pealling push up push down - Page 11

All emphasis is on the forward/down stroke and the pointing down of toes is attempted and continued from start to finish of the stroke. The unweighting and drawing back of idling leg is done naturally without any effort, yet it still contributes some power to the downward leg.

Which is exactly what I said.

You're only using one leg at a time and therefore have a completly dead section for each leg between 5 and 11.

I use the same technique while applying max power between 7 and 10 in addition to your stroke allowing me to climb in a 53*12 for training purposes.

One leg and two arms at a time in the power generating technique but the rising leg is not idle, it's doing some necessary useful work, unweighting and drawing back to 10 where it prepares muscles for max power application at 11 while at the same time taking a short rest. One important fact to remember is that the resistance for all my pedal power comes from my hips and arms, in your case the lower back must take all the resistance strain while my lower back is in a relaxed state at all times and the higher the gear, the more relaxed the lower back.

Do you mean the stabilisation or power comes from the arms and hips?

Do you really think you can pull with your upper body for long periods of time?

How do you use your hips without pulling up?

We know you can use your back for very long periods of time

Most of the power and resistance comes from the hips, and while one arm is stabilising and supporting all upper body weight, the other arm is supplying additional pedalling resistance. The arm resistance is hinged in the hips, in your case if you attempt to use any arm resistance it will be hinged in the lower back which is not good. I can use my hips without doing any pulling up because one of my arms is doing the pulling up at all times. There is no limit to the time you can spend pulling up with the upper body because like the legs, one arm is being briefly rested while the other works.

I'd like to see you try this in a race?

I had no complaints about the concept of pushing only, but this technique is becoming a joke.

I don't do any pushing as you know it, I slide the power towards the pedal axle, the cleat then gets to work and does the rest. That is why old style cleats etc. and correct cleat setting are so important if this technique is to be used. This technique is not for road races, it's ideal for TT's.

Comments like:

Makes your technique a joke amongst good riders.
It would only take you 100meters in a road race to realise that you had the worst technique in the race.

How many people apart from yourself, that are good cyclists, use this technique you've been describing?

Being able to use all three techniques, circular, mashing and linear, I use the most suitable technique for the different requirements during races or TT's. Take a look at Anquetil's video and see for yourself what linear pedalling can do for your technique.
When "your" pushing technique is used you are restricted to maximum power application in only one direction and this is the cause of that dead spot area between 11 and 1 o'c, when using the linear sliding style maximum power can be steered through that dead area and down by clever use of ankle and calf muscles. I am confident that this is the perfection all researchers have been seeking in pedalling technique with the added bonus of its medical advantages especially where the lower back is concerned. That is my final post. Hope your pushing and pulling up continues to work for you.

That smart ankle action sounds alot like scraping mud off the bottom of the shoe action we spoke of earlier. But each leg still has a dead spot on the entire up stoke.

I think we can summarise that no technique is best for everyone but only the technique that you have trained for and when the terrain and situation is correct.

Just to throw in my personal experience as an amateur, i have found that the method of making large circles works well to reduce fatigue, especially on long rides. i did the houston-austin MS-150 this spring and on the first 100 mile day I would periodically take spinning breaks, really focusing on on keeping my RPMs at 90 or above, but when I was leading a pace line cruising along at 24mph I did end up "mashing" a bit more than I should have been, but I am working on my form and efficiency when I am really pushing myself. Either way, it's those long spinning "big circle" breaks where I really concentrate on my pedaling motion that really seem to help reduce muscle fatigue and allow me to keep my ave. speed up over longer distances. that's very unscientific, I know, but that's what I have found.

As a side note, on that ride, for some reason the second 80 mile my legs felt much much better than the first day and I ended up leading our group's pace line for 20 minutes or more at a time. It was a really great feeling and I was happy to pull for so long. Everyone kept joking that I must have taken something that morning.

I'm a recreational rider and I dont care about the science so much as realizing I'm just a whimpy engine on my machine and to make it go I have to put out power as efficiently as possible. I have three techniques basically and if you were to look at me pedalling you can't see a difference. My unconscious technique has me,"mashing the pedals," so to speak. My next technique is what I call the, "circle." When I switch from mash to circle, at the same apparent effort I gain a couple of miles per hour in speed. In trying to perfect the circle I imagine the edges of my feet are connected to the cranks and I am rotating the cranks at a steady rate. I let my brain figure out which muscles fire when.

My third technique I call the piston technique. I'm actively pulling up with the rear leg while mashing down with the forward leg. This lets me use muscle groups slightly differently than my mashing technique. When I climb I definately am pulling up because I unweight the bottoms of my feet and put pressure on the tops on the pull stroke and I rotate my ankle up a bit on the pull.

I notice in myself from foot fatigue that if I am unconsciously mashing I'm actually pushing my rear leg up with my front leg. The rear leg is resting while the front leg is doing all the work. I notice this because the bottoms of my feet will begin to burn. When I consciously switch to spinning my feet are moving around in my shoes, ever so slightly.

Late in a long ride, when I am tired, I switch to the piston technique. I find more energy in muscles that have not been fully fatigued. The bottom line is when we ride we try improve our technique so as to not waste power in moving a lazy leg with the forward leg such as I do when I am mashing. Mashing has it's place, though for it helps develop strength in the muscles.

There, I put my two cents in without seeing if anyone else has said essentially the same thing. Me is bad.

I'll throw my two cents in also, while not reading the entire thread either

I've been doing these sprint rides 1 night per week with a local group, and there's one ex professional on the ride usually. I learned from him that pulling up as you push down during a sprint is absolutely key. Other than that, I wouldn't bet that you want to focus on anything other than the pedal stroke that gives you the most comfort, efficiency, and speed for the task at hand. Just my opinion, I only see a need to push down/pull up in a sprint, mash for a very short time when you have to speed up quickly (and don't have time to shift perhaps), and do the unweighting of the foot coming up at most other times during a ride/race. I'm not sure if I'm describing this well, but I'm a high cadence rider (95-105 usually), so my opinion could be biased towards the fact that I trained myself that way and don't really have experience riding in a mashing style or in a pull/push style that much.

practice peadling invtervals at a very high cadence (around 120-130) twice a week. Do 4x4 min intervals with full reco between each (HR does not matter for this skills drill). if you do this, you will learn to pedal more efficinantly in a circle rather then pedaling by pushing "up and down"