The Lifting Apologists.... - Page 4

Have you given any thought to how lifting could improve your guitar playing??

Funny, I had a similar weight room experience--but it involved me dropping a 50 lb. plate on my wife's foot!

As I said---LOW cost (well, for me, at least....)

well, it couldn't make it any worse. (well it could, but that because i wouldn't have time if i did any weights)

i bet that made her happy, or not!

ric

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http://www.cyclecoach.com

ummm....not really!

This couldn't be more OT (sorry)--but if you want to improve your guitar playing, just copy this guy : http://youtube.com/watch?v=FqBlpd4mxAA

OK, back to cycling......

not bad... but Django did it with only half a hand!

and, like, if i could manage one bar like that, i'd be a happy bunny.

ric

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http://www.cyclecoach.com

Ric,
I've seen several of your posts where you say a "fit cyclist" doesn't need weight training. I haven't seen any literature that conclusively proves the problem with weight training one way or another. If you know of some scientific articles that really prove the point, I'd love to read them. I guess that really depends on the definition of "fit". I spend every season trying to become stronger and more fit than the preceeding season. Don't we all?

But it makes sense that some reasonable core strength training is useful for cyclists. For example, cycling doesn't strengthen the abdominal muscles very efficiently. Yet, when you're on the drops you're pushing against your abs, similar to how a recumbant rider pushes against the back of his/her seat. The abs also help support your back and take pressure off of your hands and shoulders. So it makes sense to do some basic strength building off the bike, especially during the off season.

You can't possiblly argue that all forms of cross training hinders performance. Even if we limit the discussion to just weight/resistance training. Part of the benifit of resistance training is stronger tendons and supporting muscles & tissues. Anyone who's ever had an IT-band injury (and understood it's cause) will tell you how important strong supporting tissue is. Of course, I'm not suggesting all weight training programs are equivalent, but there has to be a way to use it (like any other form of cross training) to benifit cycling.

??

When I'm in the drops I use my abdominal muscles for one thing, and only one thing: to breathe.

I think there's some great cross training available to cyclists. If you're a road racer or TTer, then some great cross training could be MTB, Cyclo X or track. These would be the best forms of cross training.

I've said that weight training doesn't increase endurance cycling performance in trained cyclists, which it doesn't. this is shown in several papers, and via first principles.

There isn't *any* research showing that weight training increases ECP in trained cyclists (but some research in untrained people).

i spend every season hoping to get more aerobically powerful. i've never thought or cared about getting stronger as 1) my daily life/work/etc doesn't depend on maximal force production, and 2) my cycling isn't dependent upon maximal force production either.

I coach up to 20 cyclists at anyone time. in those last 8 years, the only people who have injured themself is via rider/road, or rider/car interaction. This applies to me, and my friends who also cycle.

on the other hand, i have a couple of friends who don't cycle but workout in the gym with weights and they're always injuring themself.

actually, one rider i coach did injure himself. but that involved him not following my training and *hugely* stepping up the training due to sudden good weather. i think he tried to quadruple his normal training hours in one week, and ended up with a sore back, sore underneath, and sore muscles, which involved him seeing a physio. a more gentle step up in training ensued.

ric

__________________
http://www.cyclecoach.com

Happened to me this week and its turning out to be a huge setback for my cycling goals as I have not been able to train on the spin bike and probably will not be able ride this weekend.

As you say I have a lot of injuries because of the risk of progressive lifting. I know very few people train with this type of load, but to be progressive with the resistance load there is risk involved. I pay special attention to my form and technique, but injuries still happen.

Most significant injuries that have occured in the past 6 years.

Muscle strain/torn fibers:
2 on my right quadricep
2 on my left quadricep
2 on my right hamstring
2 on my left hamstring

Other injuries:
rotator cuff
2 times inflamed/bulging disc (1 occured this past Monday - current rehab)

I feel pretty blessed because I have friends that have had far worse. Like torn pectorals or rotator cuff injuries that required surgery.

My one significant bike injury so far was with the pavement typical road rash with a hematoma that had to be drained 3 times, but I was able to continue riding during recovery.

if i have deided to lift as i think that i am a very scrawnt guy and i need some muscle bulk to protect me when i crash/in sprints etc would anyone give me some advice i.e.

best to lift straight after riding or later in the day or on a non training day?
what to do currently i do 3x12 dips, lat pull doen chest press seated row and 2x12 leg press and leg curl then 1x30 single legg press single leg curl and shoulder press

then some abdo work and stuff on the core ball

hows that?

[QUOTE=Lucy_Aspenwind]
I lift weights cuz Carmichael said so [sic], or Lance does, or the Friel guy thinks you oughta [sic], or my buddy’s coach told me to, etc.

Why do these people continue to espouse these views in light of no real evidence in favor of lifting weights and quite a bit to the contrary?

/QUOTE]

Beside Ric saying lifting weights doesnt do any good, it might help if someone of CC or LA status came out and said "I dont ever lift weights". If I were you I'd let it go..........each to his/her own. Are you the lawyer guy trying to sell the plastic bikes from Korea? Your posts sound alot like him, and it appears he has vanished or taken on a new ID.

i think you'll find others say the same, with the same caveats that i come up with.

i thought Lucy was a female.

ric

__________________
http://www.cyclecoach.com

You can't be serious!

First, your abdominal muscles have nothing to do with your breathing. Your diaphragm is the muscle involved with your breathing. Since your diaphragm is composed of smooth muscle and not skeletal muscle, it doesn’t even fit into this discussion.





Second, your abdominal muscles are the counter-lever to your legs. It’s simple physics. Remember Newton’s Third Law? When you go on the drops you’re decreasing the angle between your legs and your trunk (which includes your abs) which increases the opposing force to your legs (remember that force is composed of vector components) and thus directs more of that energy into the pedals. That’s why people produce more power on the drops.

What?

I'm afraid that I am.

Sorry, but you're wrong: contraction of the abdominal muscles forces the abdominal contents inward and upward, thus aiding in exhalation. Anybody can prove this to themselves by placing their hand on their stomach and feeling the abs contract when blowing out in a quick, forceful burst.

BTW, the diaphragm is a skeletal muscle (albeit a specialized one), not a smooth muscle. Moreover, the inter- and intracostal muscles, which also aid in ventilation, are also skeletal muscles.

Except perhaps when sprinting, your upper body mass alone is sufficient to counteract the forces applied to the pedals, such that no active contraction of upper body musculature is required to keep you in the saddle (although, e.g., your back muscles tend to work a little to keep you from bobbing too much). Again, this is obvious from the fact that many people have a hard time not collapsing onto the stem if they take their hands off of the handlebars and try to ride that way for an extended period of time. If, as you claim, the upward force vector on the torso was so great that abdominal muscle contraction was required to prevent "take off", then letting go of the handlebars would cause you to ride up out of the saddle, not fall down/forward off of it.

One other point: the contraction of upper body muscles can add to power output only to the extent that the hip/pelvis move in space. That joint isn't completely stationary with respect to the crank/b.b., but it is essentially so, such that even when sprinting (and thus really yanking on the handlebars, etc.), >90% of the power is still generated by the lower limbs.

You just pegged one of my biggest complaints about Carmichael. He (like you) site "recent research", but fails to site it. I'm a scientist so I appreciate references, since they can help solidify one's argument. Unfortunately, It seems that most people wave their hands when it comes to giving evidence for their argument, so let me demonstate what a reference is supposed to look like.

Izquierdo M et al. J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Feb;17(1):129-39. "These data indicate that strength training results in a significant improvement in maximal and submaximal endurance during the first 8 weeks of strength training in both age groups." The paper does state it depends on the conditioning of the subject, so that supports your argument that the fittness of the subject is important. My problem is, I don't know if I'm "fit/trained" by the standards of this study or the ones you refer to, so why not use weight training to help me. If I'm not "fit/trained" I'll benifit. If I am "fit/trained," wieght training won't hurt me unless I put on unnecessary weight.

If you know of a paper that contradicts this one I'd like to read it.

I think you just inadvertently made the best point about weight/resistance training. I've done weight training for 12 years and I've never been injured. Yet when I took up running I was injured in the first 6 months. The difference was my coaching. Sticking to a WELL DESIGNED program is just as important in weight training as it is in cycling. It's crucial to progress slowly in weight training since tendons don't grow as quickly as muscle. I will conceed that cycling is more forgiving when someone overdoes it, though.