I've been working on creating a new set of rides for my club ("A" rides). We now have ~10-12 riders that go on these rides, designed to be longer (40-60 miles), higher paced rides (e.g., 20-25mph). Some of the rides have had a lot of climbing and others have been mostly flat. After looking at some of my workout files, I have concluded that flat rides with such a group are basically lousy workouts. The problem is that even if the pulls are at 300-400w, they are too short and the power required when drafting is only ~200w. So, net-net, the rides are fast but it's hard to get an average power much over 200w and the 300w+ intervals are too short (<5 mins) to provide much of a workout. In the future, I plan to design the rides to include at least ~3K' of climbing, with as many long climbs as possible. It will mean the group gets spread out on the climbs with a re-group at the top, but at least everybody can get a good workout. I'd be interested in what others who are responsible for planning their club's "A" rides do about this problem.

One of the first things a racer sees after getting a power meter!

If the riders have goals and a training plan (racers) then ride a lot of hills and keep the group small (4). Or, split the group into small echelons (3-4). Most will train alone.

For touring groups: Let them ride in a group as it keeps things social and fun.

There seems to be a lot of interest in these rides, so I hate to turn people away. Some know they will be dropped but come along anyway because they want to ride the longer, more challenging route. In fact, some will probably form an "A-" ride that will follow the same route but a little slower. I agree about the hills. It's about the only way to break the group up and permit the more fit riders to get a good workout. Fortunately, I have lots of climbing route options. I don't know what I'd do if I lived in a flat part of the country.

We have a main club ride that works for that, with a sweeper and all. But, I'm trying to fill another need, for a longer, faster ride. I just want the more fit riders to be able to get in a reasonable workout (if they choose to).

The stronger riders could take longer pulls aka the typical team time trial strategy - is the terrain/road traffic preventing this?

One of the preferred flat routes (2 lanes w/ almost no shoulder) is a little dangerous for rotations, so longer pulls is actually a good thing. The problem is that even with longer pulls, the aggregate workload is still pretty low with 10-12 riders. I've thought about upping the pace to ~400w on front, but a lot of guys can't do that. So, the pace would be all over the place, from ~300-400w, depending on who was in front. Long climbs are good because everybody can climb at his own pace and then just re-group at the top. Fortunately, I have routes with semi-long climbs (e.g., 3-5 miles). But, that's all I can think of to have a ride of this size be both fun and a good workout for those who want it.

How many sprints are in the route? They won't do much for your average power output, but short, high intensity efforts are a good way to keep things interesting without splitting the group up as much as long climbs.

There are a few places where we could have a sprint, but the route we used this past weekend is ~45 miles on a 2-lane road with narrow shoulders. I agree with you that sprints would add a little variety to the rides, but I'd like to figure out a way to increase the total ride intensity. It may not be possible for a group this size on flat routes -- just too much drafting advantage.

Why not make the ride longer?

There are several ways to do this given your constraints with a little cooperation from the riders - make a game of it and mix in some skills. Split the group into mini groups and practice bridging - one rider solo off the front, then half up, then every one else. Rotate two groups, one up the road, one back a bit. First rider in the back group bridges to the front group. Rider who wants to work a bit in front group then drops back. Now a rider from the back group bridges up, repeat. A couple of riders off the back, then have others drop back and help them pace up. Lots of stuff to do, but this requires good communication beforehand about what everyone is doing. That may be too much structure for a social ride so you'll have to see what folks are up to doing.

If this is a group of race-oriented riders, you could try the concept of "attack zones" where you declare several stretches of varying length a race period to a certain point. These basically turn into mini-races, which would probably yield plenty of l4/5/6 time.

Well, I can do that occasionally but you begin to run into problems when the rides are longer than ~3 hrs (some guys like to save at least 1/2 of the day for the family). I'm thinking I'll just be sure to include ~2500+ feet of climbing on each ride. Fortunately, I have an awesome route just right for it (out to Lake Mead and back via Boulder City -- ~4.5 mile climb), which I can extend by going all the way down to Hoover Dam and back up to Boulder City -- ~8 miles of climbing. I wish I had more routes like that one, for variety. Of course, once I introduce my new front hub with wireless variable resistance (from 0-100w) I'll just dial in whatever I want when I'm drafting.

That's a good idea. I do have a couple of candidates for rabbits to send off the front, and it would be good for some of the riders to learn to work efficiently in a chase group.

Rap

We almost always follow the hilly method and regroup at the top. The only time we have a hard workout on the flat is either motor pacing (fast) or when one or two of the strongest riders put it in the gutter (assuming some wind) and then put in long hard turns at the front - then I can assure you that we all suffer like dogs. Once a gap opens in front of you you are obliged to jump it for the sake of the rider behind you before pulling out and dying on the roadside.

RDO,
one question: is your goal to improve the workout for everyone (or most of the group) or yourself? Not that's there anything wrong with maximizing your own w/o time as indicated by your power files ...

rmur

A question first, then a comment. What's your NP for these rides?

Secondly, a group ride is only as hard as the riders in it. If you want it harder, be more aggressive and tell everyone else to be aggressive. Find areas with short-ish (1 or 2 mile) right hand loops with cut throughs and use those areas to put the hammer down. People will be way more willing to thrash themselves if they know they can use a cut through to catch back on and do a couple more loops. Invite people who kick your ass. Once you're struggling to hang on, I think you'll change your opinion of fast group rides. They're one of my favorite ways to get in L3/4 work.