Leg Speed

Hi...

As the title implies, I hope to get some suggestions on how to best improve/increase my leg speed. This is specifically for sprinting and that sort of training.

Today while doing a 20-sprint workout, in the midst of a series of standing starts, I could sense precisely that my legs were simply not turning fast enough to hit my usual numbers. After several attempts and more concentration I was back where I usually am.

While I don't know all the specifics, I do know enough to realize this is more of a constraint on my sprint performance than force (kudos to Andy as well for that point).

I'd also like to know if it is better to do before sprints, after, or on a different day entirely - more or less, how it should fit in with training.

Anyway, I already have one suggestion each from RD and Alex, so if anyone has others, please do share them.

One of the problems with a road bike for this type of work is the variance between gears is quite large (typically chosen by changing the rear cog selection). On a fixie, we change the chainring before changing the rear cog, which provides much smaller variation in gearing. Usually you will train in smaller fixed gear and gradually increase the size of the gear while trying to maximise the cadence each step of the way. Gear doesn't go up until you can reproduce the max cadence. This might be done through the course of a track racing season.

Another tool is to use gradients as we described before to reduce the load required to get up to speed in the first place. On a track we use the banking. Another tool is motorpacing - which reduces the power required to ride at high speed. But most of this doesn't help you I suppose.

If on a road bike then leg speed can be worked on by trainer/roller efforts at high leg speed. The trick is to gradually introduce increasing load over the course of a training block / season. Only up the load once you can max out cadence at the current load. Requires a resistance unit with fine graduations.

I can spin 200+rpm with minimal load on a trainer but on the track I struggle to do 170 using the banking with a small gear *~81"). But then I'm not training to be a match sprinter

Also pretty sure FGF would have posts on the topic, so worth a search.

Ok in truth I don’t know if your lying or not but it seems that everyone has a world class numbers on this forum. Is there a lot of pros or really good riders on this forum or are there a lot of people full of it. Last time I checked 200+ rpm was like 1 out of 1000



I'm not saying your lying it just seems like everyone has a real cocky side to them.



I can hit high numbers 2 but I don't mention it. That and I am a Cat 3 but still can hit high numbers. Thus proving that there not important.

You shouldn't need anything but a small gear and a flat road to practice high spin drills. I'll never know the exact benefit, but my original mentor (John Allis) had me do high spin drills shortly after we met. He told me to do a few on every ride, just basically get in a small gear on the flat and spin it up as high as I could and try to hold it as long as possible. Initially, I hopped in the saddle and they helped me to understand that the cause of hopping in the saddle was pushing all the way through the bottom of the stroke. Once I learned to just push through from ~1 to ~5 o'clock, I stopped hopping and smoothed out. It took me longer to learn to apply very much downforce with each stroke at high rpms and I honestly think it's more of a coordination thing between my brain and my legs than it is about strength. As rpms go up and up, it gets harder and harder to coordinate my leg muscles to push down forcefully at just the right time and then be ready with the other leg to do the same thing so quickly afterwards (e.g., at 180rpm, you're coordinating a leg push 6x per second).

First, Alex is a trackie and 200rpm is not that unusual for trackies since they are gear-limited. Second, I don't think he was boasting at all. In fact, I thought that his main point was the differential between his spin rate with minimal load on a trainer (200) with his spin rate on the track under load (170).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fastguppy I'm not saying your lying it just seems like everyone has a real cocky side to them.

I have seen ride files from most of the regular posters on this forum and I don't think that either lying or boasting or being cocky is what they're all about. I know it's not what Alex is about. He's got a lot more important things to do such as getting ready for nationals.

Alex - I understand what you mean about gearing and limitations of a road bike vis-a-vis a fixie. Back to the specific training though, so I would let's suppose, start in a very small gear. Is there a given rpm (and time at that rpm) that I should aim for - maybe 150? 175? or even 200?

Also if I understood correctly, you start with a very small gear, but then move up to a larger cog once you hit your stated target e.g...180rpms?

Rap - believe it or not, I think I can relate to what you specifically said about bouncing and why it happens. I often concentrate on pushing down with significant force on the pedals, but at times have noticed I'm much smoother when I keep the range of force rather small....about 1 to 5 o'clock like you said. It seems counterintuitive, but then it makes things smoother. I really believe that it is a function of coordination and neural operation rather than strength or anything like that.

Do you have a suggestion for how much of this kind of leg speed work to do? Oh and would you advise it be done before or after sprinting? You don't have any 1 hr leg speed work = + ## watts at peak power forumlas ala ftp do ya ?

FWIW, I have no idea what Alex is like in his day to day. At least on this forum though, if he were arrogant or cocky, then I doubt he'd be answering questions from a beginner like me.

Since I'm not sure there is any physiological adaptation that results from these high spin drills, I'm at a loss to suggest how often or how much to do them. I honestly believe the main benefit is figuring out how to coordinate the brain and the leg muscles. Many people call this muscle memory, erroneously in my opinion because clearly the muscles have no ability to do anything independently of what the brain tells them to do. [If muscle memory had any validity, we'd hook people up to golf swing machines for several hours a day and turn out Tiger Woods lookalikes every day.] I don't think you need to be particularly fresh to do them and they aren't really very stressful until you begin to do your full power sprints at high cadence. So, I'd say to do a few on each ride until you get comfortable turning a high cadence smoothly. Then you can gradually begin to apply more leg force. BTW, if you try these off the saddle with the standard bike tilt, tell your neighbors to get the children and dogs off the street because you need a lot of real estate on both sides. If there was ever a drill to figure out how coordinated one is, it is to try and turn ~170rpm off the saddle with 15 degree bike tilt on each stroke. Have fun.

Well I remember at the OTC (a very good track race) can only hit like 197 and he was on the world track team.



However you sound like a good racer to me, its not that I think you lying you guys just put me to shame. A lot of you. I'm thinking a lot of you are really good. Am I not right?



By the way good luck at nationals next year at nats.

This is why I have a problem with the commonly used term "mashing," because to me the term mashing implies a long, slow downstroke whereas the term that comes to mind when I think of my stroke is "snapping," because what I'm trying to do is snap my leg through 3 o'clock on the downstroke and then back off as quickly as possible. I tell each of my legs when they get to 5 o'clock, "Okay, you'd better rest now because I need you again in less than half a second."

Right, just plug me into the Mear's sisters (either one!) training bikes and I'll be doing flying 200's in 11 seconds no problem.

Seriously though, I think I can easily incorporate these into every ride. I'm noticing my best sprints are now coming from lead-out/at speed situations, rather than standing starts - not surprisingly, my leg speed is much higher and I'm in the optimal cadence range quickly.

Plus the torque needed to sprint once you are already at 28+ mph is not very high as compared with a standing start. Thus, I'm beginning to think leg speed is much more important than I previously imagined.

About adaptation, like you, I really can't say one way or another. Somewhere though, it escapes me where, I read that it has something to do with training muscles for very rapid muscle firing/contraction/(insert term here!). I'm sure someone else has a more concise explanation?

You know Rap, I could start a serious discussion on the exact psychological ramifications of a person talking to their legs, but I figure it is best left unmentioned!

Oh, I have a running dialogue with my legs. It's sometimes adversarial, but more often than not it can be characterized as, "Beg, beg, beg."

200 cadence isn't that exceptional. I can spin up to 180 very comfortably for a long time, when I really want to go crazy My polar HRM cannot record my cadence (it goes up to 220). 200 plus doesn't seem hard to me.

It does help to start as a junior and learn to ride restricted gears, for oldies just taking up the sport they will probably never need 150+ on there cadence tool.

No boasting or arrogance intended in what I say. I'm a masters track enduro rider. Re-read what I wrote - I'm making the point that I have S L O W leg speed when under load, which is my limiter (if I wanted to be a match sprinter, which I don't, despite how much fun it is - I simply ain't fast enough).

Less than 170 rpm is pretty unexceptional for track match sprint riders (indeed you probably aren't one if you can't generate that cadence under load). And let's not forget we are talking about short duration efforts of a handful of seconds here.

For longer races (which I do) then it is much less than that. For reference I looked up the last track scratch race I did (7.5km), we averaged 50.7 km/h, I was on a 49x14 gear = 116rpm average. Two younger guys I know were on 50x15 = 122rpm avg. Pretty typical on the track, no boasting here. These are numbers replicated on velodromes around the world every day by thousands of club track riders.

Sprints in these races are typically 64-65km/h = 148rpm for my gearing (156 for my young mates).

Anyone can spin pretty quick without load - indeed my former coach has dozens of files of pretty ordinary joe blow club riders (including me) that can generate such peak cadences with minimal load. That was my point. She's a 50+ masters rider herself and can spin that fast. It is pretty common.

If training to do this is the specific adaptation sought, then start by spinning at that pace, then gradually introduce the load. The neural conditioning is what's required, so all the components fire at the right time in the right order. Then learn to do it with increasing load.

When riding a fixed gear there is only one way to go faster - pedal faster!

Changing gears is for people who can't decide!

Cool, thanks. I'm not an exceptional rider by any stretch, just an ordinary joe blow trying to make the most of what I been given. I post my numbers because it helps me and others learn. I do however have a brain and tend to use it when racing.

197rpm under actual track conditions is excellent no matter what the gear, not surprised he was on world's team. (at that peak cadence even a tiny 48x16 - 81" gear is 74km/h! and that would mean a 200m fly in the sub 10.5 sec range). I am so far away from that it's not funny.

Data on the blog.

So, with all the talk about pedalling smoothness and such, is the thought that 'leg speed training' is really just technique practice, or are there physiological adaptations that produce improvements in leg speed?