Aerobic condition / are we doing too much speedwork? - Page 8

I'm a big fan of recovery rides, they are great physiologicaly and psychologicaly!

__________________
www.cyclingforums.com

Just to jump back to the lactate threshold argument.

Viewing an old thread within the road racing section, there is a thread about the Vo2 max of professional riders.

It explains that Eddy Merckx had a maximum of 77, but more importantly was his ability to mantain such a high percentage of it. His lactate threshold was just below his Vo2 max and as such he was able to dominate the race for a long period of time.

I think this is the main point that posts from 'Roadie Scum' is getting at.

The Vo2 is seen often as the gold standard for endurance performance, yet Eddy's is not that great when compared to the 90+ figures of Lemond, Mcgee and even juniors like Will Walker.
But i know who is the better rider.

Also interesting to note is the performance of Will Walker. His reported V02 on cyclingnews of 94 is more evidence to support the lactate threshold importance. Will is competitive with any elite professional within a criterium or sub three hour race, but will NOT be competitive in a longer road race. He has the absolute aerobic and anaerobic power to keep with (and of often beat) the professionals, but lacks the appropriate development to sustain this for the length of a road race.

Will is only 18 and as such will continue to build on his current ability. From my own personal experience, years of training is what makes the difference. As a 19 yr old now, my aerobic power is the same (eg my hill climb VAM is the same) and my Vo2 is similar, but i have improved markedly in road races. I believe it is because my lactate threshold has improved. A HR that in the past sent me lactic, no longer does so, and therefore I survive more of the race in a aerobic state.

I've no idea whether this is actually EMs Vo2 max, however, the upper limit for VO2 being sustained is ~ 90% of VO2 max for ~ 1-hr. Being able to sustain that high percentage is not necessarily an 'important' trait of a pro cyclist. In other words less able cyclists can maintain such a percentage. I've managed to ride at ~90% for an hour (when i was a 2nd category racer).

Thus having a high LT and TT power and MAP (and Vo2 max) are important.

Quote:

The Vo2 is seen often as the gold standard for endurance performance, yet Eddy's is not that great when compared to the 90+ figures of Lemond, Mcgee and even juniors like Will Walker. But i know who is the better rider.

If you have a high % LT/TTpower of VO2 max, but a low VO2 max you won't be any good, i.e., my VO2 max at one point was 65 mL/kg/min and able to sustain ~ 90%. In pro terms i'm useless.

Thus, either bike racing has significantly improved since Merckx, his VO2 max is wrong (or was perhaps measured at altitude or out of season, or the equipment wasn't calibrated)

Quote:

Also interesting to note is the performance of Will Walker. His reported V02 on cyclingnews of 94 is more evidence to support the lactate threshold importance. Will is competitive with any elite professional within a criterium or sub three hour race, but will NOT be competitive in a longer road race. He has the absolute aerobic and anaerobic power to keep with (and of often beat) the professionals, but lacks the appropriate development to sustain this for the length of a road race.

it's possible more useful to talk about the power produced at the end of an incremental test to exhaustion, rather than the actual expired gases VO2 max figure, as this is really only important to physiologists/sports scientists

Quote:

Will is only 18 and as such will continue to build on his current ability. From my own personal experience, years of training is what makes the difference. As a 19 yr old now, my aerobic power is the same (eg my hill climb VAM is the same) and my Vo2 is similar, but i have improved markedly in road races. I believe it is because my lactate threshold has improved. A HR that in the past sent me lactic, no longer does so, and therefore I survive more of the race in a aerobic state.

This doesn't make sense. Presumably the power that you can manage uphill is measure of your best average over the duration of the climb, this is directly related to your LT. HR has nothing much to do with LT. LT is a measure of blood lactate and the workload that (power in cycling, velocity in running) elicits that lactate level. Thus, if your LT improved so would your climbing ability (power).

Ric

__________________
http://www.cyclecoach.com

[This doesn't make sense. Presumably the power that you can manage uphill is measure of your best average over the duration of the climb, this is directly related to your LT. HR has nothing much to do with LT. LT is a measure of blood lactate and the workload that (power in cycling, velocity in running) elicits that lactate level. Thus, if your LT improved so would your climbing ability (power).

Ric [/B][/QUOTE]

Climbing speed and LT are not the same even though they related. A sub hour climbing effort is performed at an intensity above your lactate threshold. So not just your LT is important. The anaerobic components allow you to access other energy systems when you are over your LT and to achieve a higher power output. This would be similar to a 10 or 25 TT.

A road race on the other hand is performed at intensities that is mostly below or around LT. If your power at LT is increased and the race is over similar speed you would be at an advantage by a reduction in time you have accessed your anaerobic systems.

May you not be underestimating the ability of athletes to maintain a high percentage of V02 at LT. The original thread was refering to a runner who could maintain a intensity of 95% of his velocity at V02 Max.

The power that can be achieved at LT, is highly correlated with efforts of at least several minutes.

Power at LT is quite a low intensity, and can be sustained for up to several hours plus. It's about 15 to 20 % less power than that, which can be sustained for ~1-hr.

Thus power when climbing (assuming the hill is at least a couiple of minutes) is highly correlated with LT. However, that wasn't the point of my confusion. If your LT has increased (as you stated) then power will have increased too (which you said hasn't), and this is what doesn't make sense.



this is completely untrue, unless wherever you are has strange road races that are unlike any i've ever seen from many countries. road racing is highly variable in nature, and power output varies from 0 to ~ 1000+ W. On the other hand average power from a road race will often be below power at LT. You are correct that, the higher your LT (and VO2 max) the less stress there will be

Ric

__________________
http://www.cyclecoach.com

I agree that LT and climbing speed are strongly correlated. But is the reason that VAM is not higher due to my reduction in anaerobic fitness. Excuse my lack of scientific terminology. What i am getting at is, in the past to climb a 15 min ascent i could maintain a hr of 190 bpm. This could be repeated three times to show some endurance training at that intensity. A few years later i can still get up in 15 mins, but it is acheived at 180 bpm. If i attempt to ride at 190 bpm i will blow up in five minutes.

My training has changed over the last year or so to be predominately E1 or E2, with very little at 180bpm+.

On the other hand my ability to ride between 170 and 180 bpm has vastly improved. My last major race involved me spending 2 hrs 15 mins in that heart rate band (yes it hurt).

Do you think that my body has changed in its abilty to process HIGH amounts of lactate?




this is completely untrue, unless wherever you are has strange road races that are unlike any i've ever seen from many countries. road racing is highly variable in nature, and power output varies from 0 to ~ 1000+ W. On the other hand average power from a road race will often be below power at LT. You are correct that, the higher your LT (and VO2 max) the less stress there will be

Ric [/B][/QUOTE]


What i was emphasising was the MOSTLY part. although 0 W and 1000 watts do occur they are not the most common wattages. but i think we both understand each other that the less time you spend over your LT, the more energy etc you will have for the closing stages of the race.