30 second intervals

robkit · #1 11-11.-2005

recently i've seen some references to research suggesting that rides incorporating numerous 30 second intervals "all out" may illicit faster gains in VO2 max than other forms of training.

does anyone do these and if so how - how many intervals and how long is the session?

alternatively - i know ive seen references to this on the forums before - but cannot find, can anyone remember and provide a link?

Spunout · #2 11-11.-2005

There is a reference to a study in Asker Jeukendrup's High Performance Cycling. This interval length (along with 4:4) had better improvements in 40k TT time than 1, 2 or 3 minute intervals.

It is your longest sprint, or shortest Anerobic Capacity effort. It is basically a sprint that doesn't end! Suggest 30s,4m30s for complete recovery and ATP refuelling. Do them until your power drops. Start with 6, go to as hight as 12.

frenchyge · #3 11-11.-2005

This what you're looking for?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RapDaddyo

As I read your last post about your preferred races and your race strategy, it occurred to me that you may want to investigate the supramaximal intervals of short duration (e.g., 30s). These have been shown to increase both LT and VO2MAX as well as short-term sprint power. These would seem to help you for the last lap. There is an interesting article on this type of interval training here http://www.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2...apers/LAUR.pdf.

ric_stern/RST · #4 11-11.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenchyge

This what you're looking for?

As a word of 'warning' if you read this paper, it may not be possible for people to complete any of these 30-second intervals, depending on how much power they can produce.

Whilst, i haven't read the paper thoroughly, it does appear that the 30-sec intervals are 175% of the peak power output (PPO) obtained in a test similar to the RST MAP test.

However, in this paper, the researchers have used a 30 W/min incremental rate (versus, 15, 20, or 25 W/min) for RST. This would give you a higher PPO/MAP than during the RST test (so, far nothing wrong with that!).

The issue for some riders is that they would not be able to ride at 175% of PPO for any length of time. For e.g., i might be able to manage that intensity for about 10 to 15 secs. On the other hand, i know of world champion elite male pros, who simply cannot ride at that power for even a single second. It therefore, may not be possible for some riders to complete these sessions.

Ric

HammerHead · #5 11-11.-2005

My coach has me do something similar when gearing up for racing. I usually do 30 sec intervals, but only 30 sec rest in between, 3 to 5 sets of 3 to 4 reps. It's a brutal workout for me. I usually do them at about double my 40k TT power. At least to start. By the end I fade for sure.

The one thing I have noticed about these, is that I always feel amazing the next day.

blkhotrod · #6 11-11.-2005

The more I read responses from Ric, the less I believe what he says. You can't find many of his posts where he doesn't say what is wrong with an idea, or this/that can't work, or LA/CTC Performance book is wrong/misleading.

Have you ever seen a post where he has said what does work in his experience, except 3 min sprint intervals year round to increase VO2 max?

Ric, please help us all and post 5 things that you feel endurance cyclist should do to improve. Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

As a word of 'warning' if you read this paper, it may not be possible for people to complete any of these 30-second intervals, depending on how much power they can produce.

Whilst, i haven't read the paper thoroughly, it does appear that the 30-sec intervals are 175% of the peak power output (PPO) obtained in a test similar to the RST MAP test.

However, in this paper, the researchers have used a 30 W/min incremental rate (versus, 15, 20, or 25 W/min) for RST. This would give you a higher PPO/MAP than during the RST test (so, far nothing wrong with that!).

The issue for some riders is that they would not be able to ride at 175% of PPO for any length of time. For e.g., i might be able to manage that intensity for about 10 to 15 secs. On the other hand, i know of world champion elite male pros, who simply cannot ride at that power for even a single second. It therefore, may not be possible for some riders to complete these sessions.

Ric

Cyclingboy · #7 11-11.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by HammerHead

My coach has me do something similar when gearing up for racing. I usually do 30 sec intervals, but only 30 sec rest in between, 3 to 5 sets of 3 to 4 reps. It's a brutal workout for me. I usually do them at about double my 40k TT power. At least to start. By the end I fade for sure.

The one thing I have noticed about these, is that I always feel amazing the next day.

I do these workouts on rollers. They realy kill you

I don't now if they improve your VO2max but they prepare you for the realy intense parts in a race like sprinting or climbing short hills.

frenchyge · #8 11-11.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by blkhotrod

Have you ever seen a post where he has said what does work in his experience, except 3 min sprint intervals year round to increase VO2 max?

Sure, I've found Ric's advice (posts on this forum, as well as his cyclingnews.com article) to be very helpful, either as tips or as research-based support for de-bunking cycling 'myths.'

I won't try to put words in his mouth, but I would certainly understand if he chose to reserve his best coaching tips for the riders who pay for his coaching services (I'm not personally one of those people, btw). As far as his efforts toward 'keeping things in line' on this forum, I think that helps keep the quality of the advice on this forum fairly high in most cases, and if that's how he saw his role as a moderator here, then I would certainly understand that as well.

The quantity of his posts has decreased over the past couple months, but I won't speculate whether that's due to specific circumstances on his part, or whether the other posters seem to be handling the discussions competently on their own without his input.

whoawhoa · #9 11-11.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by blkhotrod

The more I read responses from Ric, the less I believe what he says. You can't find many of his posts where he doesn't say what is wrong with an idea, or this/that can't work, or LA/CTC Performance book is wrong/misleading.

Have you ever seen a post where he has said what does work in his experience, except 3 min sprint intervals year round to increase VO2 max?

Ric, please help us all and post 5 things that you feel endurance cyclist should do to improve. Thank you.

I don't think he ever has or ever would say that only 3 min intervals is the way to improve vo2max. I know I've read that he suggests intervals from 3-8 minutes as the best way to improve v02max.

And yes, he says a lot of stuff is wrong or misleading, but every time he seems to have the bulk of evidence, as well as common sense, on his side.

ric_stern/RST · #10 11-11.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by blkhotrod

The more I read responses from Ric, the less I believe what he says. You can't find many of his posts where he doesn't say what is wrong with an idea, or this/that can't work, or LA/CTC Performance book is wrong/misleading.

Have you ever seen a post where he has said what does work in his experience, except 3 min sprint intervals year round to increase VO2 max?

Ric, please help us all and post 5 things that you feel endurance cyclist should do to improve. Thank you.

Simply, I was stating that the training that was quoted in the linked article isn't possible to complete for some cyclists. This is important to note, because those who are unable to do it maybe unduly concerned, or hurt themself in the process.

I can't specifically recall a post I have made suggesting that 3-min sprint intervals (which wouldn't actually be sprints) should be used to increase VO2 max.

Five things a cyclist should do to improve are, in no particular order

1) Carefully plan their training (or have someone plan it for them)

2) Be consistent in their training (e.g., it's better to train regularly rather than sporadically)

3) Set goals that are SMART (or get someone to help them set SMART goals)

4) Eat well (good nutrition)

5) Get the required rest that is needed to allow yourself to train to the best of your ability within the timeframe and constraints that you have in your life

Ric

ric_stern/RST · #11 11-11.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenchyge

Sure, I've found Ric's advice (posts on this forum, as well as his cyclingnews.com article) to be very helpful, either as tips or as research-based support for de-bunking cycling 'myths.'

Thanks. Glad myself and the other RST coaches can help

Quote:

I won't try to put words in his mouth, but I would certainly understand if he chose to reserve his best coaching tips for the riders who pay for his coaching services (I'm not personally one of those people, btw). As far as his efforts toward 'keeping things in line' on this forum, I think that helps keep the quality of the advice on this forum fairly high in most cases, and if that's how he saw his role as a moderator here, then I would certainly understand that as well.

This website/forum, is a great resource for cyclists that the RST Coaches and some other great people help to maintain. I think it's important to keep the quality high (which is one reason why it's such a great resource).

Quote:

The quantity of his posts has decreased over the past couple months, but I won't speculate whether that's due to specific circumstances on his part, or whether the other posters seem to be handling the discussions competently on their own without his input.

It goes in cycles -- my post count has decreased a little recently, but that's due to being very busy. It's also because we have some other great people helping out here. However, i do pop in here at least once a day and try to respond to something that is important (e.g., this thread).

Cheers
Ric

ric_stern/RST · #12 11-11.-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoawhoa

I don't think he ever has or ever would say that only 3 min intervals is the way to improve vo2max. I know I've read that he suggests intervals from 3-8 minutes as the best way to improve v02max.

spot on :-). although to keep things on track with this thread, i did some nice 30 sec on/30 sec off intervals yesterday, which were around ~100 - 110% of MAP.

Quote:

And yes, he says a lot of stuff is wrong or misleading, but every time he seems to have the bulk of evidence, as well as common sense, on his side.

Busting the myths...

ric

Eldrack · #13 11-11.-2005

Couple of articles you might find interesting:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0896.htm

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0297.htm

These seem to give off slightly different messages but the same general idea. Also they are written for runners but can easily be done by cyclist by replacing vVO2 max with MAP.

RipVanCommittee · #14 11-12.-2005

[QUOTE=ric_stern/RST]As a word of 'warning' if you read this paper, it may not be possible for people to complete any of these 30-second intervals, depending on how much power they can produce.

Whilst, i haven't read the paper thoroughly, it does appear that the 30-sec intervals are 175% of the peak power output (PPO) obtained in a test similar to the RST MAP test.

Funny....I was going to comment that the more I read from Ric, the smarter he seems......

I fall squarely in that category. According to the test protocol, my PPOX1.75 is 665W. My max 30 sec. effort for all of last year was 580W....

So, the big question: Obviously, the 30 second power needs help, and I found the study pretty interesting--so do you think that the intervals would have the same effect if they were simply done at may 30 second power?? I'll probably do them anyway, even if they don't help pVo2, since I'm guessing that they'll help my anaerobic power. As an aside, I'll say that I was previously doing AC intervals at 1:50-2:00 (due to a 2 minute hill being near my house). It ends up not helping short (30-60 sec.) power at all, at least for me. What they seem to really help is my pVo2 power.
Hence, these 30 second intervals are of great appeal to me--but I'm subbing one of my vo2 workouts a week with this workout.

Any thoughts??

Thanks!

biker-linz · #15 11-12.-2005

FWIW, it sounds like this is the study Asker might be referring to:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=10331896

and by extension:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12439086

It's worth bearing in mind that PPO is determined slightly differently to MAP, and would be a fair bit lower.

However, I wonder if what the OP was initially hinting at might have been this kind of thing:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11354523

L.

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