jeff Wills wrote:
>
> John Riley <johnriley1@rogers.com> wrote in message news:<3E351426.744416B3@rogers.com>...
> > Alpha Beta wrote:
> > >
> > > One of the members of the consortium is Shimano.
> > >
> > > http://www.premiumcomfort.com/.
> > >
> > > They just haven't figured out is that there is a fundamental incompatibility with the
> > > traditional upright bicycle and comfort: namely that thing that sticks up your ass. (which
> > > they call a seat, but which I call a perverted, sado-masochistic device.)
> >
> > This looks like a European push by Shimano for an apporach they have had going in Japan for
> > awhile. They usually have a bike loaded with this stuff at Interbike (though I don't remember
> > seeing it this year). The components are part of a group called Nexave C910. They seem convinced
> > that people are intimidated by the gears on bikes and have gone to great lengths to make these
> > simpler to operate by making the system much more complex. Yet they say it would be "reilable
> > and trouble free". I wonder how well the front deraileur system would function after being
> > covered by winter road grit? (It is still partially exposed.)
> >
> <snip>
> > John Riley
>
> Hmmm... I was chatting with the local custom upright builder Saturday (he shares shop space with
> the local custom recumbent builders) about a "modernized" English Roadster, something like this:
> http://www.pashley.co.uk/pashley/pro..._head_page.htm .
>
> Here's my "dream roadster": custom lugged steel frame 700 x 50c Schwalbe Big Apple tires hydraulic
> disc brakes Rohloff 14-speed hub B&M generator hub Brooks B66 saddle
> (http://217.72.163.226/~brook5076/ind...=mens_trektour) carbon-fiber chaincase and fenders
>
> Never mind that I have a zillion other projects *and* this'd cost as much as a small South Pacific
> island... it's possible and I want one.
>
> Jeff