Pinarello Dogma Or Colnago C50? - Page 2

Rudy: Isn't the Litespeed warranty like most everyone else's...ie, it excludes "normal wear and tear", ie, fatigue failures? If Colnago covers fatigue failures for four years, that's a lot better than most warranties today.

Dan

hhmmm I'm not sure...but still aren't we talking about Titanium vs. carbon fibre? what is normal wear and tear on a Ti frame? It is still a much more durable frame than a carbon fibre.

Don't get me wrong, I'm building a Kestrel Talon right now. It's just that for $8000 on a bike, I would want it less susceptible to impact failures like a cb frame would be...etc...

I was just thinking if I have a few K to drop, would I get a Colnago or a top of the line Ti frame like the Litespeed Ultimate. A little ding on a Carbon frame would be disastrous though.

Speaking of legendary fit from Colnago. I believe you can get a customed frame of your tube size from Litespeed for an extra $500.

Fatigue failure in a four year period is not much I don't think. I really would like to now how good of a ride is a C-50 Colnago.

Well, as for Ti versus Carbon here, both materials offer high strength to weight and are ideal for frames. The Carbon has a much higher strength to weight ratio and is less likely to get dinged. In other words the rock that would ding Ti would most likely would only leave a scratch on Carbon. The obvious advantage to Ti is that if both frames are damaged in the same way the Ti frame is less likely to fail instantly. However it takes a lot more to damage the carbon than the Ti. Also the Weave used in top end frame carbon is high density with cross layers which makes it extremely strong in all directions. I like both materials and would own either. You have to know what properties to look for in each.

As for the Dogma Ego, at 16K that is absolutely rediculous. Being an ME there is only one material that I would pay half that much for if it was made into a bike frame, and magnesium is not it. I would take a DeRosa King, C50 or Serota Ottrot Ti/Carbon over that anyday. For that kind of money I could get one of each.

Carbon fiber may have a much higher tensile strength than other materials on paper, but that really doesn't translate to much of a weight savings vs. Al or Ti. If you use bottom bracket stiffness as a parameter, weight savings of carbon and Ti lose a lot of their advantage. The damage issue with carbon is that the epoxy is easily scratched (compared to metals), and also an impact that wouldn't dent metal could cause delamination internally without any outward sign of damage.

And, a high-end steel frame only weights a few ounces more than Ti or Al. Lots of people still favor steel for its ride characteristics and appearance. To me, a Foco or UltraFoco frame with the mega downtube, diamond seatstays, and almost invisible welds, is about as cool as a frame gets. Guess that's why all these materials are still on the market and have a great following.

Dan

Actually, well made carbon fibre is much more resistance to fatigue than metals. It also does not have any appreciable aging like all metals do, where they become softer with age. I guess it all depends on the mfg. If you buy a $500 carbon frame, then that is what you get. The ultrafoco is known for having tinfoil thin tubing. If you dent that frame you better throw it away.

I thought that following was interesting. Even though it is a small sampling it shows a trend in the steel frames.

http://www.bikeworx.net/Road%20Bikes.htm

So, what does a 'lifetime warranty do for you'?

Lifetime warranty is a joke. The lifetime warranty is usually for "fre from defects." So lets analyze this for a minute. How many bike mfg's make their won tubing. How about NONE. How many machine their own parts. How about NONE. So they get their tubing ad they farm out all machining. The Carbon guys also farm out the specific layering processes as they do not do it in house. So they ultimately only cut tubing, assemble and finish the frames and then paint. If anyone knows of a bike maker that draws his own tubing let me know.

So, what is under warranty here, the defects in the materials which were not made by the frame builder. Usually the workmanship is under warranty, so if you find a nasty flaw when you first get it, you can return it.

How does the warranty come into effect if on one of your rides you run over a rock and pinch it sending it right into your down tube giving you a nice big dent. Asta la vista baby, that is normal road wear and no one will warranty it. So in the long run warranty is only good to keep the builder from selling you poor craftmanship. They cannot predict what damage a frame will take and tell you it is acceptable. Also, everyone here wants a featherweight frame, be it steel, AL, Ti or Carbn, so don't cry when it fails in a crash or from fatigue, because that is the price you pay when you want to own the same bike as the big boys.

Sometimes it's not a bad idea to go with a stronger frame at the expense of weight. The Look KG381 and 361 are prime examples. I have heard of Kg381's failing, but have never heard of it's cousin the 361 fail, infact it has better reviews. It is made with straight wall tubing instead of thnned out tubing and adds 100 grams to the weight of the 381. It appears to be stronger of the two at a weight penalty.

I only expect my frame to be free of defects and not to have any cracks or dings in it when I get it. What happens after is my problem, I guess. As for cost of a frame, I think that the more you pay the better the quality gets, to a point. I can't imagine that the Dogma Ego is worth 4 time more than the standard PRince or any other high end frame like a C40HP, King, CIelo, etc.

You have about as much knowledge of warranty as you do of materials....Zip, nada, zilch...0.

Yah, I guess you are right, I know nothing. But as little as I know you know infinitely less. If you decide you want to make this a war, that's fine by me, but remember, you initiated the insults not I.
Next time say your peace without insults jackoff!!

SEROTTA WARRANTY
LIFETIME WARRANTY ON WORKMANSHIP AND MATERIALS:
Serotta provides a lifetime warranty on Serotta Frames, Serotta Titanium Stems, and Serotta carbon and steel forks against defects in material and workmanship to the original owner.

LITESPEED WARRANTY
At Litespeed, we know you're in it for the long haul, and so are we. We put our heart and soul into every bicycle frame we build--and we back it all up with a lifetime warranty*.

This limited warranty is a complete and exclusive statement of Litespeed's obligations. Litespeed makes no express or implied warranties including, without limitation, warranty of liability, whether in contact, in tort, under any warranty, in negligence or otherwise, shall not exceed the return of the amount of purchase price paid by the purchaser. Under no circumstances shall Litespeed be liable for special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including, without limitation, damage to property and other economic loss.

Product Finishes

Any finish applied by Litespeed (paint, decals, etc.) are warranted against any manufacturing defects in materials and/or workmanship for one year from date of purchase. Scratches, dings, or abrasions caused by use or handling are not considered defects.

What is Not Covered

This warranty does not cover normal wear and tear, or normal maintenance items, or any damage, failure, or loss caused by accident, misuse, abuse, neglect, improper assembly, improper maintenance, or use of parts or devices not consistent with the original intent for the product sold, or failure to follow instruction for installation, assembly, or use.

ooh roadie fight! scratch! bite! pull leg hairs! oh no! wait! there aren't any leghairs! cause you shaved them all off like a girl!!!!!!!


zzzzzzz

LOL, sorry man, but I still have all my hair. I am more a freerider. I have a Stab, Bullit, and 2 RFX's. Also have an IH DH and dislocated and broke a few fingers bombing downhill at Snowshoe on the Thursday of the Norba. So I sat and watched everything the rest of the time. I don't scratch or pull hair, but I do bite!!


I do like road riding for keeping up the stamina and strength. and I like bikes of all types.

If you can read it,cool. If it was just cut and paste.....

here let me reduce it down for you to understand:

"LIFETIME WARRANTY ON WORKMANSHIP AND MATERIALS:"

isn't that what I was talking about. Do you have anything positive to contribute or are you just blowin methane out your mouth.

Back to the original subject -- I just got my C-50 two weeks ago, and recommend it over the Dogma -- VERY stiff for pedalling and cornering, still comfy to ride, FANTASTIC handling, descends like a rock, very stable at high speeds. Colnago has great geometry.

Can you compare the C50 to some other not so expensive bike...eerrmmm...say like a Trek 5200 or a Talon or a TCR Giant?
(if you've ridden one of these bikes)

though I would already know what you're gonna say