electronic Dura Ace Di2 - Page 3

Comments by the last two posters are spot on. It's mistake to assume the people raising questions about Di2 are anti-progess or against new tech. That's not the case at all. The question is and has been what is it, exactly, that makes Di2 better and is it worth the price of entry? Shifting is already effortless, and I don't see how shifting of few milliseconds faster is benefit worth the cost. No one has questioned if it works as designed. No doubt, it does.

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I think a recent test by Cyclingnews had a part that summed it up pretty well(altho sometimes they seem to love anything new). The shifting performance is more consistent over time. That is,unlike a cable actuated system, where inner wires and housing degrade and effects shifting, the electronic does not(as log as the battery has a charge).

It is no faster, no more accurate and has some limitations, like sweeping up the cogset to a lower gear(cannot) like all the other mechanical shifters or dumping all the way down to the highest gear(like Campagnolo). So, in this regard, it is slower(push, push, push to get any multiple gear up or down). PLUS teeny buttons, wear gloves in the cooler months and you are going to shift the wrong way.

I rode a Scott with it, yep it works, front der action was very good(altho no better than 7900. The stiff, STIFF big ring is the biggest reason for this). I even got used to the 'whir, whir of the FD as it trimmed around. Is it 'worth' it. Personal choice but it won't be on any of my bicycles any time.

If friction shifting was level 1 and down tube index shifting level 2, STI, Ergo, Double tap cable shifting level 3 then Electronic shifting level 4. Along the way each step making small improvements to the way we ride because of the control we have over shifting and braking.

Di2 allows for faster,easier more accurate shifting in almost all scenarios "except the campy full cassette dump" because of this I find myself making more shifts spending more of my ride in the optimal gear. I understand some of us are saying we achieve this with cable actuated systems but these systems are not up to the speed, ease and accuracy of the Di2. It's marginal no doubt but notable because it defies what was the standard.

eg. in a race, on a climb, pressure is on, as you crest the climb someone attacks and you are gapped. You start to chase in the small blade and make a seamless shift to the big ring. Di2 makes this shift faster and you close the gap easier. Marginal I know but we all know making the cut or getting gapped is a thin line at times.

eg. 5 hour group ride in rolling hills with a feisty group. Di2 has you making more shifts and spending more time in the optimal gear. If you think you already do this with cable actuated group try suspending disbelief for a brief moment and imagine you are making more shifts because it's easier, faster and more accurate. Over the 5 hours you save your legs just 3 or 4 times more than you would have and at the end on the final climb you have just a little more left in the tank to make the cut.

The difference between level 3 and level 4 is small but it's there. With price and technical shortcommings that will be remedied over time aside, electronic shifting is better not a revolution or a new way of riding it's just better.

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Interesting; thanks for your thoughts. This agrees with the review that I have seen here. In fairness, they were reviewing a pre-production version, but most of their observations are probably still true for the Di2 that's being sold now. Based on these comments, and now yours, I would say that, on balance, Di2 does not really buy you any worthwhile advantages. To me it looks like, even if there was no price premium for Di2, I might still opt for the mechanical group (noting that, for example, the jury on the longevity of the electric actuators is still out; nobody has yet put tens of thousands of miles on such a group). Then add in the fact that this will add more than a grand to the price of a group, I think my position is "thanks, but no thanks", for now anyway. Who knows, maybe when Campy unveils its own take at electronic shifting (which, naturally, will result in a much better product than Shimano's ), I'll rethink this.

There's a number of inaccuracies here. First and foremost, STI-like shifting was indeed a big benefit over downtube shifters in a whole number of respects. The step of going from mechanical to electronic is nothing like that; far from it.

Well, as a matter of fact, the reviews we have just discussed do not support your claims about shifting speed at all, even for single shifts.

In addition, I don't know about you, but when I find myself in a sub-optimal gear, I shift. This implied idea of higher "shifting effort" for a mechanical group is simply ludicrous, in my opinion. Get yourself a single-speed if that is too much of an effort for you...

Finally, on accuracy, all I can say is that my mechanical group shifts perfectly accurate. Which is what you would expect when you read adverstising blurbs for the newest groups during the last ten years, with every group being touted as shifting even more precise than the previous one. Seriously, how much more precise do you think you can get?

I doubt you'll go to the big ring any faster with Di2 than I can slap the chain up with my Campy SR derailleur, because that's instantaneous for all intents and purposes. In any case, even if there was a difference, it would necessarily have to be so small as to be meaningless. Oh, and it looks like you have a significantly better chance of mis-shifting (due to user error, to be sure) with Di2 than with a mechanical group, precisely when "the heat is on". It seems too easy to hit the wrong button. Not good at all.

Like I said above, I think that is complete nonsense. Let me put this in very succinct terms: If you make any less shifts with your mechanical group than with a Di2 (because it's "easier"; we have already established that it's not any faster or more accurate), then you don't know how to ride a modern road bike. I recommend the SS: no shifting effort at all.

Well, now, look here! What in the world could you be talking about? "Technical shortcomings" in Di2?!

Thats a good point about the electronics...how long will it last and what will the pricetag be on a replacement part or repairing it. Most electronic devices are really not designed to last more than 5 or so years (btw that is not my opinion...that is coming from an electrical engineer with 30+ years experience). Theres a reason your cell phone company lets you get a new phone every few years for cheap. I have close to 8000 miles on my mechanical dura ace and it costs me maybe $20 a year for new cables.

Also, how durable is it in a crash. Anyone thats gonna spend 3g on a grouppo probably races, and has either crashed hard or will crash hard. Again, back to the cell phone example...next time youre in the car doin 30mph, drop your phone out the window and tell me how it works for you. I feel like having something that expensive on my bike would hold me back in fear of ruining it rather than pushing me harder

i think its (electronic) great potential would be in the operation or handling but not on the shifting itself, that is a mechanical matter and it will stay that way

My last post because some are really impressed by this system but you say,

"it's just better." and

"Di2 allows for faster,easier more accurate shifting in almost all scenarios"

'Better' is a pretty big word. I think my friction downtube shifters are better than indexed ones because my rear derailleur is always adjusted.

Di2 not faster, not more accurate. The chain gets there on either a mechanical or electronic system. If you are coming around a corner with that same feisty group and come to the base of a HUGE hill you didn't know about, that guy with 7800, Campagnolo or Sram is going to get to a lower gear before you on Di2.

Ya push the button, the chain waits until it finds the shift 'window', it shifts, mechanical or electronic. It's accuracy lasts longer over time but like electronic paddle shifters on your Subaru WRX, this system may not be 'worth it' to the average guy who pedals around on Sunday or takes his Subaru to Safeway to buy eggs.

But if it blows yer skirt up, go buy it and use it...good for you.

that would be an easy fix for Shimano i guess, just adding an extra "boost" switch to jump up/down through the sprockets

After having a chance to ride a Di2 bike this past weekend, Dietmar, Feltski, and Peter are pretty much right on the mark. The bike is my cousin's custom Crumpton SL Road which fits me pretty well ( a couple of mm less reach). I used it on a 30 mile ride and it was fun using a different group than what I was used to, but I didn't ride any faster than I normally do, I didn't shift more than what is required for the terrain, and the shifts were not any more precise than what I am used to. In fact, there seems to be a very slight hesitation in the shifts. Not so much that it is really noticable unless you ride it right after riding a sweet shifting ride equipped with a Campy Super Record drivetrain. All in all, I don't think that the Di2 offers anything that cannot be found with a less expensive cable shift drivetrain that is tuned right. The only advantage that I can find with it is in bling value, which, unlike my cousin, is not an issue for me.

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Double tap is a step backwards, i've used it and don't agree it is on the same level as STI/ergo

Electronic shifting is to STI, Ergo and SRAM as Index shifting is to friction shifting.

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If Di2 was the same price as the regular DA group, which would you buy?

Super Record

Well, if I couldn't buy Campy, I'd buy the Dura Ace.

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Regular DA. Have no doubt that Di2 works, but I don't want to rely on a rechargeable battery to shift my gears. Just another thing to manage and worry about on events or week-long tours, and then pay for an expensive replacement in a few years when it no longer holds a full charge. Also, not sold on the reliability of any electronic system in the real world. Everything on a bike takes a pretty good beating from vibration and moisture. I'm confident it's been tested, but what about after a few years of exposure?