I noticed the NSW Institute of Sport (here in Sydney Oz) must see some prospective merit in sodium phosphate loading as they have called for volunteer cyclists to test. I doubt if they publish results but I may know some of the participants to get their views.

It would be just my luck to be in the placebo group if I put my hand up!

I know of a few guys down this way who have used it in the past! You do have to wonder about the health effects of taking a lot of it.

cheers!

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Ric do you know any other company that a person could buy tribasic sodium phosphate from?

I wrote to to the company that you said but I got the reply:

Hello Andrej,

We may have had some of the product you mention but it is not on our current stock list. I have no knowledge of it.



I think you can assume that we cannot supply you. Sorry.



Ivor

Shootek try

http://www.trackcycling.co.uk

check under techno fuel.It costs just over £7 for 100g.

The Tekno Fuel Phosphate uses dibasic sodium phosphate: it has been postulated that this may cause fatigue at a cellular level, and hinder your performance. From memory, all the studies that seen an ergogenic effect have used tribasic sodium phosphate.

Furthermore, the Tekno Fuel phosphate, is 'loose', i.e., you have to weigh/measure it out yourself. Get too little and it'll likely have no effect, too much can have bad consequences. Not many people have access to highly accurate scales to weigh each serving to 1gram!

I'm currently waiting to hear back from the company and others, as there's been quite a lot of interest in the phosphate over the last couple of months.

Ric

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OK Please tell us as son as you hear anything!!!

Andrej

Here is a source for tribasic:
http://www.e-caps.com/products/produ...il.cfm?sku=RDB

I used to be a real science geek. One night before the start of a very fast and well-know So Cal training ride, I calculated how many milliequivilents of bicarbonate ions I would have to ingest to improve lactate buffering based on some data I had come across.

The ride started at 0615 and at around 0515, I re-checked my calculations from the night before and carefully mixed up a solution of baking soda and water(sodium bicarbonate)using a gram scale.

I gulped it down, felt fine, was ready to jam!!!

I drove the 30 minutes to the start, put my bike together and warmed up. After a few minutes I felt a very strange and uncomfortable sensation in my gut. After a few more minutes the pain became intolerable, and I was very quickly going to have to find a place to relieve myself.

As the sun came up and illuminated the area, many joggers and other fitness enthusiasts were out bright and early, further compounding a bad situation.

I managed to find a patch of bamboo and tall grass in a nearby dry riverbed. Let's just say it was the worst case of diarrhea I had ever know. Not only in magnitude, but in duration as well.

Due to the lack of facilities available, let's just say that my personal hygine was "less than optimal."

I managed to make the start with about 30 seconds to spare. I was surprised to finsh the ride well, and quickly got home for a shower.

The moral of the story???

If you want to experiment with ergogenic aids, be sure to have a toilet nearby!!!

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From memory, it's something like 50% of subjects have problems with bicarbonate loading, causing severe GI distress.

Bicarbonate loading is only really useful for short, very high intensity workloads (e.g., up to ~ 6-mins).

Ric

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The loading process is 1 mg max per day for 4 days. A bunch the night before will cause that.

The Training Bible as alternative loading programs for folks with sensitive stomachs.

I have never heard of loading with sodium bicarbonate, only sodium phosphate but maybe they are the same? Somehow I doubt it.

Tell me about it Ric!!!

I came across a study that showed improved lactate
tolerance with bicarb loading. I think it was for runners. It was around 1992. They showed the formula based on kg's of bodyweight.

I though it(bicarb)would work well even though I was aware of possible G.I. distress. Anyone who has taken a chemistry class knows that baking soda and water solutions are used to neutralize strong acid spills. I though the lactate would meet its match with the bicarb. Maybe if I could have kept it inside!!!

For the most part, hard training and solid nutrition are by far the most important thing anyone can do for good health and performance.
Still, people always look for an edge.

When I lifted a lot, I knew guys that did steroids. Lots of them. I knew one guy that was "stacking" with Dianabol, Winstrol, Anadrol 50, Decca, HGH, and more. A cocktail of injectable and oral steroids. He said if he couldn't remember if he took his "D-Bol" in the morning, he would take a few in the afternoon just to be sure!!!

I never took steroids or any illegal substances. I was weaker than all of them. But then again, I still have all my hair!!! One guy had a massive stroke surfing in Newport Beach one day. He was 19 years old.

People experiment with performance aids, but in the end, a true champion will excel without them. Athletes often develop psychological crutches if they don't take their "magic potion" before important competitions.

Switching foods and carb drinks, etc. can also cause problems with the digestive system, let alone pure ergogenic aids. Whenever you make a big change in diet or supplements, make sure your body agreees with it, and don't do it the night before an important event!!!

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The amount needed for sodium *bicarbonate* loading is 0.3 grams per kg body mass, i.e., a 70 kg person would need 21 grams of sodium bicarbonate.

As an aside, i suggest that *all* people use performance aids!

Ric

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Fat guy wrote:
The loading process is 1 mg max per day for 4 days. A bunch the night before will cause that.

>assuming that you are talking about sodium phosphate then the needed amount for an ergogenic effect is *1000 mg* four times per day for 4 to 5 days. This is the only protocol that has caused an ergogenic effect.


The Training Bible as alternative loading programs for folks with sensitive stomachs.
>unproven and unlikely to work (if you mean the phosphate one)


I have never heard of loading with sodium bicarbonate, only sodium phosphate but maybe they are the same? Somehow I doubt it.
>Bicarb loading has been used, for a while. Hill and Lupton (1923) were the first to suggest that buffering H+ ions would counteract lactic acid and prolong short-term (high intensity) exercise.

Bicarb works by "neutralising" the acid during very intense exercise (e.g., 1km TT type efforts, not crit or road racing).

There's two ways in which phosphate has been thought to work, both have research to back them up. They are increased 2,3-BPG and increases in cardiac output.

Phosphate 'increases' fitness (by increasing LT and Vo2max), whereas bicarb delays fatigue.

Ric

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Sodium phosphate is prescribed as a laxative. Are the volumes of ingestion that are being recommended more or less than those recommended for use as a laxative? If they are the same as or more, why would I want to do that (I want to be on the bike, not the toilet!)? Laxatives can cause dehydration (by drawing water into the digestive system?), so presumably you should be taking a lot of water with it as well?

These were all things that had to be considered by our ethics board, prior to our investigations. however, once we changed from swallowing capsules to emptying the contents into ~ 500 mL of liquid (e.g., cold drink), no one reported any GI distress (with the swallowing some people ended up vomitting).

No further problems occured, and we ended up with a significant ergogenic effect.

Ric

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