Aerobic condition / are we doing too much speedwork? - Page 3

ric_stern/RST · #31 08-15.-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by TTer
Ric, what kind of level are you at now, or have you been at? Did/do you road race or TT?

What's your VO2max (I assume you've had the opportunity to test in the lab) and what's your LT/VO2max power?

How has training gone for you since been a junior? Much success, or have you been too busy studying to dedicate time to training? Just interested to know your personal success.

I've been a 2nd cat rider a few times, almost been a 1st cat (not quite enough points). I've raced abroard, and was once daft enough to ride two weeks of the Tour de France in front of the pros (supposedly, this was a holiday). i've TTed at every distance from 1km to 12hrs and have a PB of 58 something for 25 and 22:48 for a 10 on a standard road bike with no aero anything.

Won a couple of TTs/HCs and a best of 3rd place in RRs.

My VO2 max last time i was tested in a lab, was 65 mL/kg/min, with a best MAP of 409 W (20 W/min increment; SRM Science). LT power was around 240 W, with 25m TT power of 290 W.

Currently, about 5% below these figures. Raced twice this year, both finishes in the group behind the winning break (a few secs down in both cases).

I no longer TT!

Just an average racer really.
Ric

Aztec · #32 08-15.-2003

OK, I must be doubly-dense and cheated through my MBA! ;-)

Here's what I'm really struggling with. To improve VO2 optimally, we need to be working in short sessions/intervals near max heartrate. To improve LT, we need to work at/above LT which is somewhere below the VO2 effort level. But... doesn't working VO2 max then work your LT at the same time? Is the issue that VO2 sessions are limited to such short duration that they do not benefit LT enough, and therefore additional lower-intensity work must be done specifically for the LT?

Would the order of intensity be as follows?
VO2 max
TT power
LT work
LSD

When I rode a local hill, I was at 175+ bpm out of about 190 max, for 70 minutes. What was I working (besides my rear off)?

Does it make sense to do 10 min sessions at LT (165 bpm?) on each of 4 training days, with perhaps each containing a series of 3-5 VO2 max efforts for a few minutes? Then add some lower-intensity work to bring those rides up to 60-90 mins?

zakeen · #33 08-16.-2003

Speed work(intervals) must be done! No Questions.

Cycling is a hard sport for many reasons and very different to a running race. Running race is from a to b, on your limits!

Cycling is a to b saving as much energy as possible for the finish, tactics comes into it, drafting, etc..........

Dont spend to much time on paper! These values most apply to TT and Running races.

I said in another thread that intervals are a great race simulation. and you can the best TT but you will always get beaten in a road race. Because in a TT you heart rate sits on one level and stays there for the entire TT. In a road race you heart rate goes up and down and up and down and up and down!

Doing interval training makes your heart rate, recovery better( after a sprint with good interval work you heart rate will drop much faster then an untrained interval rider!)

Also when a rider attacks the trained interval riders heart rate will peak quicker and respond better!

You still must do the other session, just dont leave out the interval work!

2LAP · #34 08-18.-2003

Originally posted by Aztec
OK, I must be doubly-dense and cheated through my MBA! ;-)

Here's what I'm really struggling with. To improve VO2 optimally, we need to be working in short sessions/intervals near max heartrate. To improve LT, we need to work at/above LT which is somewhere below the VO2 effort level.

>>Correct.

But... doesn't working VO2 max then work your LT at the same time?

>>Yes, but only to a limited extent.

Is the issue that VO2 sessions are limited to such short duration that they do not benefit LT enough, and therefore additional lower-intensity work must be done specifically for the LT?

>>Correct. And LT sessions are not intense enough for maximal development of VO2.

Would the order of intensity be as follows?
VO2 max
TT power
LT work
LSD

>>Yes. Below LSD would be recovery rides. Above VO2 max would be various sprints.

When I rode a local hill, I was at 175+ bpm out of about 190 max, for 70 minutes. What was I working (besides my rear off)?

>>You would for sure have been between TT power and LT. Riding at LT feels surprisingly easy and there is reletivly little lactate accumulated. Riding at TT power feels like your riding a TT, as Ric has pointed out you may accumulate quite a lot of lactate.

>>How long are your hills?

Does it make sense to do 10 min sessions at LT (165 bpm?) on each of 4 training days, with perhaps each containing a series of 3-5 VO2 max efforts for a few minutes?

>>Yes it's fine to place efforts into a longer ride (perhaps not optimal). But do 2 or 3 VO2 max efforts in a single ride. Do the LT efforts in a different session, puting in 10 to 20 minutes into 3 sessions. When doing this you need to make sure the quality is there.

>>Remember that the point of doing intervals is to accumulate more time at an intensity than you could during a single effort. For example, if motivated you could hold VO2 max for 6 to 8 minutes before becoming fatigued (not recomened for training); by building up blocks of 3 to 5 minutes you could spend upto 20 minutes at this intensity before experiancing the same fatigue.

Then add some lower-intensity work to bring those rides up to 60-90 mins?

>>Yes, get the efforts out early (after a warm up) so that you are still fresh and can enjoy the rest of your ride at a slower pace.

2LAP · #35 08-18.-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by zakeen
Speed work(intervals) must be done! No Questions.

Cycling is a hard sport for many reasons and very different to a running race. Running race is from a to b, on your limits!

Cycling is a to b saving as much energy as possible for the finish, tactics comes into it, drafting, etc..........

Dont spend to much time on paper! These values most apply to TT and Running races.

I said in another thread that intervals are a great race simulation. and you can the best TT but you will always get beaten in a road race. Because in a TT you heart rate sits on one level and stays there for the entire TT. In a road race you heart rate goes up and down and up and down and up and down!

Doing interval training makes your heart rate, recovery better( after a sprint with good interval work you heart rate will drop much faster then an untrained interval rider!)

Also when a rider attacks the trained interval riders heart rate will peak quicker and respond better!

You still must do the other session, just dont leave out the interval work!

I agree with you there, but I think that we were talking about aerobic capacity and TT's; rather than sprints and road races. This is a whole new kettle of fish and just as interesting.

Wouldn't you agree that a RR rider needs a good aerobic capacity to 'get round the event' while the ability to sprint, ride above LT and ride above VO2 (i.e. anaerobic capacity) is important for tactical movements?

Spider1977 · #36 08-18.-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by J-MAT
TT'er:

I think you are on the right track with what you came across. Basically all I do is stuff like that and speedwork, with most of it aerobic riding .

The vast majority of TT effort is aerobic and the more power you can generate below your acid limit the better. Months ago, I talked about basically the same thing in the "average speed" post.

I got the idea from an ABCC interview with Sean Yates, and he said he never uses anything bigger than a 42x14 on a fixed gear or a 53x17 on a road bike, always keeping constant power output by maintaining 80-100 rpm at all times. He only got on his Lotus once a month to actually do a TT, and he was doing 50-52 kmh for 10/25's.

A 42x14 sounds weak to many riders, yet many riders would struggle to maintain 95-105 rpm in that gear for 30 minutes, let alone for an hours training ride. Yates said it's not easy to maintain 22-23 mph for an hour, or maintain over 80 rpm in a 53x17. It's true. Those gears sound small but if you force yourself to just hold 80-100 rpm, you will develop a nice power range and improve aerobic fitness.

Obviously, the gear needs to be tailored to the individual, but try this method to see how well it works. You could handle a 42x14. With this gear, go out for an hour and try to hold over 90+ rpm the entire ride. My max is currently 180 bpm, and for me, this gear puts me in the 150's at around 95-98 rpm on mostly flat/somewhat lumpy terrain with fairly strong crosswinds. Perceived exertion is moderately hard.

Whatever I do, I don't let the cadence fall below 90 rpm in a 42x14. On a 53x17, I don't let the cadence go below 85 rpm. That's the key, never letting your cadence drop below 80 rpm no matter what gear or terrain you use. Shift down on the hills to maintain at least 80+ rpm. It's ok to generate some lactate on a climb, but the purpose of the ride is to ride "clean," without generating very much acid.

These gears sound light, but go out for an hours training once warmed up and hold the rpms indicated in those gears. Ride the gears like you are on a fixed-gear bike, meaning maintain tension on the pedals when going downhill, no matter how uncomfortable it is.

The first thing to go when you get tired is your legspeed, and it's really tempting to go into a 53x15 when your legs are tired of spinning fast in a 17 cog, but that's one of the ways it will build your power, forcing you turn the cranks at high cadence, even when you are tired.

These rides are not all out TT efforts, you should be breathing above a conversational pace, but below a TT effort. Just think, if you could ride "easy" like this at 25 mph (101 rpm/53x17)for an hour or so. You would be able to ride a 28+ mph TT without too much difficulty, and maybe even faster!!!

I bounce back and forth between riding like this and doing shorter intervals/speedwork, always allowing for proper recovery in between workouts. Currently, enroute to an interval workout, I'll go slower in a little easier gear, maybe a 42x15 or 42x17 if it's real windy.

Lactic acid is toxic. You have to generate it to tolerate it, but overall, try to minimize it, and don't expose yourself to high acid levels too often. Allow for long recoveries (10+ minutes) between intervals to allow for lactate clearance between efforts. This will help ensure that the next interval can be ridden with maximum quality.

Speedwork is like salt. A little bit goes a long way, not much more will spoil the whole meal. In my experience, 3-5 minute intervals are ridden too frequently and with too little recovery between efforts (1:1 work/rest ratio). They are very important, just don't do a lot too often.

Yates also said his brother made a "comeback" after 10 years off the bike. He did 30 minutes every other day in plimsolls, on 53x17, uphill and down, and in one month, he got down to a 52 minute 25!!!

Good luck!!!

J-Mat, I think you've answered my request for help on another thread. Thanks

Markster · #37 08-18.-2003

Intervals do replicate a road race situation well, but you can't ignore them for TT riding either. Although HR is often fairly constant on a flat TT you need to be constantly tweaking the power, feeling for the point where you are just coping with the 'lactate'. This inevitably leads to you going over threshold occasionally, and the ability to recover from this quickly is crucial. Add in the start, short climbs, getting round corners (especially U-turns), and the power profile of a TT looks a lot more complicated. Also, you just can't train for a decent length of time at constant TT pace, it takes far too much mental energy - mental energy that you should be using in racing. Intervals at TT pace and above allow you to become physically and mentally accustomed to the demands of any type of racing without melting your brain.

Having said that I think it's easy to get obsessive about intervals, and i've often ended up trying to do too much. I try and see intervals now as an addition to endurance rides - as you get nearer targets you phase a few efforts into endurance rides, but never so many that you have to dig really deep to complete them. I feel this is much healthier and safer than the way I used to train, where I tried to fit a bit of endurance work around killer interval sessions and was always on the verge of overtraining.

Something I've been doing this year (inc. the winter) which seems to work well is planning some sort of hard effort in all endurance rides. This can be a few sprints, a hard climbs, anything really. I find this really helps mentally as it breaks up long tedious rides, and it also stops you getting stuck at one 'tourist' speed. The focus of the ride is still on aerobic endurance, but you deliberately spice it up a little bit.

Aztec · #38 08-18.-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by 2LAP
Originally posted by Aztec

When I rode a local hill, I was at 175+ bpm out of about 190 max, for 70 minutes. What was I working (besides my rear off)?

>>You would for sure have been between TT power and LT. Riding at LT feels surprisingly easy and there is reletivly little lactate accumulated. Riding at TT power feels like your riding a TT, as Ric has pointed out you may accumulate quite a lot of lactate.

>>How long are your hills?

Does it make sense to do 10 min sessions at LT (165 bpm?) on each of 4 training days, with perhaps each containing a series of 3-5 VO2 max efforts for a few minutes?

>>Yes it's fine to place efforts into a longer ride (perhaps not optimal). But do 2 or 3 VO2 max efforts in a single ride. Do the LT efforts in a different session, puting in 10 to 20 minutes into 3 sessions. When doing this you need to make sure the quality is there.

>>Remember that the point of doing intervals is to accumulate more time at an intensity than you could during a single effort. For example, if motivated you could hold VO2 max for 6 to 8 minutes before becoming fatigued (not recomened for training); by building up blocks of 3 to 5 minutes you could spend upto 20 minutes at this intensity before experiancing the same fatigue.

Then add some lower-intensity work to bring those rides up to 60-90 mins?

>>Yes, get the efforts out early (after a warm up) so that you are still fresh and can enjoy the rest of your ride at a slower pace.

First, thanks 2LAP & Ric for helping me through this.

The hills in my area range in length up to a ~9-mile, 2600 ft climb with some rollers (Mt Tamalpais in Marin County, CA).

My lactate threshold must be fairly high as 165+ bpm feels like I'm just starting to do some work. I *really* struggle to stay under even 150. 175 or so feels like I'm earning my speed, but I can still talk normally. I can't wait to get tested so I can figure out at what level to be training.

I've been thinking of doing TTs as training rides (probably coming in dead last!), but given the above that sounds like it's pushing too hard and unproductive?

I think I'll start working 2x5 mins VO2 max (est HR = 180?) and 1x20 mins LT (est HR = 165?) intervals into my 4-5 rides/week, with the remainder of the time spent at ~140-150 bpm.

Eventually, I'm going to need a coach. I'd like to figure out what works/doesn't work for me, and establish a respectable level of fitness before I go that route. I'd sure like to be able to ride points races, miss-n-outs, etc., on the track. Otherwise that v-drome 60 miles south of me is wasted...

nyterider03 · #39 08-18.-2003

Go out and get "the Ultimate Ride" by Chris Carmichael. It worked for Lance.

Aztec · #40 08-18.-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by nyterider03
Go out and get "the Ultimate Ride" by Chris Carmichael. It worked for Lance.

Lance = genetic freak. I'm guessing pretty much anything would work for him!

Shibumi · #41 08-22.-2003

This is a good thread!

I read on another thread a while back that the very high intensity speed work should be regarded as the icing on the cake. This year, I've done lots of LT work, and for the last 3 months, 3 TTs per week. So, with my season drawing to a close, maybe it is time for a bit of icing? What would anyone recommend I do in terms of short speed intervals?

ric_stern/RST · #42 08-22.-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Shibumi
This is a good thread!

I read on another thread a while back that the very high intensity speed work should be regarded as the icing on the cake. This year, I've done lots of LT work, and for the last 3 months, 3 TTs per week. So, with my season drawing to a close, maybe it is time for a bit of icing? What would anyone recommend I do in terms of short speed intervals?

Try some 4-minute intervals, see here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/trainingstern.shtml

ric

zakeen · #43 08-22.-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by 2LAP
Wouldn't you agree that a RR rider needs a good aerobic capacity to 'get round the event' while the ability to sprint, ride above LT and ride above VO2 (i.e. anaerobic capacity) is important for tactical movements?

I just had a interesting thought! oh what you said above!

you state

Quote:

Originally posted by 2LAP
RR rider needs a good aerobic capacity to 'get round the event'.

I am thinking about the Pros so I think I am answering a different question. Pros dont need that, ok wrongly said, they have enough of that and done need the term

Quote:

Originally posted by 2LAP
to 'get round the event'.

But I guess from what you said is very correct from a different level rider, not as highly trained.

ric_stern/RST · #44 08-22.-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by zakeen
I just had a interesting thought! oh what you said above!

you state

I am thinking about the Pros so I think I am answering a different question. Pros dont need that, ok wrongly said, they have enough of that and done need the term

But I guess from what you said is very correct from a different level rider, not as highly trained.

Are you saying pro's don't need or don't have to improve their VO2 max and LT?

Ric

zakeen · #45 08-22.-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by 2LAP
Wouldn't you agree that a RR rider needs a good aerobic capacity to 'get round the event'

Yes I am saying that PROs dont train to 'get around the event'

'get around the event' = Expression = I believe he means to finish the even(I could be wrong)

AND Yes PROs dont train to finish races, They Train to RACE races.

So when a new rider comes alone and has some questions of improvement areas he would be looking at a different program then a trained Pro

PROs dont train to finish races, they have those miles already in the bank(legs(another EXPRESSION)) Where a beginner will train to finish a race!

dissagree?

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