Sodium Phosphate - Page 3

Hi!

I'm new here, so greetings to you all cycling fans!

I have a question about this phosphate thing. I've read a lots of articles about it and decided to give it a try. I've managed to get some tribasic from a chemicals factory (they said it's legal, meaning that i don't have to have any licenses to buy it). Well, it's quite cheap, by the way. (If it works, then probably it's the most practical performance aid, looking at the price/benefit ratio...)

But it's not pure na3po4, it has 12*h2o (water...) added to it, which is the available hydrous form at most places. I have 1kg of it (probably would be enough for years, if one wants to use it regurarly; but i don't suggest that thing). According to the molecular weights of both materials, i have 431 grams of na3po4 and the remaining 569 grams is water.

At e-caps.com, dr. Bill's saying that "na3po4+12h2o=tribasic sodium phosphate". And he doesn't mentioning "12-hydrate" or "dodecahydrate"; nor do the other phosphate-documents. From this, i suggest that i have to take 1 grams of na3po4+12h2o.

Is my logic correct, or i have to measure 1 grams only from na3po4? (Which would mean that i have to take in 2.3 grams from the mixture, four times a day.)

The difference between the two doses is 1.3 grams, which is quite huge; so it's an important question. I don't want to get overdosed, you know ;-) Nor want to be underdosed, of course...

Thanx for your help!

PS: I will try to swallow by dissolving it in a glass of pure orange juice, so the high alkalinity of the tribasic can be neutralized. Is this method okay?

In our study, as far as i'm aware is the latest study on phosphate loading we used Na3PO4.12H2O, one gram four times a day. We dissolved the phosphate in ~ 500mL of (e.g.) orange squash/cordial. Do not attempt to take the phosphate without dissolving it first, it can cause pretty much instantaneous vomitting :-(.

Stern, R. A., Folland, J., Brickley, G. (2001, A). Sodium phosphate loading can improve laboratory 10-mile cycling performance in trained cyclists. Canadian Journal of Physiology

Ric

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http://www.cyclecoach.com

Ric,

I happened to find this thread and your research article “Sodium Phosphate Loading”. I think it’s great you did this research and it sure looks like there’s evidence that Sodium Phosphate Loading can increase athletic performance in certain situations. Using your numbers I only get a 3.3% increase in performance vs. 8%. There is an 8% increase in power, as you stated, but isn’t the time difference more telling than the power difference, especially if you’re comparing your results to the research results at the top of the page, i.e. “The article said that 25 mile time could be reduced by about 8 % with phosphate, which, is a hefty increase in performance.” Also, I’m not sure what you mean by, “One subject, however, went backwards when using the phosphate, which means that the average improvement was actually greater than 40 seconds.” Could you please explain this? Sorry if I sound like a picky geek but I often read research articles in magazines… and have questions afterwards. This thread gives me the rare opportunity to ask questions. Thanks.

iDog wrote, i replied with >>

Ric,

I happened to find this thread and your research article “Sodium Phosphate Loading”. I think it’s great you did this research and it sure looks like there’s evidence that Sodium Phosphate Loading can increase athletic performance in certain situations. Using your numbers I only get a 3.3% increase in performance vs. 8%. There is an 8% increase in power, as you stated, but isn’t the time difference more telling than the power difference, especially if you’re comparing your results to the research results at the top of the page, i.e. “The article said that 25 mile time could be reduced by about 8 % with phosphate, which, is a hefty increase in performance.”

>>Originally, the idea appeared in a cycling mag in the UK and the author of that article suggested that phosphate would decrease time by ~ 8%. As my web page article appeared later in that same magazine, the intro was to set the 'scene' as reagrds the first article

>>in the lab, you'd always measure power output for cycling as opposed to speed. Speed will vary under many different conditions (head winds, tail winds, up hill, downhill, different barometric pressures, etc).

Also, I’m not sure what you mean by, “One subject, however, went backwards when using the phosphate, which means that the average improvement was actually greater than 40 seconds.”

>>probably badly worded! basically, one subject produced less power in his phosphate trial compared to his placebo and control trial. therefore, if i hadn't have included him in the study, the average would have been better than the 40-secs or 8%

Could you please explain this? Sorry if I sound like a picky geek but I often read research articles in magazines… and have questions afterwards. This thread gives me the rare opportunity to ask questions. Thanks.

>>hope that helps?

ric

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Ric,

Thanks for the reply. Now I understand your comment about, “One subject… went backwards…”. I was thinking, if one subject was slower on the phosphate wouldn’t this make the average improvement less than 40 seconds (vs. more) – distorted thinking on my part – my thinking only sounds logical “on the surface”.

I think I understand why it’s better to compare power - if power is measured accurately. I’m assuming it is.

I haven’t read the article/research on the 25 mile time trial (that you refer to at the beginning of your article). Eventhough they say, “…time could be reduced by 8%...”, I’m guessing they also measured power and translated this to time? I would think this can be translated directly. Right?

Can you briefly describe how power is measured? Is it basically a measurement of the force (torque) applied to the pedals? Thanks for the info.

Power is usually measured accurately. There's several ways of measuring power, the two most popular are the Power Tap hub (www.power-tap.com) and the SRM cranks (www.srm.de).

Both systems use strain gauges to measure the torque and then either multiplied out by hub or crank velocity respectively. Both systems are very accurate. Data can then be downloaded to your PC/Mac.

There's quite a bit of info in the power forum, or here for how to determine zones for training with power http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern

ric

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Some people (including myself) have been finding it hard to locate Tri-basic Sodium Phosphate. Most of the time when I called the raw material manufacturers they didn't even have it listed on their databases, let alone sell it.

Something which will help you locate it is knowing its MSDS number which is. S4770.

For a copy of the MSDS (there may be newer version) you may find it here.
http://164.107.52.42/MSDS/S/sodium%2...20tribasic.pdf

Another site is useful in the fact it lists the LD50 (Dose at which you 50% of test animals died,based on body weight), which happens to be 7400 mg kg-1. Or approx 500 grams for a 70kg person. Unlikly.
http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/SO/so..._tribasic.html

Finally I did locate a supplier in Australia for this. As people have said before it is dirt cheap, which is good cause they only sell it in 25kg, which will cost approx $55 AUS, or $35US.

I hope this helps.
p.s. My supplier only has it as Technical Grade and not Food Grade, which should be ok....I hope. Especially with only taking 1gm/day.

At that rate 25kg is going to last you a long time

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Steve
CyclingForums.com

what company supplies it in AUS?

I can hardly believe I'm reading about all you guys shamelessly doping with sodium phosphate. Wouldn't this be easy to detect with testing as a performance enhancing substance? Why is this not on the banned list? Is it expected to be in the near future? Why should athletes have to take chemicals to stay in competition with those of you who are doing this?

lots of things are performance enhancing, that aren't on the banned list just like phosphate isn't (on the banned list).

it isn't doping, so there's no need to be shamed about it.

ric

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it's not doping because it's not on the banned list? if it were added to the banned list, then you would say it's doping?

What does sodium phosphate do to your resting BP?

in reverse order, no idea if SP does anything to your BP, never checked. the mechanism by which it may work (it needs to be further elucidated) may be beneficial to cardiac patients.

as i said there's many things that improve performance that are not on the banned list. some of them you're likely to use yourself, e.g., food, carbohydrates, water, caffeine, training. and before you suggest that these are either real foods or needed (e.g. training), phosphates and phosphorous is present in huge quantities throughout our food and drinks, is a needed chemical for normal body functioning and is eaten/consumed every day.

ric

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I guess that makes it all the more remarkable that this sodium phosphate will be a performance enhancer because if they are both electrolytes, they will separate to their ions in solution. Why would ingestion in combined form be an advantage? Is it the quantities? Are the doses higher than these huge quantities we are already consuming?

all i can say is that they don't dissolve into solution very much. can't answer the other bit, not sure there is an answer. there only appears to be a benefit with tribasic SP. other types of SP or P don't appear to have any effect (or may even be detrimental).

ric

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