pealling push up push down - Page 2

[QUOTE=Brizza]

Pulling on the pedal does create power, but many who have specialised in pushing using the quads and hamstrings can produce alot of power.

This doesn't mean that the weekend racer can't improve his power output by adding a pull section to his pedal stroke.

The trick is to maintain the power of the push while adding the pull, to the point where it becomes a full circle or power output.





That is Frank Day's (inventor of POWERCRANKS) teaching but except for those who use the ankling technique, very few seem to be in agreement with it.

The reply that studies have shown elite cyclists do little pulling up is correct. I have read this in several magazines over the years.

Most studies then conclude that you concentrate on pedalling in a circle rather than stomping on the down stroke. A way of doing this is to iimagine on the downstroke you have dog **** on your shoe and you drag your foot backwards at the bottom of the stroke to get it off.

Good luck.

It makes a difference depending on the individual. Some individuals are very strong in the quads (out of the saddle sprinters), some are very strong in the hamstrings (in the saddle climbers climbers) other have a nice balance (time trialers).

Ric needs to stop assuming one theory applies to all.


As you do more training for this technique you will find that it specifically works the pull section of the stroke. Some riders (myself included) find this extremely helpful for hill climbing and headwinds.

Not in my experience (as a coach and rider). It just finishes of your downstroke smoothly. The upstroke, even in elite cyclists, is passive or provides insignificant power.

But what type of riding are you refering to? (hills, winds, speeds)

Different riders use different techniques, but I strugle to beleive all elite riders pedal in squares (trackies do).

I can relate to Ric's comments about MTB riders needing to pull up more to smooth out the stroke. Last weekend I rode a MTB up steep loose surfaced hills for the first time and traction was the limiting factor. Evening out the torque through the full pedaling cycle helped.

On the road bike, I find pulling up while pedalling for a minute or two can provide some relief when my legs are fatigued by brining into play some different/extra muscles especially when climbing and I don't have any lower gears available to ease the pressure. I wouldn't ride like that all the time and on the flats I could achieve the same results by changing down and spinning faster.

I guess I'm lucky enough to have been one of those people that started biking before reading everything telling me how to pedal. For whatever it's worth, that led me to just develop what works best for me. I can say...

That I pedal in more than one way depending upon the situation. I don't know what words I would use to term it, but when I'm riding normally I probably pedal just like everyone else (I think). I apply the vast majority of the power on the down stroke. The power applied to the up stroke is minimal, only enough to pedal smoothly. That's probably what is referred to as "un-weighting" but I don't know.. it just seems to work better for me.

On occasion however, and most often on a long climb, I adopt a distinctly different style. I'll alternate from using my normal pedaling style (which I feel more in my quads) to a method I don't have the words for, but I actually slide backwards on the seat and just before the top part of the stroke, I let my heel fall lower than the pedal...in this way I can apply MUCH more power to the very top of the stroke, and it seems to shift the majority of the work to my hamstrings. I suspect that by doing this, I give up about the same percentage of "power stroke" at the bottom, but the fact is it "feels" as if it lets me use fresher muscles, and generate more power.

I have no idea what anyone would call doing that "style", although I'm curious as to if anyone else does it. Whatever it is, it works...and to me that's all that matters in the end. In many cases I can actually speed up my rate of climb without "feeling" the extra force required from my legs.

John

I'm not aware of a specific term for the "heal down" or "push and pull" technique, but it does work for some riders in some situations.

MTB riders have the most continual pedaling stroke because they are familiar with the continual power required for slipery surfaces. There is an old school of thought that track riders also develop a good technique being on fixed gears, however the gear only ensures that they don't freewheel and not that they apply power throughout the rotation.

Track riders pedal with the down action (which is why track shoes are designed with the heal up) and many great trackies are also good tour riders.

Though one mechanism works for one rider, doesn't mean it is "better" or will work for other riders, but I do agree with Mansmind that using the upstroke can deliver a large amount of power when climbing (and also into long straights with a strong headwind similar to climbing a continual hill).

I also vary my pedaling style for short periods when my quads are fatigued from climbing. If I emphasize pushing over the top of the stroke, and pulling through the bottom, it seems to give relief to the tired quads while maintaining the same power.

Probably nothing an elite track racer would do in a short lab test of peak power, but it seems to help me a bit on the long seated climbs.

I pull up quite a bit (more than just 'unweighting') when jumping into a sprint or sprinting. Especially when charging up a short, steep hill where my weight has been shifted forward, I will actually lift the back wheel at times from the force of my back leg pulling up and forward to get over the top of the crank as quickly as possible.

Maybe sprinting wasn't included in the test with the force pedals (and I'm by no means 'elite') but there are certainly situations where there can be a substantial amount of pulling up.

It would be nearly impossible to pull up on the pedal stroke. Remember, you're pushing down with that other pedal and the quadricep muscles are much stronger than the hamstrings. Best you can do is unweight.

Heel Down Pedaling supposedly keeps the calf muscles from firing, which contribute little to the pedal stroke but sap energy like crazy.

There may be certain cycling situations you're thinking of when you make that statement, but I assure you it is by no means impossible to do.

Also, don't the hamstrings drive the knee down and back on the downstroke, while the quads lift the knee on the upstroke?

There's 2 situations that I can think of where concentrating on pulling up (or more correctly pedalling smoothly in a circle) will help.

One is out of the saddle on steep climbs on the road, where it can provide a bit of relief.

The other is on steep climbs on the mountain bike where you are in a small gear and travelling slowly and you need to keep a smooth action to stop the wheel from spinning, as it would with uneven power application.

Yes, agree. When I'm pulling up, can definately feel the tops of my feet pulling on the shoes. That's more than just unweighting. Pulling up must be using the quads, but seems to be a different part of the muscle than you use for normal pedaling.

That's about the extent of any "pulling" I do. If I'm pulling against the top of my shoe that tells me it's enough. If I apply more power to the pull, I begin to focus on that as opposed to the push, and I definitely produce more power by pushing as opposed to pulling.

In addition, the "heel-down" thing I do is still pushing, but seems to change the position of the power portion of the stroke and use different muscles, or at least uses those muscles in different ways/relationships. It "feels" like it gets my glutes more into the game and from memories of my weight lifting days, there can't be much wrong with that.

I will say that this "style" seems to place more emphasis on the upper body, because to do what I'm referring to, you have to lock your position using arms, etc. in order to create the platform for the push.

Granted the position is vastly different, but what it allows me to do is get just a little closer to the same action you would use on a leg press. I doubt it is nearly as efficient as pedaling in a normal way, but it definitely takes some of the stress off the quads and gives them at least a little bit of a breather.

Perhaps it wouldn't work for everyone, but it works for me.

John