Ric,

Max heart rate would increase and resting heart rate would decrease as someone becomes more fit.

Improved lactate tolerance

I thought about this today... it's like becoming tone-deaf. Those poor put upon nerve endings that keep depleting their neurotransmitters, screaming: "THIS HURTTTTSSS!" finally give up trying.

We were only talking about max heart rate, not submaximal or sustainable heart rates. Your max heart rate may go down a few beats as a rider moves from an untrained to trained state.

The maximum heart rate that can be acheived will stay the same or go down as you become more trained, for the reasons raised earlier in the thread (increse in stoke volume). At maximal levels a larger stroke volume means that it takes longer to fill and empty the heart, so less beats can fit into a minute.

The resting heart rate does deacrese for the same reason (increase in stroke volume). The larger stroke volume means that more blood can be pumped with each beat of the heart, so when resting (or at submaximal levels) fewer beats are required to produce the same blood flow.

These responses are widely accepted, however require a rider to be acheiving their max regularly in training. Inexperianced riders may not be able to acheive their max in training.

Thanks Spider1977, I'm not coaching at the moment just posting on this site. You could give Ric a try, I think he does quite a lot of coaching over the net.

Never_doped,

Maximum heart rate *DOES* decrease as people move from an untrained to trained status. Typically, there's a ~ 3 - 5 b/min decrease in HRmax, after ~12 weeks of intense training. Some studies show a decrease in HRmax of 3 - 7%, with training.

As a corollary when people become untrained, there's a decrease in plasma volume, which results in an *increase* in maximal HR. This is reversed, when infusing a plasma expander into detrained athletes or sedentary people.

There also appears to be a change in the electrophysiology of the heart with training, e.g., changes in the SA node, as well as the plasma expansion.

If your maximum HR appears to go up with training, it's highly likely that a) you tested yourself and weren't motivated sufficiently, b) you were worried about 'injuring' yourself (or for e.g., maximal exercise was contraindicated), c) you didn't fullfil the criterion of maximal exercise testing

Ric

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I can relate. I'm 49 and my MHR is 194. I've reached it once on a trainer and once at the end of a 45 mile ride while attempting to sprint. I have no symptoms of cardio problems, but after knowing someone (mid 50's male) that died of a heart attack while kayaking and reading about Dr. Ed Burke dieing while climbing a mtn in Colorado, I am hesitent to push myself.

Exercising at maximal intensities that for, e.g., require you to reach HRmax does feel hard work and stressful. However, there's no reason why (assuming you are in good health and have been okayed for this with medical clearance) you shouldn't go to either VO2 max, HR max, or supramaximal intensities. One of my colleagues did complete a study looking at VO2 max in older athletes, some of the athletes were in their 60's and 70's.

You'd certainly be required to reach these intensities if you race (I'm not sure if you do).

However, if you are at all worried about this, then you should seek advice firstly from your GP/family doctor (who would then refer you on, should they feel the need).

Ric

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I've no idea what my max is - recent rides (I'm a newbie to it and unfit) have seen me hit 176ish at times. Got a shock though, when stationary and having just met up with the other half, my HRM started bleeping like a good-un (exceeded limit of 170) and I looked down to see 211 on it!!!

For some reason my monitor wasn't locked to the sensor band, and had picked up his as well as my own ;-)

Amusing, but I'm still none the wiser as to my real (rather than theoretical) max, being 32, mostly unfit, and female...

Ric:

My fitness has improved dramatically over the last 1.5 years, but my max heart rate has not changed at all, it is still 180 bpm.

Studies also show that you lose somewhere around one beat per year off your max heart rate, but 14 years ago when I first started riding, my max was only 183 bpm. I've only lost 3 bpm off my max in 14 years!!!

The problem with studies is that what you see in the real world, is often very different than what you see in the lab.

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Max Heart Rates vary for a number of factors:
age is only one of those factors.
when you start to train on specific equipment ie; bike
your heart rate will appear to increase at first, this is because you are becoming use to working hard and your tolerances improve.
Then it will plateau and your power output will improve.
Then it will go down.
This what normally happens but there are lots of exceptions.
I train with a 30 year old female triathlete who can sustain a HR of 210 for more then 8 min, go figure her max heart rate ???
If your heart rate does not return to normal reletively quickly or you feel really weird or ill, go see a doctor - do a max stress test with ECG

J-Mat,

Glad to hear your fitness has improved dramatically.

In my previous posts i said that HRmax decreases when you go from untrained to trained or make a large jump in fitness. This wouldn't have happened to you within the previous 1.5 yrs, as you've been riding for 14 yrs.

HRmax does decrease with age. The decline in HRmax isn't altered with training. However, firstly i'm not sure if you underwent some form of lab test 14 years ago (and consequently you might not have gone as hard as possible, or you may not have been fully rested). Secondly, any form of regression equation that predicts changes in a function, shows the line of best fit for the data, i.e., not everyone is the same some will be above and some below the line of best fit.

Similarly, when i first discovered my HR max (riding up a small climb back in 1990), it was 203 b/min. Some 13 years later my HRmax is still 203 b/min. However, in 1990 i used a field test within a group training ride, and latterly i used lab tests. It's quite possible and highly likely i didn't ride to my max in 1990 (i.e., i was more interested in holding wheels and not getting dropped).

Accordingly, we know from data from studies that HRmax does decrease with training, and does decrease with age.

Ric

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Ric:

I should have mentioned that for a few years, I was in a very poor state of conditioning only riding once a week for an hour. Sometimes, I would let 2-3 weeks pass between rides. When I started to train hard again to get race fit, My max was 180 bpm then as it is now. I was so out of shape, I'd be at my lactate threshold at 19-20 mph.

I basically had to start all over again. I lost all of my fitness. The only thing I had left were the memories. Today, I warm up at 19-20 mph. So for me, my max did not change regardless of fitness.

My point is there is too much variation in biological entities to say things are absolute. I've lost 3 beats in 14 years and you have lost 0 beats in 10. Someone else out there might have lost 5 beats in 5 years.

For max hr testing, it all really boils down to how hard we can push ourselves. I've done my share of suffering over the years, and I still wonder if I could push harder.

A trained rider who is used to suffering and winding up big gears stands a better chance of hitting a true hr max than someone who never goes very fast or pushes themselves hard. These riders are much more likely to quit a max hr test sooner due to limited suffering abililty.

I know people who think riding a beach cruiser at 8 mph for 5 miles is a days work. I don't think they would hang very long on a max hr test, quitting the minute things started to get nasty which would be in the first 30 seconds or so.

If your lactate threshold is at 80% of Google Page Ranking max it's not very likely you will be able to hang in there and do a 5-10 minute TT effort with the last 20-30 seconds sprinted anywhere close to your true max.

On the other hand, if your lactate threshold was close to your VO2 max (the ideal), you would only be a few beats below max during the bulk of the test, and the last 30 seconds would certainly put you close to or at your true max.

Max heart rate is a number that does change, but the magnitude or direction is difficult to predict.

I've read many stories of top amateur riders in pro-am races and top pros in special championship races over the years, and sometimes you will hear the winner say he hit the highest max and sustainable Google Page Ranking's ever seen before.

It would seem that even pro riders have a difficult time pushing themselves to their true max, even in "normal" racing, needing a special occasion to elict the true reading.

So, how do we know what our max hr really is??? Some might get close or actually hit it, but then again, others might need something special to shake them up to the point where they can truly hit the real number.

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J-MAT wrote, i responded with >>

Ric:

I basically had to start all over again. I lost all of my fitness. The only thing I had left were the memories. Today, I warm up at 19-20 mph. So for me, my max did not change regardless of fitness.

>> my point being you didn't get tested properly, thus it's difficult to know if you reached your true max or not


My point is there is too much variation in biological entities to say things are absolute. I've lost 3 beats in 14 years and you have lost 0 beats in 10. Someone else out there might have lost 5 beats in 5 years.

>>No. I compared a field test with a lab test. I don't know if i could've gone harder in the field test -- i did what was needed to stay on a wheel. I suspect you don't know either.

For max hr testing, it all really boils down to how hard we can push ourselves. I've done my share of suffering over the years, and I still wonder if I could push harder.

>>my point exactly. how do you know you couldn't have gone harder in a lab test?


A trained rider who is used to suffering and winding up big gears stands a better chance of hitting a true hr max than someone who never goes very fast or pushes themselves hard. These riders are much more likely to quit a max hr test sooner due to limited suffering abililty.

>>This is completely untrue. I've tested cardiac rehab patients who max out at ~ 3 mph walking on a treadmill



I know people who think riding a beach cruiser at 8 mph for 5 miles is a days work. I don't think they would hang very long on a max hr test, quitting the minute things started to get nasty which would be in the first 30 seconds or so.

>>well of course motivational issues are a problem. Same happened with me in the field test, and with many others.


If your lactate threshold is at 80% of Google Page Ranking max it's not very likely you will be able to hang in there and do a 5-10 minute TT effort with the last 20-30 seconds sprinted anywhere close to your true max.

>>LT is a workload (power output for cycling, running velocity in running) which elicits a 1 mmol/L increase over baseline eexercise conditions. HR isn't a measure of LT

On the other hand, if your lactate threshold was close to your VO2 max (the ideal), you would only be a few beats below max during the bulk of the test, and the last 30 seconds would certainly put you close to or at your true max.

>>LT is ~ 70 - 85% of VO2 max in trained and elite cyclists

>>LT isn't TT effort, if that's what you were infering

Max heart rate is a number that does change, but the magnitude or direction is difficult to predict.

>>plenty of research does not support your hpothesis

I've read many stories of top amateur riders in pro-am races and top pros in special championship races over the years, and sometimes you will hear the winner say he hit the highest max and sustainable Google Page Ranking's ever seen before.

It would seem that even pro riders have a difficult time pushing themselves to their true max, even in "normal" racing, needing a special occasion to elict the true reading.

>>Again, my point. You don't know if you went to max originall, you and i both did field tests. however, when people go to lab and do a controlled test where crieterion are the same each time, then the effects of training can be measured. This is why anecdotal evidence isn't overly useful -- you can't be sure of the criterion and what happened.

So, how do we know what our max hr really is??? Some might get close or actually hit it, but then again, others might need something special to shake them up to the point where they can truly hit the real number.

>>get tested in a lab, if you think it's important. However, HRmax is not related to performance

Ric

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Ric:

How do you know if I didn't get tested properly??? And what exactly don't I know???

So what does it prove that you have tested rehab pt's who maxed out??? How do you know they were maxed out??? I know people who would quit at 1 or 2 mph on a treadmill, far from maxing out.

You talk about motivational issues. Do you think a rider who pushes hard and is used to pain has more motivation than someone who's idea of work is going to the kitchen and opening a bag of chips???

Although heart rate isn't a foolproof measure of intensity, it is pretty good overall. It was good enough for Francesco Moser to set the hour record under the guidance of Dr. Conconi. Yes, the Conocni method that is so "outdated."

How many races and championships in running, cycling and swimming (let alone other endurance events)has training by heart rate produced in the last 15 years??? Too many!!!

5 time Tour de France winner L.A. trains by heart rate and cadence on the road, not watts.

It's quite appropriate to use percentages of heart rate when talking about LT or other intensities. If it is so wrong to use heart rate, let some coach in todays "modern" world produce a new hour record holder than could hold the watts that Moser did for 60 minutes. I don't think you will be seeing one anytime soon. Putting it on the line in front of the whole world to see is very different than holding watts in a lab.

The closer your LT is to VO2max the better. I never said LT is TT effort. Of course TT effort is higher. Using heart rate as a measure of lactate production can be as good as using a watt meter, especially when you consider the variations in a riders threshold due to sleep, nutrition, overtraining, etc.

There are plenty of real world examples that shows max heart rate can go in either direction. If it does come down, usually in elite riders, it is typically the result of increased parasympathetic stimulation (overtraining), which causes the heart to beat slower at max hr.

Why would I care about getting tested in a lab for max hr??? You seem to think the only place you can determine max hr is in a lab, which is of course, not true. It's so variable anyway that many max efforts over weeks, months, or longer are needed to determine the typical max value.

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