Leg Speed - Page 3

Well given that there is only one acceleration required and that is to reach sub-maximal speeds, that's not a surprise.
I don't agree. In a crit/road race you are seeking to reach maximal velocity at times, something you don't come close to in a pursuit.
Maybe, but I'm not sure they are necessarily linked. My level of aerobic fitness is rarely a limiter of my ability to generate peak power numbers in a road race/crit.

How do you determine peak velocity?

So during a crit or points race how often can you get within 50watts of your peak power output?

Hamish Ferguson
Cycing Coach

Would be nice if you did me the courtesy of trying to understand my argument and backing up your counter point with real evidence.

Can you prove that Bettini, Boonen and Vos came close to their peak power wattage or do they have such well developed aerobic capacities that their anaerobic ability is still in better nick than the opposition in the last 200m of a 3-6hr road race.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

I did say peak power, not velocity here. But if were to measure peak velocity, I would be talking about speeds attained in sprints (not rolling down hill!) as measured by the PM, which are generally maximal compared to speeds attained in pursuits - which was my first point.

But I forgot to say before - I agree - Andy's presentation is really interesting. I have learned a lot from what he has compiled in that ppt.
Dunno really, I don't keep a running tally. I have set peak power PBs in several crits though over the last 12-18 months, so it can't be that infrequently. Then I beat it somewhere else (like track training), then in another crit I reset the mark etc. It doesn't mean that my peak power lasts very long though - that's a different matter where my aerobic condition does have an impact. Sometimes the way crits pan out you won't hit peak power (e.g. get boxed in, or forced to chase someone who goes real early or trying to win by break away, or you're working for a mate....).

Points racing is different - I wouldn't necessarily expect (or want) to see peak power numbers as that may not be my race strategy. But in normal scratch racing, sure plenty of times. Last night I did it 3 times in a scratch race, keirin heat and keirin final with numbers within 50W of my normal peak (for this season). These numbers regularly exceed my peak for last season.

Other races last night were a wheelrace and two enduro slugfests so not much chance to lay out peak powers (think an elimination with 40-50 riders on a 460 metre outdoor track and a 40 rider 12km scratch race at 48km/h avg after 6 other races).

But I see where you're coming from - if your are aerobically fitter, you will arrive at the pointy end fresh enough to use your punch (or have a clear enough head to know how to use it wisely).

Sounds like an interesting observable question. What is the relationship between one's peak power (e.g., 5s MMP) and one's cumulative fatigue (e.g., TSS)?

You said the above, that improving NM power is even less important for road races. Yet clearly, many of the biggest races in the world, i.e...world championships, spring classics, are decided by sprints.

I was clear in my original post that aerobic ability is #1 when it comes to training priorities for road races:

So let's, for a minute, go with the idea that near the end of a road race, a rider sees a drop in her or his neuromuscular power. That from all the riding they've done to get to the last 250 meters of the race. You would agree with that I assume? It is sensible I think.

Well I believe it is better to have a 1500 watt sprint and lose 400 watts over the course of a race from fatigue, than start with a 900 watt sprint and lose 50 watts.
If the above were untrue, then I think Hoste & Hincapie would have won some spring classics instead of Tom Boonen beating both of them easily. You have to have the aerobic engine to get to the last 250 m in a position to win, but at that point, winning is decided by your sprint ability and smarts.

I didn't say don't train sprints only that the priority for any roadie, crit or track endurance rider is aerobic. All my riders do some form of sprint or NM training all year round however bang for buck they should make sure they have the endurance to get to the finish to make the most of their sprint first!

You are assuming that NM power determines the final sprint at the end of a road race. I would counter (and have limited power files as evidence) that most people won't come close to their peak power at the end of a 3-6hour road race.

Otherwise we would see top track sprinters win more road races and crits. And we don't. They wouldn't make it to the finish to unleash their 2000+ peak wattages. Heck I don't see many of our local sprinters make it to the end of an 8000m event. We used to see sprinters win the National 15000m event but these guys couldn't crack 11sec for 200m (World Standard is 9.8-10.2sec).

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

This is to be expected. A Keirin is a sprint event where you try an do as little as posisble to the last moment and unleash top power. As for a scratch race it depends how it plays out. Through tactics one can get to the finish having done no turns and be in the best position to unleash their final sprint. Howver if the Endurace Riders have anything to do with it or in a road race with hills you won't have that luxury.

This is my point. I don't think any endurance rider expects to get an armchair ride in the World Points, Scratch and Madison events.

I trained my Kilo riders one year with a high number of 50m standing starts and 100m jumps and 150m flying efforts. Great NM power and lightening fast starts. All were toast by 500m and their Kilo times were hopeless. I would only prioritise 5sec power at any time in the season if I was a sprint, Keirin, 500m TT or Team Sprint rider.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

This is a strawman. Where have I said that one hits peak power when fatigued?


Yet another strawman. Where have I said that track sprinters should win road races?







I already said that several times, or did you skip over that part of my posts?




I believe a maximal 10-second sprint is primarly fueled by the Phosphate energy system. One best improves ATP/PCr stores by doing sprint work, and possibly weights, not aerobic work or level 4 intervals, etc.

You seem to think something else is more important than NM power in determining who wins the final 10 second sprint. So what energy system
do you propose provides the supply for and decides the maximal 10 second effort at the end of a race?

Also, you said this:

So if, as you put it, NM power is less than neglibible for road races and crits - why do you have your athletes do sprints? I would think athletes should work on things that have more than a neglible effect on their events....

You can have the last word here, I've made my point.

Hamish, did you coach any of the juniors at the Oceania Track Champs? I saw some great performances from some of the young NZ guys, including a fiery and fantastic bronze medal final which NZer Ed Dawkins won against Aussie Jason 'Angry Eyes' Holloway (I could watch that guy sprint all day...)

There were also some great Kilo's by NZ guys (not world class yet, but young guys with good potential), second and third.

If you did coach there are you still in town? Send me a PM...

Well not all keirins go that way. Sprints seem to be getting longer. Depends on grade too a little.
But you asked me about peak numbers in points racing so I thought perhaps you were expecting something different?

I could generate high peak numbers in a points race but my strategy may suggest that's not necessarily a good idea.

Bad time of year. My juniors have School exams. Not quite sure how the U19s who went wangled it.

Eddie is looking very good. He is based out of Invercargill so has the indoor track at his disposal. Elijah May is a first year senior so watch this space!

HF

In my opinion, the ability to pedal at high RPM at low power is simply an indication of how efficient and coordinated the rider is. If you want to improve your highest rpm one way to do it is to train with PowerCranks which will improve your loaded and unloaded pedaling coordination.

Two anecdotes. A masters trackie improved his top end rpm after 6 years with PowerCranks (nothing said this would come fast or easy) from 174 to 245. He can now sustain a cadence of 202. Another PC user, in this case a young 13 yo girl who had been on PC's for 2 years was the youngest person ever invited to the OTC and while there had an unloaded cadence test done. She was able to achieve the highest cadence ever reached by a female of any age at this facility, 255 rpm.

There may be other ways to improve this ability, but PC's is one way that available to you.

Frank
PowerCranks

"The plural of anecdote is not evidence."

No, it only takes a single anecdote to be evidence. The plural of anecdote is simply more evidence. What the plural of anecdote is not, is proof. :-)

Frank