pealling push up push down - Page 5

It couldn't be that your hams are "bulging" from natural motion involved could it? As a simple test, in the gym how much weight can you curl on a leg cur machine that isolates the hams? Even in a burly weight lifter this will be significantly less than the quads can lift when isolated on a quad extension machine. I'm not saying that your hamstring isn't a strong muscle, just that it's primary purpose is to move the leg out of the way. As such it's not nearly as strong as the driving muscles of the leg.

My hamstrings are getting sore reading about all this stuff on correct pedaling technique. I'm going to get on my bike and ride...no more typing, more pedaling! Then we'll all be good cyclists with effective pedaling technique! Just keep riding!

Jerryz, of course the hams aren't as strong as the quads (I think in some powerlifters hamstring strength of 80% of that of the quadriceps has been observed, usually the hams are 1/2 as strong if you grab a guy off the street), but I can tell you I'm pulling up with the hams and using the hip flexors too when attempting a maximum sprint. When doing steady state endurance cycling, I don't feel my hamstrings and I don't attempt to pull up but just move my legs out of the way, as you say.

Quite frankly, stronger hamstrings are considered a benefit for 50/60/100 m dash, and the running motion is quite similar to cycling, if anything the smaller movement circle (partial range of contraction of muscles) and lower leg velocity allows for generation of even higher forces (for duration, not peak) during an all out cycle sprint, so I would expect strengthening of hip flexors/hams to be of benefit to a sprint cyclist. Regular back squats will strengthen both, along with the quads and glutes.

As to how much I've lifted in the gym, for a max leg curl, probably about 85 kg. I've trained squats and deadlifts for years maxxing at about 240 kg DL, although I'm much weaker now as big back muscles aren't useful for endurance cycling.

-Bikeguy

[QUOTE=bikeguy]Crowley, no way pulling up is going to significantly increase endurance power. The downstroke uses multiple muscle groups (including the hamstrings), while the upstroke taxes the hamstrings again. It's better to let them rest during the upstroke.




I never said it does and I completely agree with what you say above. What I
am saying is, maximum sustained power in a TT can be achieved
without ever using direct downward pedal pressure or any pulling up power
except for out of the saddle acceleration purposes at the start of the TT.

n crowley, ok, I misunderstood. I agree with that statement.

-Bikeguy

If that was the case nobody would do it, and to believe they would makes me think you have rocks in your head. Everyone has a speedo, it's not like we can't tell if we're not going faster.

The pull while standing is a bit different to the pull while seated (my back wheel has a habit of jumping off the ground out of hairpins) and uses a combination of muscles lower in back of the leg (calves and soleus more than hamies).

Using the up section of the stroke and engaging your glutes and hamstrings does increase your endurance particularly during climbs.

Engaging the glutes does take some training so don't expect it to work first time.

Have you worded that right?

Yes it has been worded correctly and the world's best ever TT rider did just that.

If you were asked to invent the perfect pedalling technique for an hour record attempt, what would your objectives be ?

Have you done a complete backflip from your position of last month were pushing was the only way?

For an hour you need aerobic endurance, aerobic muscle endurance and maximum sustainable power.
Being smooth is not a priority but endurance is and you would need to train your muscles to the pedaling style you use.

I would choose the most energy effecient technique and technique that my muscles find the least fatiguing. What my muscles find fatiguing and what Crowley's muscles find fatiguing.

While the hamstrings are very strong and resistant to fatigue they'll fatigue slower if you share the workload between the hamstrings and the quads.

Who is the world's best ever time trialer?

No, pushing down (vertical pedal pressure) has never been part of linear pedalling.
I am asking you to describe what your idea of the most efficient technique would be, even if you could not do it.
As for the best TT rider, that "is" should read "was", now you have the answer.

A stroke with continuous pressure on the pedal utilising both the up and down sections of the stroke with max pressure from both the up and down.

I haven't been part of this discussion so far, but I've been following similar discussions in this forum and other places, it's quite interesting.

I found this rather interesting article/analysis with some illustrations that looks at the forces applied at the pedal while sitting or standing, and it's quite surprising how uneven the pedal pressure actually is when you look at how riders actually perform, and not theories.

http://www.acay.com.au/~mkrause/Cycl...kinematics.htm

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Aaberg

But that still leaves you with the "dead spot area" at the top of the stroke.

Interesting read. That generally confirms the pushes down side. I tend to think that the circular pedal stroke is overrated. If anything as I have gotten faster I see myself as pushing down more and more and just clearing my legs more efficiently. Especially when I want to really accelerate.

Same here actually (I have gotten faster). I worked for many years on my circular pedal stroke and feel that I have quite a good one actually. Oh, have I spent many hours developing my pedal stroke...

However, after following several discussions like this, doing some reading on my own, and listening to Ric (amongst others) here at this forum, I thought I'd forget about the circular pedal stroke for a while and give the "stomping on the pedals" a try.

My experience is that I feel much more powerful now, when I just focus on stomping down on the down stroke. When I try my good old circular pedalling now, I can actually feel that while I'm focusing on pulling back and up, I'm also holding back on my down stroke.

I am realizing that I have actually limited my own power for several years because I have prioritized what I thought was good technique, over developing as much power as I can.

No more circular pedalling for me...

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Aaberg

Not only is 'circular' pedalling overrated, the evidence appears to be against it -- in general, all the research that had examinded actual pedal forces tends to show that less good cyclist are more 'circular', while better cyclists simply stomp down harder.

As i said in another thread i would not worry about how you pedal (for the vast majority -- MTBers are an exception due to issues of steep and slippy hills) -- all you want to do is aim to produce the greatest power over the duration of your ride

ric

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