The Lifting Apologists.... - Page 5

BtonRider · #61 11-08.-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

>90% of the power is still generated by the lower limbs.

Obviously the power is GENERATED in the legs but I'm talking about power transfer. I have a simple experiment for you to do to prove that the angle of the torso affects the efficiency of pedaling. Adjust your stem and handlebars so you're riding as upright as possible and measure your power output in a sprint. Then adjust everything so you're in a "good" position and repeat. I guarantee (if you put everything out in both cases) you'll put more power to the pedals when your torso-hip angle is smaller (to the limit of optimum physical performance) to parallel with the ground.

If you're really going all out you're probably holding the bars tightly and tightning up your entire torso (front and back) to create more leverage. Again simple physics.

If you want to take your hands off the bars when you're in that position and see that your body is being pushed upwards, feel free.

ric_stern/RST · #62 11-08.-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by BtonRider

Izquierdo M et al. J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Feb;17(1):129-39. "These data indicate that strength training results in a significant improvement in maximal and submaximal endurance during the first 8 weeks of strength training in both age groups." The paper does state it depends on the conditioning of the subject, so that supports your argument that the fittness of the subject is important. My problem is, I don't know if I'm "fit/trained" by the standards of this study or the ones you refer to, so why not use weight training to help me. If I'm not "fit/trained" I'll benifit. If I am "fit/trained," wieght training won't hurt me unless I put on unnecessary weight.

oh! and i didn't say i was citing and then not.

there's some papers cited on my cyclingnews article, which i dont have the link to at present. but search the fitness area.

there's also first principles as presented (i think) in the sticky gym thread at the top of the page.

not looked at that paper (yet). untrained or low fitness people will improve aerobic fitness with weights (or any exercise), but trained won't. Trained cyclists refers to people who are say 3rd or 4th cat and above.

in the less trained cyclists even though weights will improve you, you'll still get a better effect from cycling.

ric

acoggan · #63 11-08.-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by BtonRider

Obviously the power is GENERATED in the legs but I'm talking about power transfer. I have a simple experiment for you to do to prove that the angle of the torso affects the efficiency of pedaling. Adjust your stem and handlebars so you're riding as upright as possible and measure your power output in a sprint. Then adjust everything so you're in a "good" position and repeat. I guarantee (if you put everything out in both cases) you'll put more power to the pedals when your torso-hip angle is smaller (to the limit of optimum physical performance) to parallel with the ground.

This has nothing to do with the action of any upper body muscles, including (but not limited to) the abdominals. Rather, it is due to the fact that there's a hip angle that results in maximal power output (which, BTW, happens to be shifter to a smaller value in cyclists and speed skaters vs. untrained persons).

acoggan · #64 11-08.-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by BtonRider

It seems that most people wave their hands when it comes to giving evidence for their argument, so let me demonstate what a reference is supposed to look like.

And as a scientist, I'm sure you also know how to search PubMed for publications by various authors, including those working in this particular field (i.e., exercise physiology). You might wish to do so before continuing this discussion.

RapDaddyo · #65 11-08.-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by BtonRider

I guarantee (if you put everything out in both cases) you'll put more power to the pedals when your torso-hip angle is smaller (to the limit of optimum physical performance) to parallel with the ground.

Out of curiosity, what's your FTP? BTW, my FTP is 325W, I'm 63 and I never lift weights.

Felt_Rider · #66 11-08.-2006

The flip side:

This would be like me going over to Musclemayem.com where many IFBB Professional are members and suggesting to newbie bodybuilders preparing for competition, "If you want to gain some real muscle size I suggest incorporating about 4 to 6 hours of endurance training."

The way I look at this in laymen's terms is if you can recover from the specific activity load (cycling in this case) are you pushing the limits of adaptation? To me as an athlete one should be trying to push the limit (progressive training) at each training session. I personally believe that one is either in a progressive mode or is in a detraining mode. As a competitor one should be motivated to push close to the brink of over reaching. ("It's killing me thread" is all about this focused progressive style of training)

So again if you plan a competitive goal to win or to excel past former personal goals is it best to concentrate on a progressive load or lighten the load in order to incorporate other types of training? If you incorporate other types of training one cannot "naturally" push to those limits. I have confessed on other threads that I pushed with medical assistance to push the progressive load and that was with specific training. At that point even with drugs I would not have been as sucessful with recovery as I was if I had put in other types of distractive training. (if that makes sense

)

frenchyge · #67 11-08.-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider

Happened to me this week and its turning out to be a huge setback for my cycling goals as I have not been able to train on the spin bike and probably will not be able ride this weekend.

Bummer. You need to stick to your KK and stay out of the gym. That place is a killer.

Surely your wife will feel sorry enough for you to let you use it now, right?

Edit: is there really a place called Muscle Mayhem? Uggh, that sounds like a real meat market.

Felt_Rider · #68 11-08.-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenchyge

Bummer. You need to stick to your KK and stay out of the gym. That place is a killer.

I'm a glutton for punishment

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenchyge

Surely your wife will feel sorry enough for you to let you use it now, right?

Not an ounce.

Although she did give me a massage last night.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenchyge

Edit: is there really a place called Muscle Mayhem? Uggh, that sounds like a real meat market.

There are some very knowledeable people on that site. The pros will not answer questions for the most part, but there are those like Rapdaddyo that do give some great advice.

frenchyge · #69 11-08.-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider

There are some very knowledeable people on that site. The pros will not answer questions for the most part, but there are those like Rapdaddyo that do give some great advice.

Rapdaddyo hangs out in Muscle Mayhem?!?

I was just kidding before and not trying to disparage the posters there -- the name just struck me as kind of, um..... meaty. I'm sure they're as knowledgeable, helpful, and fanatical as we are here.

Felt_Rider · #70 11-08.-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenchyge

Rapdaddyo hangs out in Muscle Mayhem?!?

He won't confess,but is an "in the closet 900 lbs squatter"

RapDaddyo · #71 11-08.-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider

He won't confess,but is an "in the closet 900 lbs squatter"

Uh oh, secret's out.

Actually, I haven't had time for too many squats lately, as my PowerCrank and SE intervals are taking up so much time.

BtonRider · #72 11-08.-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

And as a scientist, I'm sure you also know how to search PubMed for publications by various authors, including those working in this particular field (i.e., exercise physiology). You might wish to do so before continuing this discussion.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I stand corrected on one point. The abdominal strength does affect breathing. That's something I hadn't realized before. Here are some articles that describe how abdominal fatigue can affect respiration and/or sprint performance.

Verges S, Lenherr O, Haner AC, Schulz C, Spengler CM.Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol. 2006 Oct 26

Verges S, Notter D, Spengler CM. Respir Physiol Neurobiol. 2006 Jan 16;

Verges S, Schulz C, Perret C, Spengler CM.Muscle Nerve. 2006 Oct;34(4):423-30.

"Thus, abdominal muscle fatigue may also contribute to exercise limitation, especially when expiratory resistance is increased"

Felt_Rider · #73 11-08.-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by RapDaddyo

Uh oh, secret's out.

Actually, I haven't had time for too many squats lately, as my PowerCrank and SE intervals are taking up so much time.

I thought Powercranks could increase one's 1 rep squat max. by 25%?

jamesstout · #74 11-08.-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by BtonRider

You just pegged one of my biggest complaints about Carmichael. He (like you) site "recent research", but fails to site it. I'm a scientist so I appreciate references, since they can help solidify one's argument. Unfortunately, It seems that most people wave their hands when it comes to giving evidence for their argument, so let me demonstate what a reference is supposed to look like.

Izquierdo M et al. J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Feb;17(1):129-39. "These data indicate that strength training results in a significant improvement in maximal and submaximal endurance during the first 8 weeks of strength training in both age groups." The paper does state it depends on the conditioning of the subject, so that supports your argument that the fittness of the subject is important. My problem is, I don't know if I'm "fit/trained" by the standards of this study or the ones you refer to, so why not use weight training to help me. If I'm not "fit/trained" I'll benifit. If I am "fit/trained," wieght training won't hurt me unless I put on unnecessary weight.

If you know of a paper that contradicts this one I'd like to read it.

I think you just inadvertently made the best point about weight/resistance training. I've done weight training for 12 years and I've never been injured. Yet when I took up running I was injured in the first 6 months. The difference was my coaching. Sticking to a WELL DESIGNED program is just as important in weight training as it is in cycling. It's crucial to progress slowly in weight training since tendons don't grow as quickly as muscle. I will conceed that cycling is more forgiving when someone overdoes it, though.

yeah but you can really screw yourself if you overdo the cycling

otb4evr · #75 11-08.-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesstout

yeah but you can really screw yourself if you overdo the cycling

The only way I can think of screwing yourself physically, is if you ramp the intensity/volume up too quick.

But then again if you do this in any sport, you will screw yourself up...

Jim
(an ex-winter-weights-kind-of-guy)

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