Where does power come from? - Page 3

Originally Posted by Fday

quick time trialing involves lots of things that all must be good at the same time to have an excellent result. Strength, efficiency, and aerodynamics must all be there.

Originally Posted by acoggan

Except perhaps for the kilometer and 500 m, strength is not an important determinant of TT performance.

Originally Posted by Fday

I guess it depends upon what you mean by strength. One doesn't need 500 lb squat strength to do a good time trial. But, we must consider the rider who can push 21 lbs stronger than the one who can only push 18 or 20, especially if they have to do it 6000 times an hour. So, strength does matter, just not in the maximum sense of the word. It is the combination of strength and endurance that matters. Lots of strength with no endurance means little. Little strength with lots of endurance means little. A good combination of both is a winning combination.

Frank

Originally Posted by Fday

I would like to point out that quick time trialing involves lots of things that all must be good at the same time to have an excellent result. Strength, efficiency, and aerodynamics must all be there. Cadel Evans may have worked on his strength but he also started training on PowerCranks several years ago, so it would appear he has also been working on efficiency.

On a flat course, weight has almost zero influence on how fast one can go on a bike. It only affects how fast one can accelerate. Anyhow, larger riders have more muscle packed into just a little more surface area, so they tend to have better aerodynamics for their power, and since the weight is not a factor, per se, in slowing them down, if the time trial is long enough such that the longer time it takes them to get up to speed can be negated, they will generally be better time trialists, on average, than lighter people.

If someone has good power for their weight then but results are disappointing it is probably because they have either poor aerodynamics or they are wasting energy because they can't ride a straight line.

Frank

Originally Posted by Fday

strength does matter, just not in the maximum sense of the word.

Originally Posted by jamesstout

seeing as i have a fixed bone mass/ non usable mass (non-usable for cycling) if i was to increase my muscle mass (providing they are bike relevant muscles) wouldnt that increase my W/kilo?

Originally Posted by acoggan

In the present context, there is only one valid definition of strength, which is the maximal force generating capacity of a muscle (or muscle group(s)).

Originally Posted by Fday

Phooey. while it is necessary for us to define what we are talking about it is not true that the definition of strength when used in a cycling context can only mean one thing "the maximal force generating capacity of a muscle (or muscle groups)".

That is a silly definition that might apply to power lifters but has nothing to do with cyclists. Even track riders have to do several hundred repetitions (so never come close to their maximum force capacity during competition) and you have admitted that "muscle strength" may play a role for these athletes. Strength when compared to endurance must always be taken into account when talking about "strength" in cyclists.

Originally Posted by Fday

Phooey. while it is necessary for us to define what we are talking about it is not true that the definition of strength when used in a cycling context can only mean one thing "the maximal force generating capacity of a muscle (or muscle groups)".

Originally Posted by Fday

That is a silly definition that might apply to power lifters but has nothing to do with cyclists. Even track riders have to do several hundred repetitions (so never come close to their maximum force capacity during competition) and you have admitted that "muscle strength" may play a role for these athletes.

Originally Posted by jamesstout

just apoint - seeing as i have a fixed bone mass/ non usable mass (non-usable for cycling) if i was to increase my muscle mass (providing they are bike relevant muscles) wouldnt that increase my W/kilo?

Originally Posted by acoggan

In a word, no.

Originally Posted by Fday

Possibly, but only if you trained those muscles to have cycling endurance. In general, increasing muscle mass will not help your cycling. The muscles you already have are likely more than adequate for most types of racing, if you train them properly and use them better.

Originally Posted by acoggan

The precise communication of precise concepts requires the precise use of precise terminology. Anything else just results in unnecessary confusion.



That's because performance in a kilometer or 500 m is heavily influenced by the time required to accelerate up to speed, an act which must be accomplished from an initial cadence of zero. In contrast, strength is not an important determinant of performance in something like a flying 200 m TT (although somebody who can do a really fast flying 200 m is likely to be stronger than average).

Originally Posted by jamesstout

why not if my power increases by 10% and my mass increases by <10% my watts/kilo increases

Originally Posted by Fday

Why don't we define cycling strength as the maximum force that can be applied through a distance of 14 inches 90 times a minute for an hour.