Front blowout, bad crash!! any thoughts on prevention? - Page 2

jsirabella · #16 02-12.-2008

Let me ask a totally off topic question, what is it with crashes and collar bones? It seems everytime someone describe a crash it is always a broken collar bone combined with road rash usually facial...is there something in the way we ride that could be corrected or equipment developed to prevent it?

-Js

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

John, Lot's of good advice above.

Tire pressure doesn't have to be maxed out and in most cases running a bit lower tire pressure actually results in lower rolling resistance. Yeah, that's not intuitive, hard tires feel fast because they jump and bounce at every ripple in the pavement but slightly softer tires roll faster in most structured tests. Visit conti's website for recommendations based on weight, Michelin tends to print that right on the packages for their high end tires.

Also double check for pinched tubes when pumping up tires, a quick reseating of the bead with about 20 psi in the tires is a good habit to get into before pumping them all the way up. And of course check the usual suspects including bad rim tape(flats from the spoke holes), old tires, sidewall slashes, etc.

But the big thing is to use brakes like you would in a car, not all that much and only to maintain a safe speed into corners or in heavy traffic. A hard grip on the front brake all but guarantees a crash in the event of a front blowout. I've had a few front flats on fast descents including a few in your neck of the woods like screaming down South Park road in the Tilden Park, on Tunnel road or out on the Bear Creek loop and it hasn't taken me down yet(knock on wood). Sure it's scary, but if you're not actually heeled over into a corner and you aren't locking up the front brake you can usually roll it to a stop without crashing. The key is not to panic and to have a firm but relaxed grip on the bars, the front end will go crazy with wobbles and you've got to get it under control fast but you can ride out a lot of fast front flats if you've got a bit of straightaway to work with.

You live in a great place to work on descending, countersteering in the corners and overall bike handling at speed. Practice on Tunnel Road, Wildcat Canyon, Redwood Road and all the other fantastic descents right in your back yard. It will get easier with practice and you'll use less and less braking while still being able to hold a safe line in the turns.

Good luck,
Dave

TheDarkLord · #17 02-12.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsirabella

Let me ask a totally off topic question, what is it with crashes and collar bones? It seems everytime someone describe a crash it is always a broken collar bone combined with road rash usually facial...is there something in the way we ride that could be corrected or equipment developed to prevent it?

-Js

First look at the posture when riding a road bike. Then, look at what happens when a crash causes the rider to go over the handlebars. Such crashes do have a predilection to break the collar bone. Road rash is different. It is just that asphalt is a somewhat harsh surface, and even a fall from standstill (e.g. when you are new to clipless pedals) can give rise to pretty nasty road rash.

jsirabella · #18 02-12.-2008

I know what you are saying and I am sure with road rash it is very hard to prevent but I am sure if someone put enough R&D money behind it they could find a fabric
that would be tougher and yet flexible enough for racing to avoid severe road rash. It seems they always seem to worry just about comfort more when it comes to fabric, why not safety?

I agree that it is a postion issue so maybe a piece of very light equipment can be developed to limit the breaking of the collarbone while not giving up too much flexability to the rider.

Just an idea but can be possible??? I see no reason to not try to give max safety to the rider while stil allowing him to get max speed and handling just like a car.

-Js

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkLord

First look at the posture when riding a road bike. Then, look at what happens when a crash causes the rider to go over the handlebars. Such crashes do have a predilection to break the collar bone. Road rash is different. It is just that asphalt is a somewhat harsh surface, and even a fall from standstill (e.g. when you are new to clipless pedals) can give rise to pretty nasty road rash.

Felt_Rider · #19 02-12.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsirabella

I know what you are saying and I am sure with road rash it is very hard to prevent but I am sure if someone put enough R&D money behind it they could find a fabric
that would be tougher and yet flexible enough for racing to avoid severe road rash. It seems they always seem to worry just about comfort more when it comes to fabric, why not safety?

I agree that it is a postion issue so maybe a piece of very light equipment can be developed to limit the breaking of the collarbone while not giving up too much flexability to the rider.

Just an idea but can be possible??? I see no reason to not try to give max safety to the rider while stil allowing him to get max speed and handling just like a car.

-Js

I thought about that after my last crash. Especially since I have now slid on my left hip a few times and surgery to take care of a hematoma once on that hip. I wonder if something like kevlar/lycra material in the hip panels of the shorts would work. It would be expensive I suppose.

Maybe I should learn how to ride a bike instead of falling off them.

TheDarkLord · #20 02-12.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider

I thought about that after my last crash. Especially since I have now slid on my left hip a few times and surgery to take care of a hematoma once on that hip. I wonder if something like kevlar/lycra material in the hip panels of the shorts would work. It would be expensive I suppose.

Maybe I should learn how to ride a bike instead of falling off them.

MTBers wear pads to prevent some injuries. But I don't think there is any protection for the hip. It would indeed be nice to have some protection. My hip hurt for weeks after my last fall, and for a while I was worried that there was some internal injury although nothing was visible outside.

kopride · #21 02-12.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider

kopride, that was pretty accurate for my demise back in September, but I purposely did an endo in the last milliseconds because I could not slow down enough and was headed toward the trees at 40 mph. It was either put the bike down or head into a big oak. I think the oak would have won.

.

I just thought of that scene where Pee Wee Herman flips off the bike and then says: "I meant to do that."

I have seen good enduro riders basically come off the back to avoid a tree. Not sure how it would work with toe clips. If you know how to do a forward roll from judo, etc, that sometimes works on an endo, but it is tricky at 20 mph.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider

My experienced friends told me those are the type of things that you a better rider. What a painful way of learning, but I do find myself braking much like your description now. Before I was a bit more care free and it cost me big time..

That's the way I learned. I did an endo on my road bike in '92, separated shoulder and broken collar bone. I still have the bump and it does make an impression. Lucky for me, no major falls on any motorized vehicle. On a motorcycle zipping through the woods, avoiding that panic is critical. New riders who have their hands committed totally to the throttle, will throttle up in a panic situation right into the tree. MSF and most enduro schools really preach two fingers on the brake lever at all times and left foot near the brake. It's different in a paceline when you don't want anyone's hands near a brake, but for recreational riding and riding around time, I find myself with both my hands ready to brake.

jsirabella · #22 02-12.-2008

Expensive or not, I think there is something there to consider for the manufacturers or for someone to think about to develop new equipment/clothing for racing.

It is better to lean how not to crash...like you said but lets face it we all do and most not even our fault so when it happens inevitabily better safe. I remember the first thing a rider told me, it is not will you fall but when.

-Js

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkLord

MTBers wear pads to prevent some injuries. But I don't think there is any protection for the hip. It would indeed be nice to have some protection. My hip hurt for weeks after my last fall, and for a while I was worried that there was some internal injury although nothing was visible outside.

Felt_Rider · #23 02-12.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsirabella

Expensive or not, I think there is something there to consider for the manufacturers or for someone to think about to develop new equipment/clothing for racing.

It is better to lean how not to crash...like you said but lets face it we all do and most not even our fault so when it happens inevitabily better safe. I remember the first thing a rider told me, it is not will you fall but when.

-Js

I've heard that one now for about 6 months

I guess all that have heard about it feel like they need to console me.

On a side note and I am not exaggerating that cyclists in my area have been spreading my crash around like it is folklore. I seriously overheard two guys talking about a cyclist that almost died coming off Burnt Mountain and as they were talking I realized it was about me. Well I don't know how close I came to dying, but I did not have to go to the hospital and did all the wound treatment and rehab (still in progress) myself. I just think it is funny to hear the story growing by the weeks.

Of course my LBS that supports me displayed my torn and bloody gear in their shop so that didn't help curb the rumors.

kopride · #24 02-12.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsirabella

I know what you are saying and I am sure with road rash it is very hard to prevent but I am sure if someone put enough R&D money behind it they could find a fabric
that would be tougher and yet flexible enough for racing to avoid severe road rash. It seems they always seem to worry just about comfort more when it comes to fabric, why not safety?

I agree that it is a postion issue so maybe a piece of very light equipment can be developed to limit the breaking of the collarbone while not giving up too much flexability to the rider.

Just an idea but can be possible??? I see no reason to not try to give max safety to the rider while stil allowing him to get max speed and handling just like a car.

-Js

Two things, First, you need to break out the Inzer shirt, no road rash if you are wearing that.

Second, the collar bone does not usually break from direct trauma. You fall directly on an outstretched hand or arm and the energy transferred up the arm exceeds the threshold for the ac joint (collarbone), which isn't really high, and depending upon the force vector, you will get a shoulder separation as well, or vice versa. Your best bet is to train yourself not to throw the arm out, which is almost impossible because it is so instinctual. You could learn a forward roll like in Judo, but even then, it is a darn tricky trick at 20 mph.

Body Armour developed for motorcycles does not prevent ac separations. The goal is to prevent focal penetrating trauma by making the surface area exposed to the trauma greater. Same force, but over greater area. For example a good chest and back protector, if you fall on a rock, it could eliminate penatrating trauma, could increase the surface area of the forces, and could prevent extreme flexion of the vertabrae of the type that could cause cord trauma. To do that it, it does reduce mobility. There is almost nothing out there that isn't at least a few pounds, so it would be highly unlikely anyone other than downhill mtb'ers would be interested. And even still knee pads, elbow pads, hip pads, reduce the effects of contusions, but forces significant enough to cause fractures are still going to damage joints, ligaments and bones, with or without pads. Even for motorcycles, a lot of the protective gear is really garbage, a roost protector really is just protecting you from rocks being thrown off by other cyclists. Honda has developed an airbag system for the Gold wing. It would be interesting to see the research.

Further, there is nothing out there to prevent a neck injury, which is the true catastrophic threat.

paskyhawk · #25 02-12.-2008

I'm not sure I buy the overheating thing. I think there is just too much mass and too little heat from the brake to heat up the entire rim that much not to mention the air cooling at 38 MPH. I think people are transferring their experience with car brakes. I've touched the wheels after a long decent with braking and can't feel a temperature change. I betting on a cord break in the tire bead or tube pinched under the bead.

Rich

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkLord

How long was the descent? Any possibility that the rim overheated from braking? That could also cause a blowout.

TheDarkLord · #26 02-12.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by paskyhawk

I'm not sure I buy the overheating thing. I think there is just too much mass and too little heat from the brake to heat up the entire rim that much. I think people are transferring their experience with car brakes. I've touched the wheels after a long decent with braking and can't feel a temperature change. I betting on a cord break in the tire bead or tube pinched under the bead.

Rich

No, rim overheating is quite common in cycling, during long descents. Even when you have disk brakes, when you have a long descent, the disk fluid (for hydraulic brakes) can boil off leaving you with no braking power. There is a reason why they have things called drag brakes, which are drum brakes that are specifically meant for slowing bikes on long descents.

sogood · #27 02-12.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by paskyhawk

I'm not sure I buy the overheating thing. I think there is just too much mass and too little heat from the brake to heat up the entire rim that much not to mention the air cooling at 38 MPH. I think people are transferring their experience with car brakes. I've touched the wheels after a long decent with braking and can't feel a temperature change. I betting on a cord break in the tire bead or tube pinched under the bead.

Staying with the example of car tyres, even driving around without braking can warm up the air within it.

millzebub · #28 02-12.-2008

Hey everyone,
I'm glad this has brought about a discussion on safer riding! Unfortunately I am going under the knife tomorrow morning, so wish me luck!! I will have a titanium plate in my body to keep my bike frame company. I always wanted to be a cyborg

Anyway, just to clarify, in my crash I did not go over the handlebars. I layed it down directly on my right shoulder. In all of my crashes while descending, I haven't had time to extend my arms outward. I just hang on for the slide!!

I guess if I hit something I would go over the bars, but to me it seems unlikely that the front brakes could create that kind of stopping power at 35+mph. I would think the tire would lock up and slide, which seems to be my experience. I tend to have my weight back while descending, however, which may contribute to this rather than flipping the bike??

I was interested in the topic of protective gear. I have read about nano-tech fabric that is flexible under normal conditions but hardens in the event of a hard impact. Here are a few links on this:
http://www.d3o.com/
http://www.tdctrade.com/prodmag/worl...3apparel.htm#1
Pretty cool stuff! I don't know if it would help for road rash but impacts maybe...

John

serpico7 · #29 02-12.-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by millzebub

it is a couple of miles, but I was less than halfway down. I think the rim could definitely have been over heating. this is the kind of descent where it's hard not to go over 30mph. I was riding my front brake with less on the rear. Maybe I should rethink that technique...

Alternate between the front and rear, so that you give each time to cool.

garage sale GT · #30 02-12.-2008

Your sidewall could have already been damaged. Maybe the heating was just enough to let the tube give way.