Weight Lifting & Cycling?? - Page 2

Originally posted Aztec, i respond with >>

Actually, Ric, I want to differ with you on one point, and I'm uncertain about another.

1) No difference in strength among elite endurance cyclists and untrained people. I would be willing to bet that cyclists are WEAKER in the upper body than untrained civilians!!! The elite riders are truly waif-like. I think there's value to resistance training, even if it doesn't improve performance. Posture benefits alone (i.e., from training your upper back, back, hamstrings, etc.) are worth it. But that's not the question the original poster asked.

>>Almost certainly true, but i haven't looked for much data on this. What i was referring to is *leg* strength being the same or weaker than matched controls.


2) You mentioned that sprinters need hypertrophy. Is this really accurate? I would think that hypertrophy wouldn't be the answer, but rather the rider simply wants more power (which doesn't always require more mass). I think of the powerlifters who increase their squat poundages dramatically over time and yet don't add much mass (i.e., 135 lb guys squatting 450, etc).

>>(Track) Sprinters require as much power as possible, with world class sprinters needing ~ 2000+ watts. Whilst, the need is to only produce power (neglecting tactics in this discussion), they do need as much muscle as possible to help generate the massive powers required

ric

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Force production (and hence strength) is related to muscle cross sectional area, muscle volume and specific area (cross sectional area taking into account muscle fiber direction). Powerlifters have to conform to weight categories (I think) with the largest (i.e. longest limbs (levers) and largest muscles) lifting most. You do have a point though; muscle size does not determine strength as there are many factors, but muscle size does limit the muscles strength.

That statement, though quite possibly true, should not be misinterpretted to mean that there is no benefit to overall health or fitness with weight training.

I think Ric has made that point/exception/clarification in other threads before.

I'm a huge proponent, so no argument from me.

But I always thought cycling was low wieghts and high reps! so as I stated before doing low weigths and high reps would benifit me. as I still believe it has

I always thought I was special! JOKE!

I am not untrained and thats for sure!!

Would someone be untrained if they were not at there best??

Well you are right! I have no facts on paper, only results. I dont know which one is important for you but I know which one is important for me!

I have never ever done any tests on myself, dont know my Vo2max,LT,etc.... I dont really want to either!

I dont want to be in a race and see my heart rate and say:

Oh my god I am over my LT level! I will blow any second!
or
this is my max I cant go any faster!

It creates limits. I have no limits because I dont know them.

But I do a lot of one legs on the mag in a hard gear. I have built up and I do about 500 in a row, with mag setting the hardest and in 53,19. This is a form of the weights I do. Low weights and high reps! I found this a huge difference in my performance. Also situps squats and calf rasies. but you telling me this is wrong!

I am in complete shock someone at your level at coaching just says NO. Sure you have done tests and have results but have you made the right tests in all areas?? There are so many different ways of doing weights did you test every single different type of weight session for cycling, or just one or two??

The core body must be very riged(did I spell that right?)or strong,stiff) if you fail in this department it is like riding a soft frame and you lose power.(Wish my bike frame was a little less stiff! I have broken 4 this year!) I believe you must do some form of situps to strengthen this!

am I right in saying you truely believe that all training should be done on a bike for a road racer??

zakeen wrote, i replied with >>

But I always thought cycling was low wieghts and high reps! so as I stated before doing low weigths and high reps would benifit me. as I still believe it has

>>Cycling (endurance), is low force and high reps. It's quite possible to actually calculate the forces at the pedal (if you're interested). As a ballpark figure, at ~ 32 km/hr on level ground, an average sized (male) will need to apply < 9 kg of force. At world record pace for the 4-km pursuit, that force will rise to about 35 kg. I'm positive that any of us can produce those forces, and the equivalent power outputs. At theWR 4km pursuit pace, the power that Boardman produced was ~ 520 W. Admitedly, some (generally small, e.g., < 60kg) untrained (doesn't exercise) or recreational females, might not be able to produce that power (but obviously, the womens pursuit record will require substantially less power). Therefore, just about everyone else will be able to produce and exceed these powers (and the associated forces).

>>a lot of the adaptations that occur within the muscle with training are only *specific* to the joint angle and velocity at which they're trained. One of the classic examples is to get someone to do some weight training using a specific exercise. Over a period of time, they rapidly increase the amount of weight that they can lift. Then, after a training period, they are asked to perform another exercise, that uses the same muscle but in a different manner. When this compared to the pre weight training control, there is no difference. They're using the same muscle, but at different velocities and angles of movement there's no crossover -- this ties in with your theory of why XC skiers who are fitter than cyclist X (fitness measured by e.g., VO2 max, LT), but the less fit cyclist beats the fitter skier.

>>even with the exercises are very similar, there's no cross over to the main sport



I always thought I was special! JOKE!

>>i'm sure you are! we all are :-)


I am not untrained and thats for sure!!



Would someone be untrained if they were not at there best??

>>when i mention untrained i mean either no exercise whatsoever, or maybe goes to the gym (e.g.) twice a month


Well you are right! I have no facts on paper, only results. I dont know which one is important for you but I know which one is important for me!

>>I understand, realise and fully appreciate that results are what are important to an athlete (i'm one too!).

>>However, the idea of having some concrete facts (e.g., power output) is that you can eliminate variables that affect performance. For, e.g., my PB for a 10mile TT was done at a lower power output than a slightly slower TT. This was due to differences in environmental conditions that weren't readily apparent. Without the power data i wouldn't have known which effort was really my 'best' one.


I have never ever done any tests on myself, dont know my Vo2max,LT,etc.... I dont really want to either!

I dont want to be in a race and see my heart rate and say:

Oh my god I am over my LT level! I will blow any second!
or
this is my max I cant go any faster!

It creates limits. I have no limits because I dont know them.

>>i feel that this is a misnomer. I don't understand why you feel that knowing various facts limits you in some way?

>>we all ride to our limits, and i suspect that you limit yourself too. However, rather than using data obtained via e.g., a power meter or HR monitor, you use perceived exertion.

>>if you (or i or anyone!) was to somehow 'unplug' our brains and actually ride at our limits, we'd have to stop after about 60-secs. Very quickly, we learn that we have to pace ourselves, whether this is done with meters or with a brain makes little or no difference.

>>even with (e.g.) a power meter, it's often used *with* perceived exertion levels, so as your fitness increases you ride at a higher power output.



But I do a lot of one legs on the mag in a hard gear. I have built up and I do about 500 in a row, with mag setting the hardest and in 53,19. This is a form of the weights I do. Low weights and high reps! I found this a huge difference in my performance.

>>Are you talking about one - legged cycle training? This has been discussed fairly recently in another thread. I don't believe that there's any benefit to this mode of exercise (unless you only have one leg).

>>When you mentioned weights, i assumed that you meant with some form of gym equipment. However, it's highly unlikely that one legged cycling will increase your strength. As the velocity of movement increases (e.g., pedalling a bike versus doing squats), the force applied decreases. This is known as Hills Force - Velocity Curve. As the velocity increases, muscles can't fire at a fast enough rate to produce the force needed.

>>It's perhaps easier to think of it like this: if you lie down on the floor with your feet facing an inmovable object such as a wall, and then press against it with all your strength, the force will be far higher than that, that can be achieved by pressing on the pedals (even at low cadences such as 30 revs/min)


Also situps squats and calf rasies. but you telling me this is wrong!

>>yes

I am in complete shock someone at your level at coaching just says NO. Sure you have done tests and have results but have you made the right tests in all areas?? There are so many different ways of doing weights did you test every single different type of weight session for cycling, or just one or two??

>>i've looked at the research within this area. There's stacks of it. This is what is known as 'Specificity'. As previously mentioned there's little or no crossover in different exercise modalities. You've also made that assumption with the XC skier.


The core body must be very riged(did I spell that right?)or strong,stiff) if you fail in this department it is like riding a soft frame and you lose power.(Wish my bike frame was a little less stiff! I have broken 4 this year!) I believe you must do some form of situps to strengthen this!

am I right in saying you truely believe that all training should be done on a bike for a road racer??

>>Yes. There's some exceptions to this however, e.g., you crash and break a leg, and in the rehab process you might need to do weights to offset any atrophy that occured while you were immobolised.

>>There's *some* evidence that weight training might also offset some clinical conditions, e.g., osteoporosis. However, the research is somewhat equivocal on this and it might not be the case.

Ric

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http://www.cyclecoach.com

Sorry dont understand that word!

I cant believe you said that! This is one of my KEYS to training! I have done a full weeks of one legs! and nothing else! Completing this create the perfect pedally strock! Of pushing down and pulling up! You do heaps of this and ride up hill sitting down, you will fly up! Its the only way to force the leg to pull up while cycling!

I have never done weights in a gym! Low weight high reps are done with the body or on the bike! I would not recoment someone to go to the gym!

Really??

Does riding up a hill increase strength??

I know some people that cant do 100 cycles of one leg! because of the weakness of the pull section in there pedalling!

You dont think one leg would increase the ability to do more cycles?? which would increase the strenght.

I have seen so many Pro riders race on there heart rates. They see a heart rate and freak out! Or they are not doing well and see there heart rate is low and pull out saying I just could not get my heart rate up!

It seems when the body is pushing itself and the brain just wants any excuss to have a break or stop! this is were I think the mind is so much more powerful then the body! But when the mind knows of a limit the human respects that limits and accepts the second position because the mind is telling them, thats all your good enough to do, cause thats what your test results say!

Think about it.............its going right of the topic!

I do find you would have problems understanding this, as you and I are totally different in the way we think!

If I am pissing you off please let me know as that is not my intention here, if I have I am sorry! If you want me to stop! Tell me!

Its funny thou!
You make money from coaching!
I make money from racing!

But, as you go by paper and as I go on personal experiences and what works for me, we will never come to an agreement. So I dont mind ending it!

But you really think there is no point in one legged cycling????? I truely find that amazing and I will have to find that thread you mentioned to have a read!! I can feel the differences!

zakeen wrote, i replied with >>

I cant believe you said that! This is one of my KEYS to training! I have done a full weeks of one legs! and nothing else! Completing this create the perfect pedally strock! Of pushing down and pulling up! You do heaps of this and ride up hill sitting down, you will fly up! Its the only way to force the leg to pull up while cycling!

>>There research on how people pedal by Coyle et al, and Martin et al. Using force instrumented pedals, research shows that riders push down, generating greatest forces around 3 o'clock, and don't apply much, if any force on the upstroke (recovery phase). The work by Coyle, showed that when two groups of cyclists were compared (elite versus regional level), the elite group generated more force on the downstroke, and less on the upstroke, i.e., the lower fitness riders produced more force on the upstroke.

>>all that actually matters (assuming you want to be as fit as possible) is that you generate more power


I have never done weights in a gym! Low weight high reps are done with the body or on the bike! I would not recoment someone to go to the gym!

>>usually when people talk about weights they mean lifting weights in a gym (etc).

Really??
>>strength is the maximum force or tension generated by a muscle or group of muscles. Maximum forces can *only* be generated at very low or zero velocity. The velocity of pedalling is way to fast to induce these changes (and thus forces are very low).


Does riding up a hill increase strength??

>>No. It might (it should) increase fitness by forcing you to ride at higher power outputs, but in people who are trained it won't increase strength (unless perhaps you have some form of functional disability)

I know some people that cant do 100 cycles of one leg! because of the weakness of the pull section in there pedalling!

You dont think one leg would increase the ability to do more cycles?? which would increase the strenght.

>>strength has a specific definition (see above, and previously in the thread).


I have seen so many Pro riders race on there heart rates. They see a heart rate and freak out! Or they are not doing well and see there heart rate is low and pull out saying I just could not get my heart rate up!

>>If you exceed some sort of level you *will* crack (eventually). Sure, with a bit of encouragement you can get people to do a bit more work, but if you go to hard you will eventually fatigue (no matter how much you mentally try to overcome the pain).


It seems when the body is pushing itself and the brain just wants any excuss to have a break or stop! this is were I think the mind is so much more powerful then the body! But when the mind knows of a limit the human respects that limits and accepts the second position because the mind is telling them, thats all your good enough to do, cause thats what your test results say!

>>You're right most of us don't like (intense) pain and we want to ease up. A lot of us fight through and battle the pain. However, it's impossible to completely ignore the pain and/or keep racing. If *you* could put the pain to one side and not accept your limits then surely, you'd have been able to win the Tour de France.


Think about it.............its going right of the topic!

I do find you would have problems understanding this, as you and I are totally different in the way we think!

>>i race, i know pain. :-)

If I am pissing you off please let me know as that is not my intention here, if I have I am sorry! If you want me to stop! Tell me!

>>not at all

Its funny thou!
You make money from coaching!
I make money from racing!

But, as you go by paper and as I go on personal experiences and what works for me, we will never come to an agreement. So I dont mind ending it!

>>Just because i've tested certain physiological criteria and know certain things about myself, doesn't mean i don't try to push my limits. I'm continually trying to improve and push that bit harder and set myself new goals. I just like to do it in a quantifiable way

But you really think there is no point in one legged cycling????? I truely find that amazing and I will have to find that thread you mentioned to have a read!! I can feel the differences!

>>I don't see any point to it whatsoever, unless you're one legged, or compete in one legged bike races.

Ric

__________________
http://www.cyclecoach.com

From the literature study I did at the end of 2003 I concluded that weight training, 30 reps at rather high speed [and more guidelines], is more effective for trained bike riders than for untrained bike riders. For untrained the biggest progress can be made by increasing the mitochondria density and capitalisation degree by endurance training. For more trained bike riders the increase of the MLSS power output is more determining for increasing their race performance. This MLSS power output can be increased by combining endurance, interval and weight training.

From the study I did the group of riders who increase the amount of endurance training [10 hrs / week] (intervals included) tends to have lower max power output during a short time all out test. The riders which replaced 4.5 hrs of endurance by weight training tens to increase max power output during this short time all out test.

So I advise (and lean how to do) weight training in the all season training programmes. I’m convinced the Rabobank TT3 team is taking profit from that.

The best to you www.webtrainer.nl

whilst i don't disagree that weight training will possibly help short high intensity exercise, how would that help performance in road/endurance cycling, which isn't going to be limited by 30-sec efforts?

in the study, did the control group complete short high intensity efforts (similar to that tested?).

as force isn't a limiting factor in endurance cycling, and most people can generate the power of elite riders, but are instead limited by their ability to sustain sub maximal or maximal efforts (rather than peak efforts).

In your study, during the short term power test, wasn't cadence limited to 50 revs/min, or am i thinking of another study?

Ric

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http://www.cyclecoach.com

Ric, I will show you some information on how riders ride. It is not the best example (from my own) but this screenshots of SRM-files will point out why I'm convinced weight training is of use even when riding is endurance work.

In both recordings a sample time of 2 seconds is used.

The first screenshot is of a relative easy ride. First part I ride alone, after 15 minutes with another guy. You see once a while an over 600 watt peaks.



I agree that you don't need a lot of force during the ride but during the 600 plus watt you need force, special when it is accelerating away form a traffic light or something like that.

But when you look to the file of the group ride you see all the time peaks of 600 plus watt. So you need a lot of time a decent amount of force.



And Ric I can tell you that it is in a race even much more stochastic power output what you see here. I’m convinced that weight training for this reason alone is needed in a training programme for bike racers even when it are long “endurance” efforts they have to do in the race.

The best to you, www.webtrainer.nl

I thought it helped too!

So you train the Robobank TT3, I never got the chance to race that Robobank TT3. I was meant to in the Tour Of Austria, where I believe they started. I was injured from a chain snapping while making a sprint 1 week before!

However I raced the Robobank TT1 in the Sachsen Tour(Germany), Do you also coach this team??

Zakeen, we split the functions. I'm doing the training and testing of the 20 riders and Nico Verhoeven is the team director of them.

Did you have a good recuperation afther your crash from the chain snapping.

Zakeen, when you subscribe to my service I will provide you with information I gave you above. I'm sorry for the mistake I made by mixing up the group and individual training file.

Good luck to you, www.webtrainer.nl

I'm not sure whether you realise, but i do know how riders ride!

Whilst, undoubtedly 600 W from stationary requires more force at the pedals than when already moving, it doesn't actually require that much force, i.e., any healthy, age and gender matched person (who doesn't suffer from a functional disability) can easily exceed this power.

Even (male) riders who are *completely* useless at sprinting can generate more power than that! [assuming they don't have a disability]. elite world class athletes can approach or reach the 600 W in an incremental test to exhaustion.

During racing it's unlikely you'll have to accelerate to peak power (which would be way over 600 W) from a stationary effort (excluding track sprints).

As you've pointed out, forces are higher at zero or low velocity (as I previously mentioned in Hills Force Velocity Curve), however we can all accelerate away from traffic lights without requiring us to do weight training.

I'm not sure if you're thinking that i'm thinking we don't need to generate high power outputs. That's not the case, because we do. What i'm saying, and the majority of the research supports my suggestion is that there's no transfer (or very little) from weight training to cycling, without massive hypertrophy (i.e., as in track sprinters).

I've no doubt that weight training *will* increase peak power (but with massive hypertrophy), however, and importantly, peak power and e.g., STP (30-sec all-out?) can also be trained very well with just on the bike training.

I can't find any research apart from yours that supports your hyopthesis when you look at trained or elite athletes benfitting from weight training (in low fitness/untrained cyclists any exercise is of benefit).

During the last criterium i rode (E/1/2) i made frequent efforts above 550 - 600 W. Forces are low though.

And, even though your power goes quite high (600, 700, 800+ W) in a criterium or road race, that's still not the limiting factor, it's your power at LT, and VO2 max (and peak power for the sprint at the end).

So, i'm not at all convinced that weight training is beneficial to endurance cyclists.

Ric

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http://www.cyclecoach.com

What software are you running there??

I am using the polar and just hate the software(having said that I was a software developer for 4 years before cycling so I can be a little critical!!) It seems to crash a few times a week with XP! anyway..

I dont have the power out put and was thinking of buying one, but if there is a different software that runs everything correctly I would be happy to make a mve accross.