frame material, steel vs aluminum - Page 2

I've never lived particularly close to any bike shop (at least, not the one I wanted to shop at) ... or, at least that's the way it seemed/seems since distance is a relative thing with age and/or modes of travel.

So, unless you are planning on going to the shop every other week AND it isn't within 15 miles (a very arbitrary distance ... make that distance a half-hour's drive) & not close to anything else that you might have a reason to go to OR it isn't on your way to-from-work/wherever, I really wouldn't worry about the smaller shop being further away.

Presuming the geometry of the various frames is similar, then if the components are the same, the cosmetic issues do come into play AND are a valid basis by which many people buy their bikes ... because it often helps if you like the way your bike looks as much as how it rides.

When Lance Armstrong was winning consecutive Tour de France titles, TREK became a much more popular brand ... is it worth the probably-$200 premium over the FUJI or JAMIS? You decide?

It's okay to let your sense of aesthetics & budget be your guide ...

BUT, I now feel compelled to dissuading you from the SPECIALIZED TriCross because it uses an integrated headset (VERY COMMON, now, with non-steel frames at all price levels) ... there STILL isn't a standard, As far as I know. This can be a potential servicing problem with even a "popular" size at some point in the future if manufacturers ever gravitate to one size as a standard and abandon the others. Probably NOT a factor in the next half-dozen years, but ...

BTW. At this point in time, I would say "NO" to any SURLY ... nothing wrong with SURLY, per se, but then YOU would have to spec the components & the final price could easily be close to 2x the price of the FUJI, JAMIS, or TREK bikes you are looking at because you would probably end up with 105-or-better components. WHERE you are in New Jersey can dictate which components you want ... if you are in the hilly part, then you really want Campagnolo shifters, IMO (Campagnolo shifters can be used with Shimano derailleurs/cassettes, but not vice-versa) ... if you are in the flatter part, anything will do.

ALSO, SURLY frames seem heavy ... you would be paying almost a boutique price for a frame that is pretty much what used to be a frame on a mid-range bike ... I love mid-range bikes, but why pay the premium for the SURLY decal on the frame?

If your inclination reverts to an aluminum frame, then depending on the type of riding you think you will be doing, you may actually want to consider a 29er with a solid front fork ... it will be probably be heavier than a touring bike (because of the larger wheels), but potentially more versatile than any other frame -- you can use ANY size 700c tire ... from 700x19 up to 700x58 (okay, the smaller tires require a different rim/wheel than the larger tires & may look a bit odd, but who cares?). If you decide you want a front suspension fork for the frame, it probably won't cost you any more to have it installed LATER than the price differential you would have paid in the beginning.

The key difference between a 29er (besides the wider stays) and a CX frame is the more MTB-like top tube -- the top tube is more sloped AND longer because the presumption is that you are using flat bars. The 29er will be more robust than a CX frame since it is actually intended to be used on trails.

Depending on your perspective, a 29er could be thought of as either a glorified HYBRID or a grown-up MTB.

GARY FISHER (currently, a subsidiary of TREK) makes most of the 29ers, so your TREK dealer may carry them, also.

um, sorry for mt ignorance but...

what is a headset?
what does it do, and where is it on the bike?
is that the only reason to avoid the tricross comp?

The headset connects the fork to the frame ... it is comprised of two "rings" of loose bearings OR two "rings" of bearings in a cages OR two cartridge bearings OR similar configuration.

BTW/FYI. If this thread goes on long enough, you will not only have a better idea about which bike to buy, but ...

Here's some buying information which you can really use regardless of the bike you decide on -- ALL 2007 bikes will be ~20% less than retail after June 30th if they haven't already been discounted ... last year's unsold bikes are cheaper than current bikes ... as yet unsold bikes from 2005-or-before will be even less expensive!

Now, between the SPECIALIZED Tricross Sport & Tricross Comp, because the frames are apparently the same, and as good as the 105 Shimano 10-speed components are (and, they are VERY GOOD) on the Tricross Comp, I would personally get the Tricross Sport and then install a Campagnolo Veloce drivetrain & conversion cassette (e.g., Wheels Manufacturing OR American Classic) for the price difference ... sell the Tiagra shifters/cassette/etc., and subsequently/probably have some "spare change" left over.

Actually, I'd just switch shifters (new 10 speed Veloce shifters are generally about $100US on eBay ... while "new" Tiagra shifters sell for more than that on eBay ... the Veloce shifters are actually superior, but lack any of the Lance-Effect premium) & use the hubbub.com alternate derailleur cable connection & keep the drivetrain on the Sport as a 9-speed. At some point, if inclined, I would change the other components.

How & where do you intend to ride the bike? I guess that should be a critical consideration, if not the most critical followed by any budget considerations.

biking for me will be mostly paved roads and perhaps a few dirt roads
maybe even some rails-to-trails or other non-paved rides
thus my desire for a cx/s wider tire, or a touring's wider tire
still can't get away from the spec tricross sport/comp option
worried about weight of steel, bending rear triangle elements
(mentioned by someone else about a surly they owned)
worried about bike shop issues
do not want to make a mistake
don't want to be fooled IF the spec zertz carbon inserts are really just gimick
so what do i do
what do i do
ugh

Are you sure about that? Their website says the two are made from different aluminium alloys, and the Comp gets carbon seat stays and different wheels. I've no idea if there is really much difference in the types of aluminium though. If you just meant the geometry, then yeah, they match.

You are right!

Not only did Specialized change the frame specs (Sorry, my bad), but they bumped the price up by $200 (the COMP used to be ~$1600US, I think) ... that really makes the SPORT model almost a bargain @ $1100 ... ~$900-or-less in a month's time (i.e., end of June).

The sad fact about aluminum frames is that "studies" have shown that the less exotic aluminum frames apparently last longer ... undoubtedly, because they are beefier and the frames are not engineered to the Nth degree of optimization.

A similar observation, BTW, can be made for steel frames ... the "common" (but, heavier) variants, whether they are seamed, "gas pipe" frames or less exotic alloys, are all-but-indestructible.

I reckon the difference in weight between the heaviest (and, I mean HEAVIEST) steel frame & a not-so-exotic aluminum frame is not going to be more than 3 lbs. It's hard to find a bare steel frame that weighs more than 6 lbs, and doubtful that you'll find many aluminum frames that weigh less than 3 lbs. (though, there are definitely EXOTIC frames out there that weigh less). Figure a mid-range steel frame (not counting the fork) will weigh about 5 lbs, give-or-take depending on the size.

I love the fact that steel is malleable ... I don't know what the issue was with the particular SURLY ... that wouldn't be (isn't) my complaint against their frames.

BTW. I now only have road frames with either 130mm spacing or 120mm spacing ... the latter are vintage frames made with so-called "gas pipe" AND almost impossible to re-space. The CroMo frames which had 126mm spacing were easy-enough to "tweak" to 130mm spacing because steel is malleable (the 126mm rear triangles were re-spaced for continuity to allow any wheelset that I have to theoretically be useable on any frame ... except for the ones with 120mm spacing, that is).

The strongest frames are usually the less expensive ones ... the only thing is that the components that those frames are outfitted with are not as nice (but, they can be changed). The components can be changed on ANY bike regardless of initial cost ...

So, amongst all the bikes you've indicated, I'd still go with the FUJI Touring bike ... the price of that bike should be reduced in another month UNLESS the guy has to order it for you. Reduced prices with the end of a given selling season, BTW, only apply to in-stock inventory (is that stating the obvious?).

FWIW. The ONLY options (if durability is solely what you are looking for) that would probably be better (not counting the JAMIS, or equivalent steel framed bike) would be to take something like a late-70s RALEIGH GRAND PRIX (or, RALEIGH RECORD) and update ALL of the components ... OR, most late-70s to early-80s CroMo steel ROAD frames (other than most Italian frames which are designed for "racing" ... the rest were generally capable of "large" 700c wheels + fenders) and update the components ... OR, a custom frame (like a BRUCE GORDON).

what is "spacing"

can i see the new '08 bikes now onlpine and can they be ordered
i am traveling the 1st week of july and really want to take the bike with me
i will be in northewestern frederick county, maryland, for 2 weeks in july and again in august and there is great biking there, nice roads and covered bridges...
i may miss out on the '08s but unless there are big changes in components or paint/aesthetics, no big deal... i will likely have to order my bike regardless, so not likely to save $$$ on an '07 model anyway

A bike's rear spacing is the distance between the "dropouts" in which the rear wheel is fitted.

On MTBs & hybrids, the spacing is USUALLY (but, not always with hybrids) 135mm. I presume that so-called "comfort" bikes have 135mm spacing, too.

On ROAD & CX bikes, the (current) spacing is usually 130mm ... there may be some cyclocross(-type) bikes whose rear spacing is 135mm ... of course, OLDER bikes may have narrower spacing. The spacing on ROAD bikes has changed over time as the rear hub has become wider to accommodate MORE gears on the rear cluster.

I reckon that the odds of being able to actually see a 2008 bike are slim ... new "stuff" was previewed at recent trade shows (you have to look at recent copies of periodicals like BICYLING or VELONEWS, or check their respective websites) ...

The difference between a 2007 & 2008 bikes will mostly relate to the components. So, the 2007 Specialized Tricross COMP has a 10-speed group, whereas the previous (say, 2005) had a 9-speed group. More road bikes will probably be available with the SRAM components in the future to satisfy a consumer "demand" (i.e., having something different).

On some MTBs, you can sometimes see prototypes of rear suspension tweaking or forks in bikes used during competitions.

As far as I know, there isn't anything "new" (at least, in the mid-range) on the horizon for 2008 as far as components ... a lot of changes to components were made in the past couple of years ... but, Shimano MAY (or, may not) let their DA rear hub design trickle down to the other road groups in the next couple of years, or not!

So, the biggest difference (if any) will probably be the paint & decals the manufacturer chooses for a given model if it is carried over from this year to 2008. If there are significant changes, you can probably anticipate a higher price tag!

Next year's models usually aren't available until the September-October time frame.

FWIW. Here are some threads you may want to look at (no particular order ... just "googled" to find these):

http://www.cyclingforums.com/archive.../t-281874.html

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-286404-15-2.html

http://www.roadcycling.net/t375040.html

I'm sure you can find other/more info on the respective bikes.

Hi there, I have 2 steel roadies, 1 Carbon, and 1 aluminum tourer, and 1 Aluminum roadie frame (unbuilt at this time).

If you intend to use the bike to ride some trails, the tourer frame may give you some problems in that the bottom bracket is lower to the ground, compared to a CX one. So you might find that there may not be enough clearance at times, ie your pedals might scrape the ground in certain conditions.

During my search for a touring bike, I was very close to getting the Surly Cross check, but decided against it, as it has a shorter chainstay which gives me less heel clearance and could lead to my heel hitting against my pannier bags when I ride loaded.

This is just my roundabout way of saying you should identify your needs clearly, and then find the product to match it.

If you are worried about how "heavy" steel is compared to other materials, have a think about the actual weight difference. Could you feel 500-800g in frame weight difference? This is like carrying two loaded water bottles.

You could probably worry and think about a lot more factors, and end up not getting anything because there is no one do-it-all perfectly frame out there.

so guys, my riding will be roads, perhaps a few trails
(well groomed trails near civilization)
a rails-to-trailsm if i get brave enough
a dirt road now and then
so
touring or cx
if touring i will order fuji or jamis (i like the colors, similar on both)
if fujo or jamis, which one and why
if cx i will get specialized
sport or comp
make a suggestion based on materials and components
not basxed on price
i can afford a few more $$$ up front if it gets me a better ride long term...
many thanks
y'all are very kind

If you are not going touring, why are you considering touring specific bikes? Sorry if you have answered this before, I could have missed an earlier post.

i am considering touring bikes only because there are so many steel frames
and many folks suggest steel
especially for a guy 235 pounds like me
on diet and lost 23 already
goal is 185-190
will do roads, dirt roads, a few paths and trails
thought of getting cx
tricross sport or more likely comp
not sure what to do
need to get something already
my son wants me to ride with him
he is 14 and impatient
so what would you buy if i gave you 2k with this plan for the riding

Dont really know what the prices are like in US, but I did check out the Sepcialized Tricross and its a beauty. I think Aluminum frames are just as reliable as steel ones (some scientists here can flame me if they want, I have no scientific backing for this statement, just pure hearsay). If it were my $2K, I would get the specialized (I am a sucker for marketing). If you really want steel, the Surly cross check is not a bad buy either, I think they sell a fully built up model as well. Alternatively try and get a quote from a shop to build up a Cross Check. The advantages of building a bike up from a frame, you can pretty much custom fit everything to your wants ( not necessarily needs).

I am a heavyweight as well, hovering around the clydesdale mark at the moment. Since you sound like you are concerned about your weight being an issue for the bike, one of the areas which you must spend good money on is the wheelset, make sure you get a good strong wheelset that will withstand your riding. I am not going to get into what I think makes a strong wheelset, but there are many many posts on this.

The Shimano 105 groupset is a proven workhorse, even at Tiagra level, most people dont have problems. The general advise is to come in at the 105 level.

Good luck with your bike choice, and hope that you start cycling soon!

BTW ... I dont know how to advice you on your son.

The problem with buying a touring bike just to get the steel frame is that not only are steel frames typically heavier than the other ones out there, but touring bikes are heavier than normal recreational road bikes of the same quality. The touring bikes have longer wheelbases and are overbuilt to handle the extra weight of gear.

I have had steel, aluminum, and carbon, and frankly, there is very little difference in the ride of any of them that can't be offset with saddle and tires.

My advice is to go for lighter weight, meaning carbon or aluminum, and forego the steel, especially if you have to go into a touring bike to get steel. As between carbon and aluminum, most carbon frames seem slightly more resilient than most aluminum frames, but you can make either one work very well.