The Lifting Apologists.... - Page 3

In fact, sports science a.k.a. exercise physiology a.k.a. work physiology is practically as old as modern physiology itself.

I submit that in a forum titled "cycling training", the way you keep score is how you perform in races. Anything else is really more appropriate for, e.g., the usenet newsgroup rec.fitness.miscellaneous (or Bicycling magazine).

Then tell people "training" for a century or a charity ride to STFU and go somewhere else? Success for them is finishing, having a good time, and they may not want to sacrifice all their other fitness benchmarks. Maybe they want to race in some local crits but also run 10ks from time to time. Maybe they want to be able to still bench press their weight. It is not "racing forum" The "pro racers" are not posting on an internet chat forum nor accepting advice from posters, so you may want to keep yourself in perspective.

I agree, but I was responding to the bowling comment. Nobody is bowling for fitness. With respect to recreational athletes, the converse is true as well. The rec rider has to recover from intense cycling workouts as well. I tend to ride 4 days a week and lift 2 days. I tend not to have real recovery problems from either sessions. If I road six days, I might have recovery problems as well.

And medicine is as old as Hippocrates, so even civil war era doctors were building on almost 2000 plus years of "knowledge." Do you think their knowledge at the time was complete and they had nothing else to learn? If your that confident that knowledge is static, grab you circa 1980 sports science books and train according to those principles without any incorporation of the last 26 years. Or seek out a physician who brags that he hasn't had to learn anything new since 1980 because knowledge was complete then.

My point was simply that sport science is a lot older than you seem to think.

If you have to train (no quotes necessary) to achieve a particular goal, then I think the way to "keep score" is whether or not you achieve that particular goal, not, e.g., how you look while doing so (although I'm sure many triathletes will disagree with me! ).

BTW, who said anything about pro racers (again, no quotes needed).

The question isn't how many days you ride, but rather:

- how many days you ride intense (aiming at pushing your own limits).
- What return do you get on time invested to train intense
- What return do you get on time invested weight lifting
- What if you were not weight lifting and using this time to better recover from a more intense cycling training regiment.

Again, I'm neutral on weight lifting impact on cycling performances. And I don't know you. So I'm not argumenting, just explaining my earlier post.

To clarify, when i and Andy C (and others) bang on about the weights not being much use, we do clarify it with: in terms of endurance cycling performance in trained cyclists. Thus, those who aren't doing cycle racing or aren't trained cyclists needn't listen to that advice (although, even if they are 'only' doing a charity ride, the best way of getting fit for cycling is cycling).

and, by, and large the *majority* of people in this forum are racers who want to know how to get faster. But, it's not exclusively for racers - the forum is for anyone who wants to know about cycle training

Ric "i couldn't bench press 10 kg, let along my body weight"

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Look, I don't think anyone is missing the point. I don't think anyone here thinks that resistance training is inherently evil. I do it, and I recommend it for several others. I happen to think that for some athletes, it can actually provide an indirect benefit, with low cost (a while back I had a back and forth w/Ric about this--involving weed-pulling and moving boxes...no sense dragging THAT up again.....).

The issue is when people claim that it provides a direct benefit to endurance cycling performance--which just simply isn't true.

P.S. I'm amazed that people think that pro cyclists have 'unlimited training time'. I have news for folks--if you're training, you aren't recovering. Everyone is under time constraints, even full-time pros. That's why even 40 minutes of resistance training is "low" cost....not "no" cost....

To clarify even further: I generally don't offer it as advice, but simply as information. What people choose to do with/as a result of that information is up to them.

Found this on velonews and it serves as a bit of a case in point:


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Why can't I climb?

Dear Joe,
I'm a recreational roadie who spends some time on a mountain bike as well. I've been actively riding for four years. I put in 100-150 miles a week, with mostly mixed rides - by virtue of living in remote Wyoming, I don't get many flat, easy spins!

Here is my challenge. I feel fit, but I cannot climb hills. I'm 5'11", approximately 160 pounds, resting HR of 44, no chronic illness, and I can't ride up hills! I do well on the flats between any rises, which means I make my pulls when riding with a group, I can spin around 22-24 mph, and am reasonably comfortable at that pace for many miles. But as soon as the pitch increases I shut down.

My primary riding partner, an ex-pro, has quizzed me about what my body feels like when this happens. Basically, I shut down. I don't feel pain, but I cannot continue riding at a strong pace. My muscles feel like they are not getting enough oxygen and my RR goes very high (never measured). I slow down to a slower pace, and push hard to the top - once there, I can pick my pace back up and have to fight to get back to a group. This has not improved, even with many miles on my bike and with consistent riding.

So, do I just need to train differently (strength, cardio), eat differently (change my intake before riding), hydrate differently, lose weight, or is there some underlying cardiovascular issue that could predispose me to being a sloth on the hills?

Thanks for taking a stab.

J.R. in Wyoming

Dear J.R.,
Your inability to climb well can be improved if you find the key limiter and incorporate an objective plan to improve your fitness in progressive stages.

In most cases cyclists looking to climb better need to improve force and muscular endurance. You first need to have sufficient force in order to push hard on the pedals as the grade of the road increases. Ideally, the force-specific workouts are started within the preparation phase and end within the base phase. You can build force in the weight room with a cycling-specific routine and periodized program. Force can also be developed on the bike with low rpm (below 70 rpm), seated hill (or headwind) efforts. If you do force work on the bike, begin with two-minute efforts and progress, over several weeks, to six-minute intervals with full recoveries. Staying seated will also develop your hip flexors, which can help your climbing economy. Be cautious with these intervals if you have knee issues, or do not do them at all.

After you have developed sufficient force you can start to incorporate muscular endurance workouts by starting with six-minute intervals at heart-rate zone 3 (10-15 percent below lactate threshold). Gradually increase the number of reps within a workout over several weeks. Your goal is to progress to one solid effort of 45-60 minutes of zone 3 intensity. Once you have reached this goal, develop a workout once a week that incorporates heart-rate zone 4 (within 10 beats of lactate threshold) into six-minute intervals, with two-minute recoveries. This will dramatically improve your climbing ability if you have first developed force, economy and muscular endurance.

You need to determine which basic ability is lacking and what level of intensity you need to emphasize. The best way to improve your climbing is with a program that covers many months, starting with a preparation phase, moving to a base phase, and ending with a build period.

You mention body weight as a possible limiter. While I'm sure losing a few pounds might help, I don't think your 2.2 pounds per inch of body weight (you are 5'11" and 160 pounds) is of major concern. Assuming endurance is not an issue, and you have problems on climbs even early in a ride, this leaves the possibilities of economy (skills), force and muscular endurance to improve.

Thanks for inquiring with us. Good luck with your training.

Dirk Friel
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Note the reader specifically asked Friel for advice on how to climb better - not how to be more well-rounded, or less "one-dimensional" (whatever that means). Also said individual had been riding for several years consistently - as opposed to a couch potato who just jumped on a bike one day.

The section I put in italics is particularly revealing - he is saying that the rider needs to develop enough force to pedal up hills when we all know such forces are very low.

it *is* evil. or at least it was when i dropped some weights on my foot once.

i'm moving house again soon (i hope). i dunno, i guess i move once every 5 years. seems like overkill doing weights for that. oh! hang on a second the removal men actually lift our belongings, and they don't look like they've been near a gym in their life.

as for weed pulling... even my arthritic fingers can pull weeds, without doing weights. actually, the best thing i've found to keep my fingers and wrist mobile is playing the guitar (generally, very badly).

ric

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Can we start a lifting forum or something. Oh, and a max HR forum. Then the 3 or 4 of us left can get on blissfully unaware.

True dat. Maybe someday we'll get back to a coaching model where coaches train riders how to race - not just be fit.

It never ceases to amaze me that the current crop of virtual cycling coaches who jumped in over the last decade never see, ride or race with their clients. Coaching by email, downloaded files and an occasional phone call works for experienced P12 riders but not other cats. No doubt virtual coaching clients will get very fit and perform better but they will also get their ass waxed by a smarter cagier less-fit rider every time in mass start events.

Just my 2 pesos