chorus or dura-ace/ultegra? - Page 2

Oh, there goes the "tough to tune" Campy song. Sorry, but Campy stays in tune as well as Dura-Ace. Shimano hasn't done anything special there. What's used in the pro peloton is a function of sponsorship and money. Full stop. Shimano, is several times larger and has several times the resources of Campy. You have to also account, if you want to use the pro example, for SRAM and Campy in the peloton. Doing that shows that Shimano isn't really dominating the pro ranks. Shimano is feeling a lot of pressure from SRAM as SRAM has really extended themselves when it comes to sponsorship and providing gruppos to teams.

__________________
Sex is horrid
Pain is Fun
I cut my fingers off
One by one

This has nothink to do with ethic there. If shimano makes shifters that does't nedd to be serviced- why they should make them rebuildable? Because Campa do??

Oh, so the ethic that is important to a lot of people isn't really important to those people? Wow.

While we're here, can you name a product that had a zero percent failure rate? Eh? Peter's seen some Shimano failures. What do you think his experience is versus yours, eh?

If the ethic isn't important to you, fine. To others it is. Deal with it. Accept. Learn that other folks value things differently than you. To make it even simpler for you to connect the dots, here: I'm one of many who've used both Campy and Shimano. I've used Record, Dura Ace, Ultegra, RSX, and before all that, Shimano 600 (Ultegra's predecessor). Now what is your Campy and Shimano experience? Nada? Come on: from whence does this wealth of knowledge of yours come from?

See, it's tits like you that perpetuate this stupid Gruppo A vs. Gruppo B argument, when the reality is the difference between the two is a function of personal preference and values. Full stop. Even the lowest gruppos....Mirage, Sora, Rival....get the job done well.

Now, please: bless us with your vast cycling experience so that we can all make the proper choice as determine by your infallible vision.

__________________
Sex is horrid
Pain is Fun
I cut my fingers off
One by one

Well, if i am not as old as you are and have't had same super druper expirience with cycling bits, then i can't make any coments on your mystical conclusions about some weird ethic? I just don't see how rebuildable stuff that needs to be serviced (obviously, oterwise why make it rebuildable) is somehow more ethical compared to non rebuildable stuff that does't brakes.
And you failed to explain that, despite your magnificent expirience with cycling equipment.
Let me ask you- is it ethical to buy all those new and shiny toys when you still can repair and use old ones ( "I've used Record, Dura Ace, Ultegra, RSX, and before all that, Shimano 600 (Ultegra's predecessor)")?

You missed the points, as well as your Basic English class: who says that Shimano stuff doesn't break? How did you figure that. That could only be true if you could show that S=kLn(ω)=0, which is impossible to do since k doesn't equal zero and the natural log of something can never equal zero. Physics,1; Catlike,0.

Do searches at Weight Weenies, Roadbike Review, here, and other forums, and you'll find that it's been asked many times by Shimano users, "How can I rebuild my shifters?" Ask Peter, who's likely been in the bike biz longer than you've been able to say "bike", how many/how often he's seen Shimano shifters break and/or how many he's had to return to Shimano as warranty claims.

As for the groups I've used, Catlike, one was given to my wife, and the others have been sold. None have been pitched in the garbage, so your attempt to juxtapose my statement about ethic with the implication that I've sent to the garbage pail a number of groups.....well, that effort is a big fail, since I've explained that those groups were either given away or sold.

It seems you're unable to make a cogent argument. That's painfully obvious if you keeping trying to start with the Shimano-doesn't-break non-starter. FYI, Shimano brakes do brake, as that is their designed function.

What is it that makes you think Shimano doesn't break? We haven't even addressed specifically how things might break. If we did, then you'd have to explain how their products could have a failure rate of zero from non-accident causes, given the Second Law of Thermodynamics as stated above. Then you'd have to explain how it is that Shimano stuff doesn't break in crashes, be those crashes race related, technique related, or car related. Maybe Shimano stuff is made from Adamantium........

Once the idea that all stuff can fail penetrates your dense cranium, you'll be forced to realize that the only real differences between groups from different manufacturers are ergonomic, materials, and method of function.
They all can operate for the life of a rider without drama, and likewise they all can fail. Given that, the differences for a rider then are ergonomic and those related to personal preference.

Now you're welcome to try and prove that choosing something that is rebuildable over something that isn't just because you don't agree with the non-rebuildable ethic is not a personal preference, but that's impossible. You'll only end up looking like an idiot in the process.

That you can't construct a valid argument really isn't a matter of age difference between us. I don't know how old you are and don't care, and you don't know how old I am.....so good luck using that argument again.

__________________
Sex is horrid
Pain is Fun
I cut my fingers off
One by one

couldn't agree more. It was you who mentioned some mystical argument of ethics, whatever you mean by it.

arn't you born on 17.12.1964?

Relax men. Everyone on this forum knows how erudite you are. There is no need to proove it every month.
What exactly you don't like in my English? it does look like you understand what i write exactly how i mean.

Not exactly. They are specifically designed to be non serviceable. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice to fix rather than warranty or throw away these $300+ items.

BUT what has been mentioned about ERGOnomics is the key. If ya like the feel of a lever, use it. If you don't care, I recommend Campagnolo for function..the only multi shift lever(rear) in the group with true front der trim. PLUS ya can fix it.

I guess it would be nice to have them servicable once they break, but once they are't and most of people say it isn't big deal i don't cry for it.
Is there some reliable statistics about how much shimano STI levers break? Lets 0-10 year old ones in % of sold?
I would buy the equipment based on feel and ergonomics, price, service parts avilability. Not on some questionable ethics. If campa cares about their consumers so much why can't they make affordable chain tool, or mid range hubs? Woudn't it be ethical?

It always makes me chuckle that people get so tied up in "tradition" when it comes to a bit of machined metal/plastic/carbon for bike parts... and then believe that it's going to make them significantly faster up the next hill.

FWIW. As far as Shimano's reliability, it has apparently improved greatly since the 8-speed generation; but, others have observed that the Shimano shifters are apparently at their optimum when they are new -- I have read other people say that Shimano wears out (or worse, breaks down!) while Campagnolo simply breaks in.

Specifically, I know someone who was selling his old, barely ridden (less than 1000 miles, by my reckoning) bike because he had two "newer" bikes which he rode ...

The bike had an almost pristine pair of 8-speed 105 shifters ...

Less than 20 minutes into a test ride by someone else we both know, and the ham fisted "friend" manage to f*ck up the shifter so that it was no longer useable ... it became an expensive paperweight.

After the mishap, someone else mentioned how another person's 8-speed DA shifter had jammed a few years earlier, but somehow they were able to remedy it with a butter knife!?! I don't know how many miles that shifter had been used.

Regardless, mileage/use isn't a predictor of when a Shimano shifter will fail; and obviously, there are warranty replacements.

Who said anything about any given gruppo making someone faster? As far as I can tell, no one's made that claim.

__________________
Sex is horrid
Pain is Fun
I cut my fingers off
One by one

I'm not going to say use this or use that because the equipment that you use should be the equipment that you are most comfortable with. That said, I prefer the way my Shimano 105 brifters on my daily ride feel. They are the old 9-speed circa 2003 brifters, they have over 18,000 miles on them, and they still shift as precisely and cleanly as the first day I had the bike. Now I don't race or abuse my equipment so it tends to last longer I guess.

Chas0039 mentioned something about tradition. In my own tradition, I started riding with Huret, Simplex, and Regina mixes of components. They aren't around anymore except occasionally on eBay. Then I went to Shimano, then to Suntour, and back to Shimano. The few times that I have ridden borrowed Campy equipped bikes, the shifting just did not feel right to me. Maybe it is just a matter of getting used to it, but it feels right with my Shimano so that is what I ride. SRAM feels a lot closer to Shimano for me, but I am going to stick with what I like right now. I suggest that every one else ride whatever they like.

__________________
One life, one chance. Don't waste it!

While a given group may not make a person faster when going uphill, I think that if someone isn't using a straight block cassette, some riders may find that a Shimano shifter may balk when downshifting when under load ...

And, while experienced riders may know that the way to work around Shimano's design deficiency is to accelerate, un-load the drivetrain, shift, and then pedal, that kluge is something that one does not need to do with Campagnolo shifters.

I think the only people who have not seen-or-heard someone's Shimano drivetrain balk when downshifting on a climb are people riding with fairly experienced riders OR they haven't passed someone who doesn't know how to compensate for the problem.

FWIW. Campagnolo isn't perfect; but, I think that if the Campy equipped bike you tried didn't feel right, then it wasn't set up properly ... for you, at least.

Either the levers needed to be mounted in a different place on the bars and/or a Campy equipped bike with which you would be comfortable might need different handlebars or the stem length was wrong -- THAT is true for ensuring that Shimano & SRAM levers are comfortable for the rider, too. I've definitely seen some bikes set up in ways where I know I would need to re-orient (or, change) the bars & levers for me to ride the bike, comfortably, but obviously it must (hopefully) work for those riders ... those riders would presumably think that the way 'I' choose to mount the levers & bars wouldn't work for them.

THAT's not to say that a personal preference doesn't come into play when choosing one shifter over another ... and, if I were a Flatlander, I don't know if I ever would have tried Campy shifters in favor of the 8-and-9-speed Shimano shifters that I had.

I have "rebuilt" several sets of my Campagnolo shifters ... and, I have a couple of more that I think I want to fiddle with (one definitely needs new G-springs).

Re-assembly is a little tricky the first (few!?!) times ... but, it is only difficult because of ignorance as to the easy way to put the main spring back in place. So, not only can it be done, it is often done by many people.

Some people prefer to have a shop do the work, but there aren't that many shops that are capable of doing the work in most cities; so, it is something that one may as well learn to do.

As far as parts, some are very expensive ...

Replacing the G-springs is often enough to renew a Campagnolo shifter. If a shop is being paid the labor to do the work, some of the other springs may be replaced at the same time.

Although the G-springs are not expensive ... one of these times, I'm going to try to tweak a pair of G-springs rather than replace them with new ones just to see if it can be done because a G-spring is just a STIFF piece of bent wire!

BTW. Sometimes it would be (is) cheaper to cannibalize another shifter if more than the G-springs are going to be replaced. Most of the parts on the less expensive pre-2007 shifters are interchangeable with the parts on a Record/Chorus shifter [the exception is the handle which has a cartridge BB on the Record/Chorus shifters vs. a bushing on the less expensive shifters ... the central shafts vary by a small amount & I guess the smaller diameter shaft can be used in a Record/Chorus handle, but why would one need to?] which means that a Veloce/(etc.) shifter is basically just a heavier Record shifter.

I know the Record & Chorus shifters are smooth & efficient, but so is a Veloce shifter; and, I think other than weight & cosmetics, the only practical difference one may find in Campagnolo's Ergo shifters may be the break-in period ... none for a pre-2009 Record or Chorus shifter, and probably a few hundred miles for a Campagnolo shifter which has bushings (e.g,. Veloce).

The lack of a Lance-Effect on Campagnolo shifters means that the non-Record-or-Chorus shifters seem to cost half the price of a Shimano or Sram shifter.

Although most of the rest of Campagnolo's "stuff" is expensive, the 10-speed Campagnolo shifters can be used with a multitude of Shimano & SRAM drivetrain combinations ... why pay more?